Planetos

[ser benjamin]

Still a bit new here.... so please excuse if this has been discussed to death.

What do you think the Planet situation looks like? Ive been looking at my Map of the Known World, and I see a noted lack of a cold south pole.... Is the equator of this planet deep down in sothyros and ulthos? If so, the "known world" may only be 1/3 of this entire world. (we are only getting part of maybe 2 hemispheres.

My theory is this. The planet's south pole is fixed at their star. It rotates on an axis, but "wobbles" as it goes so the northern hemisphere never gets closer to the star. this explains why, even in summer, the north never really thaws out. Im not a fluid mechanics engineer or a climate scientist... but this type of planetary rotation could also account for season that last many years.

Thoughts?

[stu1987]

I'd love there to be some sort of scientific explanation of the seasons but I think it will be more of a supernatural phenomenon where the seasons mimic the mood of Westeros or something like that.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

My theory is this. The planet's south pole is fixed at their star. It rotates on an axis, but "wobbles" as it goes so the northern hemisphere never gets closer to the star. this explains why, even in summer, the north never really thaws out. Im not a fluid mechanics engineer or a climate scientist... but this type of planetary rotation could also account for season that last many years.

I'm not sure I understand you... it's not fixed in the sense of directly touching, because the sun can be seen up in the sky without intersecting the horizon. And it's not fixed in the sense of always pointing in that direction, because the sun goes up and down in the sky (and, actually, can be seen from the northern hemisphere).

[ser benjamin]

I realize it is a bit hard to explain.... i had to use a globe when showing my friend.

The planet still rotates obviously. night and day. but where as Earth's N/S hemispheres split the time they are leaning toward the Sun, Planetos' south pole always leans toward the sun.

I dont recall "days getting shorter" being something that happens as a sign of winter... i could ber dead wrong there... and a lack of a mentioned doesnt mean it is not happening... but same-length days all the time would also be something that happens as a result. This would also mean that the "sun" never sets in the most southern reaches of the planet.

[TheLostStark]

GRRM said in an interview that the weather situation would be explained in coming books and that the answer would be magical/fantasy not scientific.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I dont recall "days getting shorter" being something that happens as a sign of winter...

It's mentioned in the first book:

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. “You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face.”

Still, it's an interesting model you're describing... I think I'll need to get a globe to understand it though ;-)

[thecryptile]

GRRM says the climate has a magical, fantasy explanation not a scientific, sf explanation. GRRM is also unclear on the size of the planet, saying that it might be larger than Earth originally, he has qualified that statement since.

3) Is your world round. I mean if Dany traveled far enough east couldnt she come to the other side of westeros?

Yes, the world is round. Might be a little larger than ours, though. I was thinking more like Vance's Big Planet.... but don't hold me to that.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Euron_and_the_Globe

We had two recent threads on similar topics:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87895-how-big-is-the-planet-westeros-is-on/ How big is Planetos?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87902-a-cartographic-study-of-the-lands-of-ice-and-fire-the-true-size-of-the-north/ cartographic study of the Lands of ASOIAF-- interesting discussion of how map projections effect the apparent size of the North.

[Dale Sams]

GRRM says the climate has a magical, fantasy explanation not a scientific, sf explanation. GRRM is also unclear on the size of the planet, saying that it might be larger than Earth originally, he has qualified that statement since.http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Euron_and_the_GlobeWe had two recent threads on similar topics:http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87895-how-big-is-the-planet-westeros-is-on/ How big is Planetos?http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87902-a-cartographic-study-of-the-lands-of-ice-and-fire-the-true-size-of-the-north/ cartographic study of the Lands of ASOIAF-- interesting discussion of how map projections effect the apparent size of the North.

Is that still the concept? I had the sense that Planetos was about the size of the moon.

Not only is there a common language for half the world, there's a ravennet...and more importantly a 'little bird net'

I have a hard time seeing Richard the Lionhearted asking a council member on the latest political intrigues of Saladin or Genghis Khan.

[shyndy]

So, gravity seems to be about the same though. Some how planetos is a little less dense then?

[barristan-b]

Well precession is what gives us our current seasons on earth and if the seasons last so long on Planetos (are also super erratic) then it begs the question if they have a very slow, longer precessional cycle.

Also, super volcanos on the planet (hard home, doom,etc.) could cause a sulfuric increase in the atmosphere creating an extended winter, preventing solar radiation, essentially causing an ice age on a planet where certain species can thrive. But these "ice ages" could have a delay because of the undistrubed atmospheric conditions. So, the creatures could slowly emerge first before the disturbance induced "winters" take place.

In addition, a subterranean environment becomes more prominent when these volcanos and such become active. So the origin of dragons could be sub-surface.

Eesh, that's about as far as I'll think about it haha

[Waters Gate]

Indeed Grrm said the seaons to be magical but imho it doesn't exlude it to be "astromagical", but then you would need some sort of magic that controls planets or other stellar body's trough magic. (or mayhaps when gods are planets or stellar body's)

It means that with astrophysics we might still learn something about the weird nature about the seasons of Westeros even if there is no scientific explenation for it. Atleast we can use science to spot anomolies, which then could be attributed to magic.

Afcourse for what regards science, possible theory's how the seasons might work trough asrophysics have also been worked out, although one must say there has neve rbeen a really striking explenation for it within the context of the books and even they hit on certain limitations.

Certain aspects of the stellar body's around Westeros afterall behave to a certain degree of expactations and enough to establish a few certaintly's regarding astrphysical theory's that likely won't work.

As barristan-b noted, our seasons on our world are due to procession and for what regards Planetos there are several reasons to argue that it too has somehting of an angle to it but it shouldn't nessecarily be considered anymore erradic than that on earth.

There are various indications to this: The Westerosi have a pole star that stays at the same place usually or is never said to have moved for a period. An erradic precession makes few sense, preccesion can determine seasons but usually it's periodical and if it would be the cause of a long night then likely it would be predictable when it would happen. The way the sun and the moon move also give an impression of fairly earth like conditions. The moon takes about the same amount of days to turn around Planetos. Although we don't know where the equator is, it's also so that noone in the books seem to have witnessed something distinct to the southern hemisphere, that is that the sun can be in the north at noon rather than in the south. It's important to note for what regards precession because a higher or even eradic angle would more likely show that phenonema of having the sun in the north especially in the southernmost regions like Dorne.

All those points mean that youre much more limmited in youre models for how the stellar body's and Planetos it's behavior might affect the seasons. A lot of options where one might think of easily for solving this question with astrophysics won't work because of certain observations of how Planetos behave's.

Also, super volcanos on the planet (hard home, doom,etc.) could cause a sulfuric increase in the atmosphere creating an extended winter, preventing solar radiation, essentially causing an ice age on a planet where certain species can thrive. But these "ice ages" could have a delay because of the undistrubed atmospheric conditions. So, the creatures could slowly emerge first before the disturbance induced "winters" take place.

When you think about it, natural callamity's can provide an easier, more workable and straithforward answer to the things that happen during a long night perhaps. Things like a Supervolcano errupting might indeed create the conditions that one would attribute to a long night, being darkness and cold for gennerations maybe as the sun gets blocked out. Such supervolcano's exist on Earth for ex. with the Yellowstone Caldera. One must note that he Yellowstone Caldera has a timely erruption and it's kinda due "soon" too. That timespan tends to be 600.000 years. Other volcano's have afcourse significant shorter timespans before errupting but i guess the time it takes might add to the destruction.

An asteroid can have the same effect and it must be noted that a asteroid inpact might have happened not so long ago, although it did not seem to create the destruction to create a long night "by that way".

In fact given that natural calamity's happen fairly timely, one must have a bit of a reflection for what regards the "lack" of natural calamity's in Westeros and how many there should happen over the timespan of their history and even how many calamity's might have been attributed to magic. The events for ex. that created the neck and stepstones, although attributed to magic, seem like the sort of natural callamity's that could easily happen within a timeframe of thousands of years. Somethign has to give i guess. The destruction of hardhome, a town build near a volcano, also seems rather reasonable to have happened by completly natural causes given the timespan it's been around and yet even that is shrouded in legend.

Seriously if dragonstone ever goes down because of it's nearby volcano i'm sure the people of Westeros will attribute it to the gods exacting their final punischment on the legacy of valyrians.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Planetos is like earth. And before the Long Night, the seasons were normal. Then something magical happened to upset the normal balance. Think of this as a magical "blanket" that enveloped the planet at the beginning of the Long Night. There is a Long Summer blanket and a Long Winter blanket.

This magical blanket has not changed the planet's orbit or tilt. So the planet still merrily orbits through space, encircling the sun once a year. And its normal axial tilt still means that both hemispheres experience regular Autumn, Winter, Spring and Summer during each orbit around the sun.

But the magical blanket - say at an altitude of 10,000m - prevents these normal seasons from penetrating down to the surface of the planet. Above the magical blanket, the seasons are normal. Below the blanket, a Long Summer or Long Winter holds sway. Most of the time.

However, this magical blanket varies over time in its strength and duration. When the magical covering is at its most powerful, and happens to coincide with the normal season which is in place above the blanket, you get particularly cold spells during a Long Winter. But when this magical covering is slightly weaker, and happens to be up against the opposite normal season above the blanket, you find that the normal season sometimes breaks through the magical blanket.

This is when you experience a "Spirit Summer" or a "False Spring" in the midst of a Long Winter. Martin says sometimes such a Spirit Summer is long enough to plant and harvest an entire crop, in the middle of a Long Winter. Meaning it is many months long at times.

Similarly, when a Magical Summer weakens slightly, and it happens to coincide with a normal Winter above the "blanket", you find Summer Snows in the North.

So in short, the planet is still experiencing its normal seasons undisturbed at an orbital scale. These seasons are just not penetrating down to the surface of the planet. They are stopped by this magical phenomenon known as a lopsided Long Season, which forms a barrier somewhere at a high altitude in the atmosphere. And the evidence for this is the times when this magical barrier weakens slightly, allowing the regular season to break through temporarily, even in the midst of the opposite Long Season.

EDIT

It is also more believable that a magical phenomenon can affect the planet at an atmospheric level to achieve the lopsided Seasons, than it is to imagine an effect powerful enough to shift the planet's entire orbit, or axial tilt. Aside from the fact that no axial tilt or orbital situation can credibly be hypothesized that can duplicate the effects that we see on the Seasons.