Blood of the First Men

[Kosh Naranek]

The Jon Alive or Dead thread got me to thinking about this.

My own Jon alive/dead theory hinges on the blood of the First Men being what is key about Bloodraven, Bran, Jon, Arya, Sansa and Rickon.

We know that Bloodraven via his Blackwood blood carried the blood of the First Men.

The Starks are descended from the First Men.

The Wildings possess Wargs and Skinchangers and are descended from the First Men.

Wargs south of the Wall were hunted down and killed. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

With the introduction of the Seven, Weirwoods, Godswoods, etc were cut down or burned in the South.

If the timeline I have in my head is correct -

Children of the Forest

First Men war with the Children

Hammer of the Waters

Pact between First Men and Children

The Long Night

Age of Heroes

Andals + the Seven

The First Men are defeated but manage to hold onto lands above the Neck.

What if being a Targ is not important at all? What if the key to the struggle against the Others is tied to Blood of the First Men? What if R+L=J (whether you believe or not) is only important because of Jon's Stark blood and the whole Targ dynasty struggle is just a regular old dynastic struggle set against the backdrop of things going wonky in the North again?

Not even related but....Do the Crannogmen have Children of the Forrest ancestors?

Just some things bumping around in the old noggin.

[DDDUnit]

I think Jon's Targaryean blood matters more than the Blood of the First Men. The Blood of the First Men is important because of skin changing and Jon being able to warg his consciousness into Ghost, if he is dead, until Melisandre can revive him. As to your Crannogman question, I doubt it. They are so small, if size was the basis of your curiosity, because evolution shows that large mammals in small, confined areas like an enclosed swamp tend to grow smaller while small mammals get bigger.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, the entire bloodline theories are imho bullshit. Every single european and a whole bunch of others has "Blood of Charlemagne", and that was a single guy only 1200 years ago.

Everybody alive in the entire world has "Blood of the First Men", "Blood of the Andals", "Blood of the Dragon", "Blood of the Harpy" and whatever.

[Son of the Smiling Knight]

Well, the entire bloodline theories are imho bullshit. Every single european and a whole bunch of others has "Blood of Charlemagne", and that was a single guy only 1200 years ago.

Everybody alive in the entire world has "Blood of the First Men", "Blood of the Andals", "Blood of the Dragon", "Blood of the Harpy" and whatever.

He's talking about a highly concentrated version of those bloodlines. Sure the people from Highgarden may have married a Stark like 1000 years ago but they're "blood of the first men"

would be a really low percentage. The Starks of Winterfell are probably as close as possible to being pure-blooded first men. (Meaning that they have intermarried out of that bloodline but not as much as other people)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He's talking about a highly concentrated version of those bloodlines. Sure the people from Highgarden may have married a Stark like 1000 years ago but they're "blood of the first men"

would be a really low percentage. The Starks of Winterfell are probably as close as possible to being pure-blooded first men. (Meaning that they have intermarried out of that bloodline but not as much as other people)

Quite unlikely that the Starks have a vastly higher concentration of First Men blood. See for example the Tully girl (or Targ boy) a single generation ago, bringing 50% of southron blood into the Starks.

Maybe, but only maybe, the Thenns hav a significantly higher concentration of First Men blood. They have been pretty isolated for quite some time, probably since the Andal invasion.

[Jessup Beknown]

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[Kosh Naranek]

Well I personally believe that individual actions and decisions will prove more important, but I wondered if there was any significance to it at all?

OR

Is this just another example of the Westerosi in general putting too much stock in ancestry due to their society being mediveal in nature?

[Summer is Ending]

I have my own crackpot idea that it's not blood of the First Men in genaral that matters but blood of the First Men that parlayed wtih the Children on the Isle of Faces and that part of sealing the deal was the Children rewarding those men that treated with them and suddenly some people are able to do crazy shit and thus the Age of Heroes with the Boltons left saying what the fuck? Where's mine? I'm going to skin some bastards and see if that doesn't work.

[Lion of Judah]

I have my own crackpot idea that it's not blood of the First Men in genaral that matters but blood of the First Men that parlayed wtih the Children on the Isle of Faces and that part of sealing the deal was the Children rewarding those men that treated with them and suddenly some people are able to do crazy shit and thus the Age of Heroes with the Boltons left saying what the fuck? Where's mine? I'm going to skin some bastards and see if that doesn't work.

Yeah it is odd that the Boltons seem to be left out of this whole 'first blood' thing. Their house dates back to the first men and the age of heros, then again ever try warging a flayed man?

[Lothar Imbel]

He's talking about a highly concentrated version of those bloodlines. Sure the people from Highgarden may have married a Stark like 1000 years ago but they're "blood of the first men"

would be a really low percentage. The Starks of Winterfell are probably as close as possible to being pure-blooded first men. (Meaning that they have intermarried out of that bloodline but not as much as other people)

So would "First Men" Houses such as Royce and Blackwood, due to being in areas that are surrounded by Andals, coupled with the isolationism of the Northern Houses, yet Bloodraven is able to warg like nobodies' business. To me, it's more about belief in the Old Gods that allows people to become Skinchangers and such.

[cuendillar]

Rather than purity of bloodlines, could there be power in some combinations?

The only examples of Valyrian/First Men (fire and ice) children I can find are Bloodraven (Targaryen/Blackwood) and Bittersteel (Targaryen/Bracken). Both are certainly extraordinary quite apart from being legitimized royal bastards. As Jon may have the same parentage, there might be considerably more to this than theoretical musings.

Could anyone find a counter-example, as I might have missed someone in my wikisearch?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Rather than purity of bloodlines, could there be power in some combinations?

The only examples of Valyrian/First Men (fire and ice) children I can find are Bloodraven (Targaryen/Blackwood) and Bittersteel (Targaryen/Bracken). Both are certainly extraordinary quite apart from being legitimized royal bastards. As Jon may have the same parentage, there might be considerably more to this than theoretical musings.

Could anyone find a counter-example, as I might have missed someone in my wikisearch?

There are some Targ/Arryn/Royce (Valyrian/Andal/First Men) mixtures, as well as soome Targ/Hightower (Valyrian/First Men), maybe some Targ/Martell/Dayne (Valyrian/Andal/Rhoynish/First Men) and a bunch of other offshots. They aren't mentioned very often...

[Lady Green]

My theory is that the Stark's have First en blood but the reason that they're 'special' is because they have stayed truest with the ideals of the First Men, so most llikely to develop their skills.

I also believe that the Crannogmen are decended, or at least taught, from?by the Children of the Forest.

[Ghost of Groat]

My theory is that the Stark's have First en blood but the reason that they're 'special' is because they have stayed truest with the ideals of the First Men, so most llikely to develop their skills.

I also believe that the Crannogmen are decended, or at least taught, from?by the Children of the Forest.

I don't remember any specific text but for some reason I took it for granted that Crannogmen were human/CotF mix.

I agree with your view on Stark's remaining true to the first men's ideals too.

Is there any chance that Lyanna's child was the product of incest?

[Fire Eater]

Is there any chance that Lyanna's child was the product of incest?

How? By Rhaegar being her brother? Rhaegar was the product of incest, but Jon wasn't.

The blood of the First Men could be just as significant as blood of the dragon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah it is odd that the Boltons seem to be left out of this whole 'first blood' thing. Their house dates back to the first men and the age of heros, then again ever try warging a flayed man?

There's a theory that that's WHY their sigil is flayed man: They were never able to produce skinchangers, so they went and took it a little too literal. When they wear their enemies' skins, they're actually trying to become them.

And I think that the combination of a bloodline mostly associated with ice and one mostly associated with fire is the power here, although it's Jon's Stark blood that gives him the ability to warg.

[Ghost of Groat]

By Rhaegar being her brother?

No.

[Lady Green]

Is there any chance that Lyanna's child was the product of incest?

I think you're referring to the theory that Jon is Benjen's son...personally I just think that is wrong! There's enough incest with the past Targs and the Lannister Twins, no more incest is needed. Jon's first men blood is as strong as the other Stark kids. I think its stronger than down south because a lot of the Northern families inter-marry and they are all more influenced by the blood of the first men than the blood of the Andals.

[Scipio Africanus]

On a reread I noticed that the whole "blood of first men" thing is mentioned more often then just when dealing with the Wildlings and the Starks.

I just read that the Farwynds on one of the Ironborn islands also have the blood of first men still very much in them, and are rumoured to warg sea lions and other animals. Nimble Dick talked about the old peoples who lived in the Crownlands before the Andals during Brienne's travelogue, but no mention of warging there.

I think some relatively isolated peoples like those Farwynds and the Wildlings still have a lot of First Men blood in them. Might be important further on considering Martin does take time mentioning them, however so slightly.

Well, the entire bloodline theories are imho bullshit. Every single european and a whole bunch of others has "Blood of Charlemagne", and that was a single guy only 1200 years ago.

Everybody alive in the entire world has "Blood of the First Men", "Blood of the Andals", "Blood of the Dragon", "Blood of the Harpy" and whatever.

Well. They say that even though there are like 7 billion people on the planet Earth today (and distributed all over the place) we can still trace our genes to several places in Africa. The Homo Sapiens Sapiens species, which originated in Africa, is like 200000 years old IIRC (our definition of civilization only started several thousend years ago, hard to imagine we're all much older then that).

So I suppose its possible a lot of First Men genes still survive in Westeros, as the timespan that the Andals conquered Westeros didn't span 200000 years. Especially considering transportation and population movement is medieval European in Westeros, so there wouldn't have been that many mass changes in population through travelling.

[King Aerys the Just]

Genes must work very different in GRRM's world anyway, considering how noble houses have seemingly maintained characteristic looks and traits for hundreds or even thousands of years even though they have been intermarrying with each other regularly; Freys are rat-faced and villainous, Crakehalls are boar looking and like fighting, Umbers are huge and badass, Lannisters are blonde, green eyed and arrogant, Boltons are pale eyed psychopaths, Manderlies look like warluses and are gluttons etcetera.

So I don't see why "Blood of the First Men" couldn't play a role in the story. In fact I'm quite sure that it will, since it adds up nicely with the whole "Blood of the Dragon" theme that the Targaryens have going on.