Where was each respective host during the Battle of the Blackwater?

[Chaircat Meow]

My view;

Tywin >>>>>>>>>>>>> King's Landing

Blackwater Rush Saan

Tarly >>> Garlan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stannis

Mace >>>> Bastard of Nightsong

[Nyrhex]

I fail to see how the provided quotes indicate that none of the Tywin/Tyrell hosts arrived on the north bank. When Tyrion's chapter ends the bridge of ships broke apart and he was much further east of where Tywin's host would have arrived. So I don't see how any of the quotes preclude a host on the northern bank.

Tyrion already went west of KL to dispatch a few of Stannis's forces who manged to get to the King's gate with a ram. He then moves east for the Mud/River gate. There is where he fights those few who managed to land, but then some more cross over the bridge. He tries to fight them as well, but when Moore sees the battle is lost, he attempts to kill him. That is when Tyrion notices that the enemy army is fighting someone on the south bank, but there is little fighting in the north once the bridge is broken. Swan was next to Tyrion up until very recently, but he returns back through the Mud/River gate. As of Osney's description of the ongoing battle, a few hundred of Stannis's men are trying to break through the Mud/River gate, while the rest of Stannis's army is fighting south of the river. Had there been anyone, Tywin, Tarly, or even Mace, on the north bank, they should have a clear path all the way to the Mud/River gate, but we are told that the few hundred of Stannis's men are unengaged in anything other then breaking the gate. It would have been logical for some forces to disembark north, but there is no indication of this. It's also only logical if they know that Stannis will already cross by then. Stannis's ships arrived about the same time as Tywin and the Tyrells disembark. They don't know anything yet, other then that Stannis is waiting for his ships, which are delayed because of a storm. It makes more sense to land the entire army south, and to use their full might, other then senting a third or so of thier forces north, where they would have to cross south again if Stannis hasn't crossed north yet.

Also the fighting seen by Tyrion was likely the arrival of the van under Garlan, which could have arrived a little while before Tywin's men on the opposite bank. They would have been marching separately for half a day (split by the river) and one bit of the army may have gotten some way in advance of the other.

If that's the case, there is no indication that any forces arrived north of the Blackwater during the fighting.

[Chaircat Meow]

Maybe when Dontos says 'north side of the river' he just means something like, the 'side of the army next to the river,' or 'the bit of the army furthest north.' In which case you still have to flip the designations of right, left and so on; so Tywin actually had the left, and Mace the right, but no one was on the north bank of the river. Assuming GrrM (or Dontos) meant to say 'south' instead of north doesn't make much sense, why say specifically that the lannisters had the 'south side of the river' when the whole army was to the south ...?

[King Aerys the Just]

The Blackfish said they took Stannis army in the rear, right?

Shouldn't that mean that they had to have approached from the southern bank?

[Chaircat Meow]

The Blackfish said they took Stannis army in the rear, right?

Shouldn't that mean that they had to have approached from the southern bank?

Yea. No one denies that most of them did, and most references to the battle would appear to imply this. Dontos, however, who tells us who led each battle in the combined army, appears to think the westerlings were on the north side/bank of the river.

[Nyrhex]

Maybe when Dontos says 'north side of the river' he just means something like, the 'side of the army next to the river,' or 'the bit of the army furthest north.' In which case you still have to flip the designations of right, left and so on; so Tywin actually had the left, and Mace the right, but no one was on the north bank of the river. Assuming GrrM (or Dontos) meant to say 'south' instead of north doesn't make much sense, why say specifically that the lannisters had the 'south side of the river' when the whole army was to the south ...?

Good point. So it should read:

“[...] Lord Tywin himself had their right (Dontos mixing with left) wing on the north south side of the river, with Randyll Tarly commanding the center and Mace Tyrell the left (Dontos mixing with right), but the vanguard won the fight. They plunged through Stannis like a lance through a pumpkin, every man of them howling like some demon in steel.

And do you know who led the vanguard? Do you? Do you? Do you?”

The map should be:

No one (?) ..................................... King's Landing

...........................................Some few hundred Stannis men

Blackwater Rush...........................................................................Saan

Tywin >>>

Tarly >>> .....Garlan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stannis

Mace >>>>.....................................Bastard of Nightsong

And then everything makes sense, minus Martin's typo. No?

And it makes more sense if the Tyrells, who were mentioned as marching by the Roseroad from Bitterbridge, left the barges for Tywin to land and link up with them close to Stannis. That makes alot more sense for "appearing in his rear", rather then his side and front.

[King Aerys the Just]

Yea. No one denies that most of them did, and most references to the battle would appear to imply this. Dontos, however, who tells us who led each battle in the combined army, appears to think the westerlings were on the north side/bank of the river.

Ah, well the Blackfish should know what he is talking about more than Dontos.

Seasoned commander ------> Drunken fool.

[galanix]

My view;

Tywin >>>>>>>>>>>>> King's Landing

Blackwater Rush Saan

Tarly >>> Garlan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stannis

Mace >>>> Bastard of Nightsong

I think you may be right about Dontos mixing up left and right. So here's a picture of your proposed layout, which seems reasonable:

[galanix]

Good point. So it should read:

The map should be:

No one (?) King's Landing

Some few hundred Stannis men

Blackwater Rush Saan

Tywin >>>

Tarly >>> Garlan >>>>>>>>>>>>> Stannis

Mace >>>> Bastard of Nightsong

And then everything makes sense, minus Martin's typo. No?

And it makes more sense if the Tyrells, who were mentioned as marching by the Roseroad from Bitterbridge, left the barges for Tywin to land and link up with thep close to Stannis.

It doesn't make sense to me that no hosts were on the northern bank. They started re-ramming the King's Gate after the bridge of ships broke apart at the end of Tyrion's chapter. They had a fairly substantial force below the walls as evidenced by all the Gold Cloaks leaving their posts. If only a few hundred of Stannis's troops had crossed at that point it makes no sense that the thousands of Gold Cloaks felt threatened enough to leave. I believe several thousand of Stannis's troops had crossed.

So there had to have been a northern host to contest Stannis's forces on the northern bank. Plus the Tywin-Tyrell forces had no idea if they would reach King's Landing in time (they nearly didn't). So if the put all their forces on the southern bank and Stannis had already crossed completely they'd be screwed. It makes more sense that they split their host to north and south.

[King Aerys the Just]

So there had to have been a northern host to contest Stannis's forces on the northern bank. Plus the Tywin-Tyrell forces had no idea if they would reach King's Landing in time (they nearly didn't). So if the put all their forces on the southern bank and Stannis had already crossed completely they'd be screwed. It makes more sense that they split their host to north and south.

That's true. In fact, they should probably have expected that the city would have fallen or almost fallen already by the time they got there. Since if it hadn't been for Tyrion's wildfire bombs, which Tywin and Co. wouldn't have known about, that's likely just what would have happened.

[Talbot]

Regardless, Garlan Tyrell is the man.

[Nyrhex]

It doesn't make sense to me that no hosts were on the northern bank. They started re-ramming the King's Gate after the bridge of ships broke apart at the end of Tyrion's chapter. They had a fairly substantial force below the walls as evidenced by all the Gold Cloaks leaving their posts. If only a few hundred of Stannis's troops had crossed at that point it makes no sense that the thousands of Gold Cloaks felt threatened enough to leave. I believe several thousand of Stannis's troops had crossed.

So there had to have been a northern host to contest Stannis's forces on the northern bank. Plus the Tywin-Tyrell forces had no idea if they would reach King's Landing in time (they nearly didn't). So if the put all their forces on the southern bank and Stannis had already crossed completely they'd be screwed. It makes more sense that they split their host to north and south.

Wait, if Tyrion ends his chapter with Stannis engaged in battle with Garlan, and the bridge broke with a few hundred of Stannis's men on the north side, how can Stannis send more troops now? He still has ~40 ships sure, but Tyrion just finished off the first few hundreds that landed at first, and lost to the few hundreds that crossed on the bridge. That means that only a few hundreds are now north of the river, while Stannis is fighting with Garlan. How can Stannis send more forces to the King's gate, when most of his men switched sides when they saw "renly"? It's more likely that the few hundreds that crossed were acting alone, without knowing what is happening south of the river.

There is no way Stannis can send a few thousends across the river, while his men are either switching sides or dying in battle against Garlan's force and the turncloacks. The men who crossed the bridge are on thier own. When they see that the battle is lost they will surrender.

Regardless, Garlan Tyrell is the man.

:agree:

[Chaircat Meow]

I think you may be right about Dontos mixing up left and right. So here's a picture of your proposed layout, which seems reasonable:

http://i.imgur.com/x07Rcbk.jpg[/img]

Ooh, nice map. Thanks for this.

[galanix]

Wait, if Tyrion ends his chapter with Stannis engaged in battle with Garlan, and the bridge broke with a few hundred of Stannis's men on the north side, how can Stannis send more troops now? He still has ~40 ships sure, but Tyrion just finished off the first few hundreds that landed at first, and lost to the few hundreds that crossed on the bridge. That means that only a few hundreds are now north of the river, while Stannis is fighting with Garlan. How can Stannis send more forces to the King's gate, when most of his men switched sides when they saw "renly"? It's more likely that the few hundreds that crossed were acting alone, without knowing what is happening south of the river.

There is no way Stannis can send a few thousends across the river, while his men are either switching sides or dying in battle against Garlan's force and the turncloacks. The men who crossed the bridge are on thier own. When they see that the battle is lost they will surrender.

They were ferrying troops to the Tourney Grounds using the 30-40 galleys that survived the wildfire. I think you are mistaken in thinking that Tyrion's sortie outright decimated Stannis's troops on the northern bank. Tyrion's sortie left the King's Gate and they immediately headed for the Mud Gate, cutting down some troops, but mostly just dispersing them. The purpose of the sortie was to buy time by getting the troops to scatter while they rode toward the Mud Gate. They didn't cut them all down, and for all we know several hundred to thousands more arrived after Tyrion fell. Based on the timeline of the next chapter a fair amount of time passes between Lancel reporting the bridge of ships broke apart and Dontos reporting the battle is won.

Lancel states at the beginning of the next chapter (after Tyrion and the bridge of ships fall) to Cersei that they are ramming the King's Gate again and that most of the gold cloaks are fleeing because they think the battle is lost. The Lannisters had roughly seven thousand defenders in the city. Why would they turn and run if only a few hundred of Stannis's men were on the northern bank. It makes no sense. I have to think a sizeable amount of Stannis's forces had made their way to the northern bank (a few thousand at least).

[Nyrhex]

They were ferrying troops to the Tourney Grounds using the 30-40 galleys that survived the wildfire. I think you are mistaken in thinking that Tyrion's sortie outright decimated Stannis's troops on the northern bank. Tyrion's sortie left the King's Gate and they immediately headed for the Mud Gate, cutting down some troops, but mostly just dispersing them. The purpose of the sortie was to buy time by getting the troops to scatter while they rode toward the Mud Gate. They didn't cut them all down, and for all we know several hundred to thousands more arrived after Tyrion fell. Based on the timeline of the next chapter a fair amount of time passes between Lancel reporting the bridge of ships broke apart and Dontos reporting the battle is won.

Lancel states at the beginning of the next chapter (after Tyrion and the bridge of ships fall) to Cersei that they are ramming the King's Gate again and that most of the gold cloaks are fleeing because they think the battle is lost. The Lannisters had roughly seven thousand defenders in the city. Why would they turn and run if only a few hundred of Stannis's men were on the northern bank. It makes no sense. I have to think a sizeable amount of Stannis's forces had made their way to the northern bank (a few thousand at least).

Still doesn't make sense. Tyrion disperses the men from the King's gate and they have to flee to the Mud gate. When Tyrion reaches the Mud gate he battles more men that got there on the bridge, but Stannis is already fighting Garlan. Stannis has no time to move troops by ship, as he is already fighting by the time it took Tyrion to reach from the King's gate to the Mud gate. Stannis has 1,000 men across at best by now, and that's assuming that Tyrion inflicted nealy zero casualties. Why would the defenders flee from a few hundred? Because they are militia and just saw the Hound snap, the Hand not returning from a sortie, the King fleeing the battlements, the enemy battering down the gates, and the river on fire. They have no idea that the Tyrells and Tywin showed up. Had Tywin should up on the north bank, it makes even less sense.

[galanix]

Still doesn't make sense. Tyrion disperses the men from the King's gate and they have to flee to the Mud gate. When Tyrion reaches the Mud gate he battles more men that got there on the bridge, but Stannis is already fighting Garlan. Stannis has no time to move troops by ship, as he is already fighting by the time it took Tyrion to reach from the King's gate to the Mud gate. Stannis has 1,000 men across at best by now, and that's assuming that Tyrion inflicted nealy zero casualties. Why would the defenders flee from a few hundred? Because they are militia and just saw the Hound snap, the Hand not returning from a sortie, the King fleeing the battlements, the enemy battering down the gates, and the river on fire. They have no idea that the Tyrells and Tywin showed up. Had Tywin should up on the north bank, it makes even less sense.

You are assuming after Tyrion's sortie came out that Stannis's troops dispersed in one direction, towards the Mud Gate. There is no reason to assume this; the Tourney Grounds are pretty sizable with more than enough room for one sortie to go through without bottlenecking the opposing troops. Stannis's troops likely dispersed in all directions, not just towards the Mud Gate. Also, I must restate that Tyrion's sortie was trying to buy time by dispersing Stannis's troops, particularly the ones ramming the gates.

How could more troops arrive after Garlan's van arrived? Simple -- some may have been en route aboard the galleys crossing the river, departing before the van arrives and arriving on the northern bank after Tyrion's sortie. Or perhaps many of them had just arrived on the northern bank and were assembling as Tyrion's sortie came through. Look at the map, there's plenty of room for the the troops to be without being in the path of the sortie, which presumably went directly from the King's Gate to the Mud Gate.

Even a rag-tag militia (which the gold cloaks weren't) wouldn't flee when they outnumber their opponent 6,800 to a few hundred, that's ridiculous. I'm not sure why you have the upper bound of Stannis's northern troops at 1,000. That seems an arbitrary estimate. Tyrion himself estimates that 30-40 galleys survived the wildfire and that it would be more than enough to transport Stannis's whole host:

Stannis would be left with thirty or forty galleys, at a guess; more than enough to bring his whole host across, once they had regained their courage.

Perhaps Tyrion meant it would take a few trips to ferry over the entire host. But let's take a conservative estimate that only 20 galleys were able to finish ferrying troops, with 100 mounted men per galley. That's 2,000 minimally. And I would say I'm being very conservative with that estimate and that doesn't even account for the men crossing the bridge of ships, which I think is closer to 1,000. Being more realistic I'd say around 4,000 of Stannis's men in total were able to cross, with the upper bound being as many as around 8,000.

Why does Tywin's host arriving on the northern bank make no sense? It's clear they could've landed on the northern side from the barges at Tumbler's Falls. It makes sense to split the host given they didn't know if they would arrive in time. And Dontos specifically says Tywin's host was on the northern bank. I think part of why you can't grasp it is because you think Tywin's host arrived at the same time as Garlan's van. I don't think it did; I assume Garlan's van arrived well ahead of everyone else.

[Nyrhex]

You are assuming after Tyrion's sortie came out that Stannis's troops dispersed in one direction, towards the Mud Gate. There is no reason to assume this; the Tourney Grounds are pretty sizable with more than enough room for one sortie to go through without bottlenecking the opposing troops. Stannis's troops likely dispersed in all directions, not just towards the Mud Gate. Also, I must restate that Tyrion's sortie was trying to buy time by dispersing Stannis's troops, particularly the ones ramming the gates.

How could more troops arrive after Garlan's van arrived? Simple -- some may have been en route aboard the galleys crossing the river, departing before the van arrives and arriving on the northern bank after Tyrion's sortie. Or perhaps many of them had just arrived on the northern bank and were assembling as Tyrion's sortie came through. Look at the map, there's plenty of room for the the troops to be without being in the path of the sortie, which presumably went directly from the King's Gate to the Mud Gate.

Even a rag-tag militia (which the gold cloaks weren't) wouldn't flee when they outnumber their opponent 6,800 to a few hundred, that's ridiculous. I'm not sure why you have the upper bound of Stannis's northern troops at 1,000. That seems an arbitrary estimate. Tyrion himself estimates that 30-40 galleys survived the wildfire and that it would be more than enough to transport Stannis's whole host:

Perhaps Tyrion meant it would take a few trips to ferry over the entire host. But let's take a conservative estimate that only 20 galleys were able to finish ferrying troops, with 100 mounted men per galley. That's 2,000 minimally. And I would say I'm being very conservative with that estimate and that doesn't even account for the men crossing the bridge of ships, which I think is closer to 1,000. Being more realistic I'd say around 4,000 of Stannis's men in total were able to cross, with the upper bound being as many as around 8,000.

Why does Tywin's host arriving on the northern bank make no sense? It's clear though could've landed on the north side from the barges at Tumbler's Falls. It makes sense to split the host given they didn't know if they would arrive in time. And Dontos specifically says Tywin's host was on the northern bank. I think part of why you can't grasp it is because you think Tywin's host arrived at the same time as Garlan's van. I don't think it did; I assume Garlan's van arrived well ahead of everyone else.

There were a few hundred at the King's gate. Tyrion disperses them, likely killing a fair number of them. He can see across the Blackwater, why would he change positions if he sees the ships bringing more troops? That would be placing his ~40 men between the men at the Mud gate and the fresh ones that will land near the King's gate. He does not see an immediate danger to the King's gate, so he proceeds to the Mud gate, where he is faced with several hundred more. I added "several hundred" and "several hundred" that dispersed earlier to a solid 1,000 after the two short battles with Tyrion. By this point, there is no way Stannis can transport more troops across with ships, as he is already battleing Garlan.

20 ships can get 2,000 mounted men maximum, as that is all that Saan's 20 can get when Stannis retreats. It means he can get his host across if the ships ferry parts of his host several (5-6) times. It takes time to get 2,000 men and thier horses on ships. There is no way in the short time it took Tyrion to get to the Mud gate and see the fighting across the river, Stannis manages to load the ships with men, and there is no way Tyrion could not see that more ships are coming, and would waste his time here, where he will be trapped.

The gold cloacks are 2,000, minus 300 that went with LF. They are a police force, not soldiers. The rest are some knights and sellswords, and mostly ~4,000 militia that joined the city watch with basic training at best. Half of the professional soldiers die during the Hound's sorties, leaving the city with the city watch, and the militia. Why would ~100,000 wildlings, ~20,000 of them fighters, run from a 1,000 mounted troops? Same reason. They saw the Hound, the Hand, the king, they saw the river on fire and soldiers battering thier gates. They broke, and they broke bad.

[galanix]

There were a few hundred at the King's gate. Tyrion disperses them, likely killing a fair number of them. He can see across the Blackwater, why would he change positions if he sees the ships bringing more troops? That would be placing his ~40 men between the men at the Mud gate and the fresh ones that will land near the King's gate. He does not see an immediate danger to the King's gate, so he proceeds to the Mud gate, where he is faced with several hundred more. I added "several hundred" and "several hundred" that dispersed earlier to a solid 1,000 after the two short battles with Tyrion. By this point, there is no way Stannis can transport more troops across with ships, as he is already battleing Garlan.

20 ships can get 2,000 mounted men maximum, as that is all that Saan's 20 can get when Stannis retreats. It means he can get his host across if the ships ferry parts of his host several (5-6) times. It takes time to get 2,000 men and thier horses on ships. There is no way in the short time it took Tyrion to get to the Mud gate and see the fighting across the river, Stannis manages to load the ships with men, and there is no way Tyrion could not see that more ships are coming, and would waste his time here, where he will be trapped.

The gold cloacks are 2,000, minus 300 that went with LF. They are a police force, not soldiers. The rest are some knights and sellswords, and mostly ~4,000 militia that joined the city watch with basic training at best. Half of the professional soldiers die during the Hound's sorties, leaving the city with the city watch, and the militia. Why would ~100,000 wildlings, ~20,000 of them fighters, run from a 1,000 mounted troops? Same reason. They saw the Hound, the Hand, the king, they saw the river on fire and soldiers battering thier gates. They broke, and they broke bad.

Tyrion didn't change positions because the goal of the sortie was to disperse not defeat the enemy troops. I agree there was no immediate danger to the King's Gate after Tyrion dispersed the troops there, but troops landing is not an immediate danger. They only assembled after the bridge of ships broke apart.

Tyrion is in no position to observe whether more ships are landing after his sortie heads east, or whether more arrived after he fell obviously. There may have been many galleys en route as Tyrion's sortie heads out. Just because Tyrion doesn't explicitly mention they are not there does not mean they aren't. He only describes the immediate battlefield around him.

We don't know that the 2,000 men aboard the Lyseni galleys was a limitation due to space. It may well have been due to time constraints.

I'm not saying Stannis loaded his ships with men in the time between Tyrion leaving the King's Gate and reaching the Mud Gate. I'm saying those ships may have already been loaded and en route to the northern bank, arriving after Tyrion passed through.

Comparing the wildlings fleeing to the gold cloaks fleeing is not apt. The gold cloaks were sitting behind walls in a defensible position expecting an attack. The wildlings were sitting essentially in an open field not expecting 2,000 trained cavalry riding in formation to flank them. It's a night and day difference.

[Nyrhex]

Tyrion didn't change positions because the goal of the sortie was to disperse not defeat the enemy troops. I agree there was no immediate danger to the King's Gate after Tyrion dispersed the troops there, but troops landing is not an immediate danger. They only assembled after the bridge of ships broke apart.

Tyrion is in no position to observe whether more ships are landing after his sortie heads east, or whether more arrived after he fell obviously. There may have been many galleys en route as Tyrion's sortie heads out. Just because Tyrion doesn't explicitly mention they are not there does not mean they aren't. He only describes the immediate battlefield around him.

We don't know that the 2,000 men aboard the Lyseni galleys was a limitation due to space. It may well have been due to time constraints.

I'm not saying Stannis loaded his ships with men in the time between Tyrion leaving the King's Gate and reaching the Mud Gate. I'm saying those ships may have already been loaded and en route to the northern bank, arriving after Tyrion passed through.

Comparing the wildlings fleeing to the gold cloaks fleeing is not apt. The gold cloaks were sitting behind walls in a defensible position expecting an attack. The wildlings were sitting essentially in an open field not expecting 2,000 trained cavalry riding in formation to flank them. It's a night and day difference.

1. Tyrion can see across the Blackwater. He sees about 40 ships fleeing from the fire, then allows Joffery to use the whore for throwing Antler men, then immediatly moves to the King's gate through empty streets. How long should it take him to get from the Mud gate to the King's gate? From the moment he is told and by the time he gets there, the enemy have moved the ram from one of the 8 ships that landed/crashed on the north bank to the King's gate. 10 Minutes? 20? He leads a sortie 5 minutes later. There isn't time for the ships he saw half an hour ago to back up to Stannis' side of the river and take on men.

Stannis's ships past the fire are upstream, not yet loading men. This leads to Stannis in the meantime sending men over the bridge. It also can't be between Tyrion passing out and the dawn, as Tyrion passes out after seeing Stannis fighting, a situation not enabeling him to load men on ships. It simply could not have happened in that short timeframe. Other then the men from the first landing and the reinforcements who crossed the bridge, the rest of Stannis's men were still on the south bank on the Blackwater.

2. We know that only 2,000 got on, as men were fighting for a place. If it was possible to transport the entire army Stannis could have done so instead of riding to KL. He should have got there at the same time, if not later, then the fleet, but this did not happen as the fleet was cought in a storm on the way. Transporting such a host requires troop ships and horse carriers, not war galleys and pirate ships.

3. I was not comapring the circumstances, I was comparing the lack of dicipline in both the Wildlings, and with the freshly reqruited gold cloacks. The gold cloacks also did not know what was happening beyond the river, and still thought they need to face Stannis's full army after Tyrion's failed sortie and Joffery's retreat to Maegor's holdfast. You see the whole map now, but they see no leadership, enemy at the gates, and a whole lot more coming in the next few hours.

[galanix]

1. Tyrion can see across the Blackwater. Stannis's ships past the fire are upstream, not yet loading men. This leads to Stannis in the meantime sending men over the bridge. It also can't be between Tyrion passing out and the dawn, as Tyrion passes out after seeing Stannis fighting, a situation not enabeling him to load men on ships. It simply could not have happened in that short timeframe. Other then the men from the first landing and the reinforcements who crossed the bridge, the rest of Stannis's men were still on the south bank on the Blackwater.

"Stannis's ships past the fire are upstream, not yet loading men" - Please provide a citation for this. I can't find a reference to this following Tyrion exiting the King's Gate.

I am not saying Stannis loaded men into the ships after Tyrion passed out. I'm saying the men were loaded before-hand and only landed after Tyrion passed out. During Tyrion's sortie chapter those ships were in the Blackwater Rush en route to the northern bank. Here's a rough timeline (starting mid-battle) of what I think went down:

1. Wildfire exposion
   
2. 30-40 of Stannis's galleys escape the wildfire upstream
   
3. Wildfire ships wrecking on the shore, men come streaming out
   
4. Lannister sorties cutting down men escaping from wrecks
   
5. Stannis's intact galleys load up men on the southern shore and some depart
   
6. Three galleys land at Tourny Grounds unload a few hundred of Stannis's men
   
7. They begin ramming the King's Gate
   
8. Hundreds of Stannis's men begin traversing the "bridge of ships"
   
9. Stannis's galleys continue loading up men and depart from southern shore
   
10. Garlan's vanguard arrives on the southern bank
    
11. Stannis's galleys no longer load up men from southern shore due to vanguard
    
12. Tyrion leads a sortie out the King's Gate
    
13. Most of Stannis's loaded galleys still in the middle of the Rush en route to northern bank
    
14. Tyrion's sortie arrives at the bridge of ships
    
15. Bridge of ships breaks apart
    
16. Sorties retreat back inside the city
    
17. Stannis's loaded galleys arrive on the northern bank and unload troops
    
18. Stannis's troops (~3K-5K) assemble at Tourney Grounds
    
19. Stannis's men begin ramming the King's Gate again
    
20. Gold Cloaks begin fleeing the city
    
21. The Hound flees
    
22. Tywin's host arrives on the northern bank, smashes the few thousand Stannis troops on the northern bank with most surrendering
    
23. Mace and Randyll arrive on southern bank
    
24. Rolland Storm's rearguard fends off Garlan's vanguard
    
25. Stannis and 2K of his men escape aboard Lyseni galleys from the southern bank
    
26. Rest of Stannis's men surrender
    

Speculative events are highlighted in red, everything else is supported by the text directly.

2. We know that only 2,000 got on, as men were fighting for a place. If it was possible to transport the entire army Stannis could have done so instead of riding to KL. He should have got there at the same time, if not later, then the fleet, but this did not happen as the fleet was cought in a storm on the way. Transporting such a host requires troop ships and horse carriers, not war galleys and pirate ships.

I concede that Stannis's entire host likely couldn't be transported across in one trip. But I think it's plausible that 30 or so galleys (based on Ventian/Byzantine dromonds) transported 200 riders each, putting the upper-bound at 6K men. I would say the lower bound at 2K (not including the hundreds that crossed the bridge of ships, or hundreds that wrecked ashore from burning ships). But certainly more substantial than the few hundred to a thousand you suggest.

3. I was not comapring the circumstances, I was comparing the lack of dicipline in both the Wildlings, and with the freshly reqruited gold cloacks. The gold cloacks also did not know what was happening beyond the river, and still thought they need to face Stannis's full army after Tyrion's failed sortie and Joffery's retreat to Maegor's holdfast. You see the whole map now, but they see no leadership, enemy at the gates, and a whole lot more coming in the next few hours.

But you can't ignore the circumstances when making a comparison. An army fleeing mid-battle is one thing, but fleeing before they even breach your gates is entirely different, especially if they outnumbered Stannis's troops on the northern shore 7 to 1.