Help with army numbers?

[Thorin]

I apologise if this sort of thing has been done many times before, I'm working on an RP thing and wondering if people can help me with the numbers in the armies of the great Houses of Westeros.

As far as I can recall the Lannisters had 40,000 at the start of the story, and I *think* Robb had about 20,000 before joining up with the Riverlords.

Anybody have a breakdown of figures? Or even just bits and pieces. If you have further information (like how many Knights, or an approximation at least) it would be very helpful.

[Nudu]

35.000 north

25.000 riverlands

30k vale

40k westerlands

15k isles

20k crownlands

35k stormlands

80k reach

10-15k dorne

İ think.

[maesterted]

i think the numbers in the video are about right

.

[Thorin]

Cheers! Don't suppose you can recall where you read the numbers on the Reach, Crownlands & Dorne?

i think the numbers in the video are about right

.

Cheers!

[Free Northman]

Reach - 80,000

North, Westerlands, Riverlands - 50,000 (The North would take much longer to raise its full force, though, and could not do so in a single army due to logistical issues)

Vale - 40,000

Stormlands - 35,000

Dorne - 25,000

Iron Isles - 20,000

[Foxhound]

Cheers! Don't suppose you can recall where you read the numbers on the Reach, Crownlands & Dorne?

Cheers!

In Clash, Renly's combined army had eighty thousand men at Bitterbridge, with ten thousand in reserve at Highgarden. Dorne is believed to have fifty thousand men, but their strength is actually exaggerated. The Crownland numbers would just be estimates.

[Ponys123]

Depends on what you count. If any man with a weapon of any kind counts as a potential recruit, the figures are in hundreds of thousands, if not millions. If any man who has a maintenance contract with a lord or is trained as a part of the local militia counts, then we're looking at tens to hundreds of thousands for each. If we only count the number of men which can be mustered up and marched off for a campaign, the figure is about half as much. To which we add freelancers, mercenary companies and freeriders.

The point is, we can't really hope to get any accurate figures. However, trying to deduce any practical number from the total estimated population, it's pointless, since a medieval-esque army is not a levee en masse, it will rarely if ever contain a significant portion of the population, unless we're talking medieval-Scotland-small numbers here.

And of course, there is the difference between the number of men that the lord paramount can gather, and the total number of retainers and militiamen of all the lords - the latter tends to be far greater.

[Thorin]

Right, so....

Robb probably had about 35,000 when he marched, but between what was left behind (such as the mountain clans and Lords that didn't commit everything) there was probably another 10-15k fighting men.

The Riverlands have 20/25k but arguably more potential that never got off the ground.

The Westerlands was pretty clear on 40k (and particularly well trained?), but I believe Tywin raised 20k more in freeriders, mercenaries & milita when he needed too.

The Reach has 80k+ and a significant Navy

The Vale has 30/40k?

The Stormlands has 35k

The Crownlands has 20k (estimate) with a significant navy.

Dorne is in the 15 to 20k region.

& lastly the Iron Isles, having also about 15k to 20k (with less archer/mounted capability? Primarily light infantry and the Iron Fleet?)

That seem about right?

Discussing the fleets, what do you think about the Iron Fleet? Is it a raiding fleet or would the modern fleet have the power to directly engage the Reach fleet or the Crownlands fleet?

[Free Northman]

Elio

I just watched your full Youtube discussion on the population of Westeros. Great topic, but I will put it on record that I totally disagree with your low estimate of the North, and look forward to George proving it when another 25,000 Northern troops are raised in Jon's future army.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

North 50,000-60,000

20,000 on short notice with Robb, the rest later or still untapped

Riverlands ~40,000

but most never got of the ground

Westerlands 45,000

Tywin 20, Jaime 15, Stefford 10

as of Dance less than 3,000 remain

Crownlands negligible

Iron Islands 25,000

10,000-12,000 in the Iron Fleet, rest reavers

Reach 100,000

Stormlands 30,000-35,000

Dorne 30,000

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Discussing the fleets, what do you think about the Iron Fleet? Is it a raiding fleet or would the modern fleet have the power to directly engage the Reach fleet or the Crownlands fleet?

One of the three great fleets, on par with the Royal Fleet itself.

[ab aeterno]

One of the three great fleets, on par with the Royal Fleet itself.

Inexplicably so... :P

[Free Northman]

300 years ago the Reach and Westerlands raised the largest army every raised in Westeros up to that point to take on Aegon the Conqueror. It numbered 55000 men.

This means that the largest army ever raised before that point was smaller than 55000, and by the emphasis placed on the size of this combined force, clearly the previous largest was significantly smaller than this hereto unimaginable horde.

It goes without saying that the largest army raised before this point would have been that of the King of the Reach, who has the highest population in Westeros in his Realm.

This implies that the largest army ever raised by the King of the Reach prior to this point, couldn't have been much larger than around 45000 men, more or less.

At the same time, we are told that Torhenn Stark was able to march 30 000 men south of the Neck.

Meaning that the North's strength was about two thirds the size of the largest army ever raised by the Reach up to that point.

This puts the North at roughly two thirds of the Reach's strength. Extrapolate that to today, then if the Reach is at around 80000 then the North must be around 55000.

The North just finds it far more difficult to bring them all together, let alone march them all 1000 miles off to the South.

[Frey Pie]

From a large number of threads and inferences:

Reach:80000

Riverlands:60000

Westerlands:60000

North:55000

Vale:50000

Stormlands:35000

Dorne:25000

Iron Islands:25000

[Free Northman]

I've done the calculation again, from the ground up, using the numbers from Houses in the North. I've gone in extremely low - in fact, I think I underestimate Houses like the Manderlys by as much as 50% - yet for the sake of argument I'm willing to do so. And this remains what I come up with for the North, up to the time of Dance with Dragons:

Karstark – 3000

Umber – 3000

Mountain Clans – 4000

Bolton – 4000

Stark – 4000

Hornwood – 2000

Dustin – 2000

Ryswell – 2000

Reed – 2000

Mormont – 1000

Glover – 2000

Tallhart – 2000

Flint – 2000

Skagos – 3000

Manderly – 5000

Total - 41000

As I said, I believe I severely underestimate Houses like the Manderlys, Dustins, Ryswells, Flints and Reeds in this calculation. And I'm not even counting Houses like the Lockes and Stoats etc.

And yet I STILL reach a figure above 40 000. There is no way the North has a strength of less than 40 000. It could well be higher, but anything below 40 000 is just ridiculous, based on the hints we've received thus far.

[Frey Pie]

I've done the calculation again, from the ground up, using the numbers from Houses in the North. I've gone in extremely low - in fact, I think I underestimate Houses like the Manderlys by as much as 50% - yet for the sake of argument I'm willing to do so. And this remains what I come up with for the North, up to the time of Dance with Dragons:

Karstark – 3000

Umber – 3000

Mountain Clans – 4000

Bolton – 4000

Stark – 4000

Hornwood – 2000

Dustin – 2000

Ryswell – 2000

Reed – 2000

Mormont – 1000

Glover – 2000

Tallhart – 2000

Flint – 2000

Skagos – 3000

Manderly – 5000

Total - 41000

As I said, I believe I severely underestimate Houses like the Manderlys, Dustins, Ryswells, Flints and Reeds in this calculation. And I'm not even counting Houses like the Lockes and Stoats etc.

And yet I STILL reach a figure above 40 000. There is no way the North has a strength of less than 40 000. It could well be higher, but anything below 40 000 is just ridiculous, based on the hints we've received thus far.

I agree. Houses such as Ryswell and Dustin should have more men for definate IMO. The only one i would consider being lower is Reed, but i personally would up the Mormonts

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I've done the calculation again, from the ground up, using the numbers from Houses in the North. I've gone in extremely low - in fact, I think I underestimate Houses like the Manderlys by as much as 50% - yet for the sake of argument I'm willing to do so. And this remains what I come up with for the North, up to the time of Dance with Dragons:

Karstark – 3000

Umber – 3000

Mountain Clans – 4000

Bolton – 4000

Stark – 4000

Hornwood – 2000

Dustin – 2000

Ryswell – 2000

Reed – 2000

Mormont – 1000

Glover – 2000

Tallhart – 2000

Flint – 2000

Skagos – 3000

Manderly – 5000

Total - 41000

As I said, I believe I severely underestimate Houses like the Manderlys, Dustins, Ryswells, Flints and Reeds in this calculation. And I'm not even counting Houses like the Lockes and Stoats etc.

And yet I STILL reach a figure above 40 000. There is no way the North has a strength of less than 40 000. It could well be higher, but anything below 40 000 is just ridiculous, based on the hints we've received thus far.

I agree. These numbers are so low, they don't actually make sense. For example, the Boltons got another 600-odd men at the dreadfort for Ramsay to pick up in a few days. And Manderley can't even man his ships with that number, much less field a ground force.

The North altogether should be somewhere about 60,000.

[King Aemon I]

Reach - 80.000

North - 30-35.000

Riverlands - 30.000

Stormlands - 25-30.000

Vale - 25.000

West - 30,35.000

Dorne - 25-30.000

Iron Islands - 10.000

[total1402]

OP

IMO Martin uses numbers as he feels appropriate to the story, even if this contradicts some of the context he has established. The North took 20,000 men south and after it lost that many houses are scraping the barrel. This is despite the fact that in geography and size this is an area comparable to medieval russia. However Martin portrays this area instead as a very sparsely populated backwater with a few stone castles and only one city of major note. It comes across more like the borders of the North of England in terms of scale and army size, when really, its occupying an area bigger than european russia and should be much stronger.

For instance the Iron Islands. He seems to have realised that they are far to big to be just sparsely populated islets and because of this they get a thousand ships. With all their crew and marines that amounts to a collossal amount of military strength. But it seems really out of place considering the weakness of other houses.

At the end of the day this is still just well informed high fantasy. Really a winter of several years would result in the death of human society and this being a recurring feature of the world is pretty silly really.

[Frey Pie]

Reach - 80.000

North - 30-35.000

Riverlands - 30.000

Stormlands - 25-30.000

Vale - 25.000

West - 30,35.000

Dorne - 25-30.000

Iron Islands - 10.000

I disagree with many of the numbers, but the West is definately incorrect. Tywin and Jaime between them already have 35000 in GOTs. Stafford then raises thousands more, and Daven again later has some. So the force wev seen from them already is over 35000.