Jon Snow's Letter Came from Mance Rayder

[mattah84]

Mance Rayder could be the one that wrote the letter to Jon. He would know all of the information that was contained in the letter. It could of been Melisandre and Stannis' plan in order to get Jon to break his vows with the nights watch. Stannis did try to offer Jon the lordship of Winterfell at one point and Jon turned it down. Stannis knows he needs a son of Eddard Stark to to unify the North behind him, and that Jon could probably do that. Had Jon not been stabbed by his Nights Watch brothers trying to calm Wun Wun down, he would be marching south towards Ramsey Bolton right now, and most likely would see Stannis along the way.

Also, Mance really knows that the term Bastard bothers Jon Snow due to their conversation about where Jon was sat during the feast when Robert Baratheon came to Winterfell. And Stannis probably felt that hearing Ramsay Bolton say he was the trueborn lord of Winterfell would make Jon Snow irate, since it was offered to him once before.

This also makes sense since the letter asks for Arya (who is Jeyne Poole) back. Mance was going around as Abel in Winterfell, so he was very aware of the escape plan for her before and when it happened.

Also, only having the Pink Wax seal on the letter, could signify that Mance was trying to sneak the Bolton seal onto the letter, but had to settle for only the Pink Wax as he didn't have time and was worried about being caught.

It is either Ramsay or Mance in my opinion........

[WunWunAintDone]

If Mance didnt author it he definately provided some info to whoever did

[FattyPeon]

Why wouldn't Mance just write a letter as himself saying "Ramsey is gonna flay your sister if you don't come"?

[mattah84]

Why wouldn't Mance just write a letter as himself saying "Ramsey is gonna flay your sister if you don't come"?

Because all of that information coming from Ramsey Bolton would provoke Jon alot more than coming from Mance, being called Bastard and being told that Ramsay is the trueborn lord of Winterfell after Jon passed up Stannis' offer for the same position. Also, Mance and his girls were working on a plan to help who they thought was "Arya" escape Winterfell and Ramsay anyway. So Mance wasn't necessarily worried about Arya getting flayed.

And I also think that if it was Ramsay, the writing would of been in dried Blood, and the Bolton seal would of been on it instead of just pink wax.

[coil]

I believe you are right... your points make sense and I didn't thought about Mance coming into Winterfell back at the time.

I'm not entirely 100% sure, let's break the letter and see if something comes out.

Bastard

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king’s friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king’s queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess.

I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton,

Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

Bastard: as far as I remember, Ramsay totally hates being called a bastard.

The only one who gets away with it it's Roose, and even then Ramsay's not happy at all.

Therefore it could be that a ) since Ramsay's not a bastard anymore, he uses the word as he likes (not sure however, since he still resents his status when speaking to his father like already said)

b ) Mance saw Jon in Winterfell and thought of a fitting provocation like Mattah84 pointed out.

Exactly like the term bastard, another one comes around often: False king.

a ) Ramsay is defending Tommen's true status since he's the one who made him an effective Bolton

b ) Mance doesn't like Stannis

No "real" king is mentioned in the letter, except from the King-Beyond-the-Wall, in any case.

All the other informations can be known both by Ramsay (torturing Mance) or Mance itself, I can't see any hint.

Different story when we look at the letter's requests: just tell me why in the world Ramsay needs the wildling princess, never mentioned in Theon chapters, or the little prince. Seriously, they are no one, they have no use for anyone except for Selyse, horny knights and the brutes.

And Mance.

Black crows as far as I know, only the brutes call NW members that way.

I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it seems a very specific threat rather than a generic "I'll flay you until you'll end up eating your own fingers" or "I just need a new pair of boots"... I mean, while it's surely something I wouldn't put past Ramsay, it isn't really Bolton-like.

It's more brute-like, but I have to admit that I don't recall any specific example so I may be grasping straws.

The letter is a way to force Jon to move, still there are mentions to Val and the little kid: maybe to Mance it's the same, he does what Melisandre ordered him to do and gets rewarded with those two or he gets them directly sent to him.

...maybe?

Or could it be a way to force as many NW members out of the Wall (I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore is a lie to deceive Melisandre- so Melisandre convinces Jon to go and even gives him some men? But Melisandre can see in the fires, that would be dangerous...) to help an eventual brutes' insurrection?

Is Melisandre's hold on him too strong?

Also, she had told Jon to wait for an answer from the sky or something like that, like she was expecting a letter or something like that...

There must have been a battle (he mentions seven days and I don't see why he should lie about that), but other than that... probably Stannis won and now he wants someone at Winterfell while he marches south?

I'm quite clueless, don't really know what to think.

[mattah84]

Thats a good point in the post above Coil. Another thing is that Ygritte called Jon Snow and people south of the wall Crows all the time. So that could be why Mance said it to, because thats what Wildlings call the Nights Watch and people South of the Wall.

[shiola]

Good post, coil!

I definitely agree that the "crows" thing strikes me as wildling more than someone south of the Wall. Is there any instance of people south of the Wall using "crow" for the NW, really?

[mcb]

All the other informations can be known both by Ramsay (torturing Mance) or Mance itself, I can't see any hint.

Different story when we look at the letter's requests: just tell me why in the world Ramsay needs the wildling princess, never mentioned in Theon chapters, or the little prince. Seriously, they are no one, they have no use for anyone except for Selyse, horny knights and the brutes.

And Mance.

Now that gave me a pause, to think what possible use could the Ramsay have of them. And I can see one: if Mance was on the loose and causing serious trouble for the Boltons, then Val and his son would make a splendid leverage against him.

But what of the next part: "And I want my Reek"? That line doesn't serve any purpose for Mance posing as Ramsay. Nobody at the Wall would even know what that means, what's "Reek" and why Ramsay wants it so badly.

[Trident full of Dogs]

Now that gave me a pause, to think what possible use could the Ramsay have of them. And I can see one: if Mance was on the loose and causing serious trouble for the Boltons, then Val and his son would make a splendid leverage against him.

But what of the next part: "And I want my Reek"? That line doesn't serve any purpose for Mance posing as Ramsay. Nobody at the Wall would even know what that means, what's "Reek" and why Ramsay wants it so badly.

But Mance had plenty of time.in Winterfell to learn about the Ramsay-Reek bromance, either listening to gossip or witnessing their interactions

[mattah84]

Now that gave me a pause, to think what possible use could the Ramsay have of them. And I can see one: if Mance was on the loose and causing serious trouble for the Boltons, then Val and his son would make a splendid leverage against him.

But what of the next part: "And I want my Reek"? That line doesn't serve any purpose for Mance posing as Ramsay. Nobody at the Wall would even know what that means, what's "Reek" and why Ramsay wants it so badly.

mance would know who reek is. when he was posing as abel in winterfell, his girls heard theon say he wa was reek.

[mcb]

But Mance had plenty of time.in Winterfell to learn about the Ramsay-Reek bromance, either listening to gossip or witnessing their interactions

That's not the point. He'd know, but Jon wouldn't, so why would Mance put it into a letter for Jon? It doesn't add any credibility, it only confuses the recipient.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

And why would Mance want his "Reek"?

[mattah84]

That's not the point. He'd know, but Jon wouldn't, so why would Mance put it into a letter for Jon? It doesn't add any credibility, it only confuses the recipient.

Whether Ramsay wrote it, or Mance wrote it the same credibility with regards to Jon knowing about Reek would apply. You could ask the same question as to why Ramsay would write that then. The Reek thing does authenticate it because it is something that other people, besides just jon snow, might know applies to Ramsay. Also, Mance doesn't know how far Arya (Jeyne Poole) and Theon have gotten yet, he can't be sure they haven't gotten to Stannis, or even to the Wall. It definitely authenticates it, and there is so much other information that Jon Snow isn't going to spend alot of time thinking about Reek. He is going to think about his sister arya, and how mance rayder the man that was supposed to save her, is supposedly trapped inside of a cage for the North to see.

[Darkstar For King]

I guess if it was Mance, he would've added the Reek bit in to make it seem like Ramsay wrote the letter, even if Jon didn't know what Reek was. Because the OP states that if Mance wrote the letter it is because he wants Jon to leave.

[I Am Azor Ahai]

I do not see the purpose of it for Ramsay, if he wrote it.

Plus, I think GRRM already confirmed that the Theon chapter where Stannis is still alive happens after the letter scene.

[Addam of Hull]

The fact that Ramsay hates being called a bastard never struck me as precluding him from writing the pink letter. He hates being called one, but it's because he hates it that Ramsay knows that most bastards would hate it as well. Jon did when he was younger. If I wanted to force someone to be emotional, I'd pick at a weakness like that myself, regardless of whether I hated the term or not. Ramsay would write him about Reek because Ramsay assumes that if Theon and "Arya" were to go anywhere, it would be the Wall. Despite what he's done, the only person left in the North that Theon really knows would be Jon. If Jon has Theon and "Arya", then he knows who Reek is because Theon has likely introduced himself as Reek.

[Bellatrix Stark]

And why would Mance want his "Reek"?

Perhaps Melisandre is behind this "letter" and wants Theon for burning?

Not entirely sold on this theory of Mance writing the letter... Major trolling that is.

[mattah84]

The fact that Ramsay hates being called a bastard never struck me as precluding him from writing the pink letter. He hates being called one, but it's because he hates it that Ramsay knows that most bastards would hate it as well. Jon did when he was younger. If I wanted to force someone to be emotional, I'd pick at a weakness like that myself, regardless of whether I hated the term or not. Ramsay would write him about Reek because Ramsay assumes that if Theon and "Arya" were to go anywhere, it would be the Wall. Despite what he's done, the only person left in the North that Theon really knows would be Jon. If Jon has Theon and "Arya", then he knows who Reek is because Theon has likely introduced himself as Reek.

I definitely agree on the picking at a person's weakness thing. But Mance would know that it is a huge weakness for Jon as well. He remembers their conversation where Jon asked if Mance saw where the Bastard was seated at the Feast that was put on for King Robert at Winterfell.

[Lord Damian]

And why would Mance want his "Reek"?

He is letting Jon know that "reek", aka theon Greyjoy, who slaughtered your baby brothers is on the loose and might be headed your way, Jon, and he has Arya, your sister.

[Addam of Hull]

I definitely agree on the picking at a person's weakness thing. But Mance would know that it is a huge weakness for Jon as well. He remembers their conversation where Jon asked if Mance saw where the Bastard was seated at the Feast that was put on for King Robert at Winterfell.

That's true, but Mance also knows that Jon was infiltrating them so it's not something that he can take as truth. IIRC, Mance called him bastard repeatedly when Jon fought him in his glamour and never once did Jon get upset or visibly emotional about it. Mance could've wrote the letter - I'm not denying that - but it seems like a really poor attempt on his part to get Jon to come south if he did. I think it's a lot more likely that Ramsay wrote it and lied about several key parts instead.