What if The Vale declared for Robb Stark?

[E-Ro]

Well, technically Tywin could have fallen back to King's Landing at any time. But that would have meant the Lannister cause was good and done. King's Landing was already starving. Add tens of thousands of soldiers and they'd starve that much harder.

It would have given Robb an infinitely stronger bargaining position as well. He'd have Stannis (even with the soldiers he got from Renly) outnumbered, and it would definitely make him the deciding factor of any attack on King's Landing. He could deal with Stannis and support his claim, or become King of the North and marry Myrcella to secure peace with the 'Baratheon' dynasty (after killing Joffrey with his own two hands of course).

With the lannisters pent up in kl tywin would be forced to kick everyone that is not a soldier out earning the hatred of the smallfolk, and robb is free to strike up a deal with the tyrells. I see this ending with a couple of different kingdoms. Marrying myrcella is a possibility if cercei or tywin can talk him into it, nothing would save joff though.

Could RR have withstood assaults though? It seems a pretty strong castle but wer not sure how many men were defending the walls or what shape they were in

Oh, definetly. Riverunn is one of the strongest in the realm. It falls into the siege dont storm category. And the man defending it knows what he is doing, riverunn with food can last a long time.

[Victor227]

Could RR have withstood assaults though? It seems a pretty strong castle but wer not sure how many men were defending the walls or what shape they were in

Well, Jaime never had the walls stormed, and he was there long enough to build siege engines. Even still, would Jaime sit at Riverrun if a Stark/Vale army just smashed Tywin at the Green Fork, or forced him to withdraw to King's Landing? No, he'd either be surrendering (assuming they took Tywin captive), or marching east with all his forces to recover what remained of Tywin's host and march on Robb. And he'd have the bitter Riverlords on his tail every step of the way.

[BranBrokeLegs]

Not really a misconception. If he had the Vale, he wouldn't have needed to go through Walder at all. He could have marched south and turned the Green Fork into a very different kind of battle. What's more, Walder Frey was waiting for the 'winning' side. He may have joined up with Robb regardless of conditions. The Vale coming into the fight doesn't just make this is a regular rebellion, it makes it Robert's Rebellion come again.

Right, the Twins don't control access from the North. They simply lay between the North and the quickest road to Riverrun. Robb wasn't racing to save Ned, he was racing to relieve the siege at Riverrun. With the Vale army in the fray or "frey" of things, you just march down the Greenfork, link up with the Vale forces.

[E-Ro]

The Vale was never meant to help Robb. When the story was meant to be a trilogy Edmure doesn't fuck up, and Robb wins the TWOFK. I believe the Vale was always meant to come into play against the Others. My point of view comes from the fact that Lysa was batshit crazy since the beginning of the story.

ETA: if the Vale did to come Robb the hero wins and the story is over.

Are you sure about this? Robb was supposed to win? That would explain alot, what with the lannister lucking through the war, but I dont think this is correct. Can you please give me a link or quote.

[The Snowman]

Robb's Northern Army: 18 000 Men

Riverlands Army: 12 000 Men?

Vale Army: 20 000 Men

vs Tywin Lannister's maybe 25 000 Men.....yeah Robb would have had to just wait them out. With Renly stopping all trade to King's Landing and the Westerlands cut off by Robb and company the Lannister's were doomed. But Stannis had to have the throne and then that severely weakened Robb's position once Stannis got spanked on the Blackwater by the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, anyway not the focus.

With the aid of the Vale the North/Riverlands would have most likely started to seize control of the Westerlands piece by piece while Renly starved KL and Harrenhal. With their support he would have had to rely on the Frey's so muchand they could also bring men from white harbour into the Vale as reinforcements and the obvious task of supplies. Having th strength of the Vale behind him Robb would have still sent Theon to Pyke however I don't think Balon would be stupid enough to attack the North when they have the Vale to help them re take moat cailin which would have been too hard with enough soldiers.

In the end Robb would have likely 50 000 Men behind him blocking the Westerlands from the Crownlands

Renly has between 90-100 000 Men stopping any food from the Reach or Stormlands reaching the Crownlands

So in essence with the Vale in tow the North is SO much stronger as they have probably 40 000 Men before they reach the Twins and Tywin wouldn't have dared attack that sort of host on the Green Fork and Robb sends out his peace and the lannisters would have to oblige on the trade.

[E-Ro]

Well, Jaime never had the walls stormed, and he was there long enough to build siege engines. Even still, would Jaime sit at Riverrun if a Stark/Vale army just smashed Tywin at the Green Fork, or forced him to withdraw to King's Landing? No, he'd either be surrendering (assuming they took Tywin captive), or marching east with all his forces to recover what remained of Tywin's host and march on Robb. And he'd have the bitter Riverlords on his tail every step of the way.

Jaime is too dumb to surrender, on hearing of his fathers defeat he would throw himself at robbs army and die or get captured, jaime commanding an army is nothing for anyone to worry about, he is no general.(game of thrones jaime, not storm of swords jaime)

[E-Ro]

Anyway, I dont think tywin would even give battle, he would hear of neds death give them back all their prisoners, ice, and offer the north vale and riverlands independence while he deals with stannis and renly. whether he comes back later is anyones geuss.

[The Snowman]

Are you sure about this? Robb was supposed to win? That would explain alot, what with the lannister lucking through the war, but I dont think this is correct. Can you please give me a link or quote.

The Red Wedding was planned from the start so I'd have to agree that Robb was supposed to do his hero arc through Game and win victories and then get betrayed by Walder. That what I can recall of the original plot. Funny how Dany was supposed to land in westeros in the 2nd book and after the 5th she still hasn't really got control over her dragon...yet. In any case the Red Wedding was supposed to be either the ending for book 1 (AGOT) or somewhere early in book 2 (ADWD)

[Fat Mac]

The Vale would have made quite the difference. He probably could have defeated Tywin in a battle, and either taken Lannisport or King's Landing, depending on the route he wanted to take. The Vale has men, money, and from what we can guess great commanders (Yohn Royce ftw).

[E-Ro]

The Red Wedding was planned from the start so I'd have to agree that Robb was supposed to do his hero arc through Game and win victories and then get betrayed by Walder. That what I can recall of the original plot. Funny how Dany was supposed to land in westeros in the 2nd book and after the 5th she still hasn't really got control over her dragon...yet. In any case the Red Wedding was supposed to be either the ending for book 1 (AGOT) or somewhere early in book 2 (ADWD)

LOL. thats what I thought. For dany to land in westeros in book 2 the books would have to be massive.

[E-Ro]

The Vale would have made quite the difference. He probably could have defeated Tywin in a battle, and either taken Lannisport or King's Landing, depending on the route he wanted to take. The Vale has men, money, and from what we can guess great commanders (Yohn Royce ftw).

I think robb could have defeated tywin on the gf without the vale, the only problem was jaime at riverunn could have taken them in the rear.

[Victor227]

Jaime is too dumb to surrender, on hearing of his fathers defeat he would throw himself at robbs army and die or get captured, jaime commanding an army is nothing for anyone to worry about, he is no general.(game of thrones jaime, not storm of swords jaime)

That's a bit of a mischaracterization. He wasn't suicidally reckless, and even if he were, he wouldn't have any choice. He's a member of the Kingsguard, not Tywin's heir.The bannermen wouldn't follow him without Tywin's authority.

[Swordsaint]

Are you sure about this? Robb was supposed to win? That would explain alot, what with the lannister lucking through the war, but I dont think this is correct. Can you please give me a link or quote.

No, I cannot. It's just a theory based on the time scale of the books, and the fact that Lysa was always crazy. As you said, it would also be boring for the hero to have an equal force and just kick everyone's ass.

ETA: I think Robb was always meant to die. Just not at the Red Wedding. I think his death would have pushed the story of the Others along if the books were a trilogy.

[The Snowman]

Anyway, I dont think tywin would even give battle, he would hear of neds death give them back all their prisoners, ice, and offer the north vale and riverlands independence while he deals with stannis and renly. whether he comes back later is anyones geuss.

If Tywin gave peace or accepted peace terms on behalf of Joffrey and Cersei (that would have been a funny seen) and let the Riverlands/North/Vale take Independance while he fought Baratheon brothers then Id say that all Robb had to do then was call more men from the North(by the sheer size of the North there had to be atleast another 20 000 men able to fight) then bring in the Iron Islands (Balon wouldn't be moronic enough to take on the Riverlands/North/Vale...it is Balon but still think he's smarter than that) They could attack the Westerlands while all Renly has to do is march on KL or take on the Westerlands to totally alienate the Crownlands as the Lannisters power base.

By any case the introduction of the Vale forces significantly changes the balance of power in the war as it immediatetly strengthens Robb position and also means that the Westerlands is surrounded. I honestly think that if it came to protecting Casterly Rock and KL Tywin would choose The Rock, he'd have to have Jaime though. The possibilities are endless with the Vale in the war and all to the North and Riverlands favour

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

I think if Tywin knows the Vale is on Robbs site he has to attack Robb before the Northmen link up with the Vale. There probably would have been an epic battle after Whispering Wood. If he managed to defeat Robb he might be able to convince the Vale to stay neutral or they'd go over to Stannis. Possibly he might move to attack the Vale forces instead if he thought he'd have a better chance of victory without leaving KL exposed but he definately could not let the two forces link up.

[E-Ro]

That's a bit of a mischaracterization. He wasn't suicidally reckless, and even if he were, he wouldn't have any choice. He's a member of the Kingsguard, not Tywin's heir.The bannermen wouldn't follow him without Tywin's authority.

He would get very upset, and I do think his army would follow his command. They cant stay at riverunn thats suicide, they cant attack robb, and going to kl means they would be stuck. Do you think his bannermen would leave him and go home though? I cant see that happening. And I cant see jaime surrendering. I really think he would throw himself at robbs army.

[E-Ro]

If Tywin gave peace or accepted peace terms on behalf of Joffrey and Cersei (that would have been a funny seen) and let the Riverlands/North/Vale take Independance while he fought Baratheon brothers then Id say that all Robb had to do then was call more men from the North(by the sheer size of the North there had to be atleast another 20 000 men able to fight) then bring in the Iron Islands (Balon wouldn't be moronic enough to take on the Riverlands/North/Vale...it is Balon but still think he's smarter than that) They could attack the Westerlands while all Renly has to do is march on KL or take on the Westerlands to totally alienate the Crownlands as the Lannisters power base.

By any case the introduction of the Vale forces significantly changes the balance of power in the war as it immediatetly strengthens Robb position and also means that the Westerlands is surrounded. I honestly think that if it came to protecting Casterly Rock and KL Tywin would choose The Rock, he'd have to have Jaime though. The possibilities are endless with the Vale in the war and all to the North and Riverlands favour

I aggree, I can see him abandoning kl and declaring himself king of the west, that would be hilarious to see cercei and jof react to that, they would be forced to leave kl and go west. But tywin would never let joff rule the west.

[Victor227]

Renly's still condemned in this scenario. Unless the Vale uniting under Robb caused him to speed his march to King's Landing and either rush Stannis the instant he sees him, or bypass him entirely, he's still going to be drawn into that fatal encounter.

[E-Ro]

I think if Tywin knows the Vale is on Robbs site he has to attack Robb before the Northmen link up with the Vale. There probably would have been an epic battle after Whispering Wood. If he managed to defeat Robb he might be able to convince the Vale to stay neutral or they'd go over to Stannis. Possibly he might move to attack the Vale forces instead if he thought he'd have a better chance of victory without leaving KL exposed but he definately could not let the two forces link up.

Tywin cannot attack robb with roose bolton shadowing him, roose would harrass the shit out of tywins army and once tywin reached robb roose would take his rear, it would be a massacre. And robb can always go inside riverunn and await the vale, tywins army would be in three parts and it would be another ww. If tywin does not split his army in three robb can come and go as he pleases. Remember after the ww robb has acces to riverunn a great fortress.

[E-Ro]

Renly's still condemned in this scenario. Unless the Vale uniting under Robb caused him to speed his march to King's Landing and either rush Stannis the instant he sees him, or bypass him entirely, he's still going to be drawn into that fatal encounter.

I aggree, and since the tyrells dont like stanis marg falls right into robbs hands. But really this is fun to discuss but would be boring to read, the vale joining robb makes things way to easy.