Did Ramsay sack Winterfell on his own initiative?

[The Pain Yak]

A bit of background, for those who haven't read CoK for awhile: Theon takes Winterfell and finds Ramsay pretending to be Reek in the dungeons. After his sister leaves him with nothing to defend the castle, Theon gets desperate and gives Ramsay/Reek a big sack of gold to hire people before Rodrik Cassel and an army of northerners can arrive. Of course, what Ramsay actually does is return to the Dreadfort and raise up a bunch of men loyal to Roose Bolton, who arrive pretending to be Cassel's allies and use the advantage of surprise to decimate the Stark-loyalists.

Anyway, all that's known. What interests me: what happened between Ramsay leaving Winterfell and Ramsay returning with an army of Dreadfort men?

When he returned to the Dreadfort, did he hastily send a raven to his father saying, roughly, 'Hey dad, Theon Greyjoy captured Winterfell and I suckered him into letting me out of the Stark's dungeons. Want me to wipe out Rodrik Cassel and his men, then burn Winterfell?' Did he seek his father's permission and approval before taking such a drastic action?

Or, as is also possible, did he command the Dreadfort men himself and seize a golden opportunity to undermine the King in the North, thus giving his father his opportunity to seize power, but also acting without his prior knowledge?

This interests me because it would say a lot about how early Roose started developing his intent to betray Robb. If Ramsay acted with his father's consent, then we can say definitively that serious plans for Roose to betray the King in the North started pretty much from the moment Wintefell fell to Theon, if not long before. If he didn't, then Ramsay may very well have forced his father's hand in murdering Robb Stark; if it ever came out that his son and Dreadfort men were responsible for what happened at Wintefell, after all, the father would almost certainly pay in blood as well, which would leave Roose no safe alternatives but to make sure Robb died before any possibility of that arose.

So which is it, do you think? I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated in the text.

[Knight Of Winter]

I think Ramsay acted under orders from Roose. Else, why would he kill everyone and anyone on sight and raze Winterfell but explicitely ordered his men to find the Freys and keep them safe? Only way this makes sense is if Roose, newly wedded to his Frey bride and planning betrayal with his father in-law, told him to do so, though I'm not sure how or when did communication between them take place.

[Snowball]

I think he did it all on his own, but I also think that he thought it out and said that Theon burned Winterfell (I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere). So I think he killed everyone on sight so that the word didn't get out that it was his fault. He thought this all through so that if Robb somehow made it back alive then the blame wouldn't be on him.

[Fire Eater]

Ramsay did it in his own initiative, seeing as his father thought he was dead, and he knew he could just blame the sack on Theon.

[kephv]

I think Ramsay acted under orders from Roose. Else, why would he kill everyone and anyone on sight and raze Winterfell but explicitely ordered his men to find the Freys and keep them safe?

He's not a complete idiot. He simply recognized the value of an important hostage.

[unSonofStannis]

Roose's orders all the way, if he wasn't acting on his good ole daddy's orders then he would've killed the Freys too because hes an animal.

[Har!]

would Roose's men have followed Ramsey without the old man's say so?

Even Ramsey's inner circle are secretly Roose's men. As intimidating as Ramsey can be, Roose is not someone you want to disappoint. I would think he would have to have signed off.

But once word of Winterfell having fallen to Theon was out Roose was already scheming it seems to me. Roose tells Theon he has him to thank for the north, as the Starks were finished once Winterfell was taken.

[juanml82]

Such questions and orders would be too dangerous to be sent by raven - imagine another northern lord fighting under Bolton finds such a letter?

However, Tywin did help plan the RW via raven mail, so who knows?

[The Pain Yak]

would Roose's men have followed Ramsey without the old man's say so?

A fair question, but he did lead Dreadfort men to seize Lady Hornwood's lands, an action which very much displeased the Starks and would have cost him either his head or a lifetime in the dungeons if not for Theon arriving.

And I know Ravens are the next best thing to E-mail sometimes in Westeros, but it makes me wonder if he would have had time to dispatch a raven and wait for a reply. Time was of the essence. If he didn't act soon, the castle would fall to Rodrik Cassel while he was away gathering men.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Ramsay did it in his own initiative, seeing as his father thought he was dead, and he knew he could just blame the sack on Theon.

Plus, wasn't Roose at Harrenhal at the time? Harrenhal is in the southeast portion of the Riverlands, The Dreadfort is slightly above the horizontal halfway point of The North. That's a few days to and fro for a raven. He acted under his own volition for sure.

[Lord_Tyrell]

While I wouldn't put it past Ramsay to do something like this on his own accord, I think Roose told him for the simple reason of protecting Big and Little Walder. Ramsay wouldn't have given a shit about them, but if he was under orders, he would spare them.

[Lord_Tyrell]

A fair question, but he did lead Dreadfort men to seize Lady Hornwood's lands, an action which very much displeased the Starks and would have cost him either his head or a lifetime in the dungeons if not for Theon arriving.

This I think was all Ramsay. I just think Ramsay thought his father would have wanted this regardless and convinced his soldiers to join him.

[Har!]

A fair question, but he did lead Dreadfort men to seize Lady Hornwood's lands, an action which very much displeased the Starks and would have cost him either his head or a lifetime in the dungeons if not for Theon arriving.

And I know Ravens are the next best thing to E-mail sometimes in Westeros, but it makes me wonder if he would have had time to dispatch a raven and wait for a reply. Time was of the essence. If he didn't act soon, the castle would fall to Rodrik Cassel while he was away gathering men.

you raise good points, but did he seize Hornwood without Roose's OK? I think not.

Roose has been using Ramsey as a catspaw, to do things he wishes done but can later disavow ('the blood is tainted it cannot be denied' or whatever it was he said to Robb and Catelyn) when it becomes necessary.

Regarding the raven, I would expect Roose would already be aware that Ramsey was Reek... once Winterfell had fallen to Theon he may have already put his men at the Dreadfort on alert to seize any opportunity. Perhaps they were already marching to Winterfell to betray Rodrik, but by luck Reek/Ramsey met them halfway.

That may be a bit far-fetched, but the point I am trying to make is that once Winterfell had fallen Roose had betrayal on his mind and Ramsey is the perfect instrument... even if Ramsey thinks it is all on his own initiative. For that is exactly how Roose would want it to seem, so he would have plausible deniability.

[Knight Of Winter]

He's not a complete idiot. He simply recognized the value of an important hostage.

Ser Rodrik Cassel would have made a good hostage. So would Cley Cerwyn, Leobald Tallhart and other Nothern lords under Ser Rodrik's command; but Ramsay chooses to kill all of potentailly good hostages except two Frey boys. Which is an action that makes absoultely no sense unless it was ordered by Roose.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Ser Rodrik Cassel would have made a good hostage. So would Cley Cerwyn, Leobald Tallhart and other Nothern lords under Ser Rodrik's command; but Ramsay chooses to kill all of potentailly good hostages except two Frey boys. Which is an action that makes absoultely no sense unless it was ordered by Roose.

Agreed. Lame Lothar later reports that Little Walder wrote a letter to the Twins reporting that Theon was responsible for WF's sack. Whether or not this letter actually exists is debatable, but it reeks (see what I did there?) of some Bolton/Frey complicity. Any way you slice it, Ramsay had no reason to treat the Freys any differently than any of the other WF residents unless dear old dad told him to...

[Lion of Judah]

Ramsay did it in his own initiative, seeing as his father thought he was dead, and he knew he could just blame the sack on Theon.

This would also explain why Roose threw Ramsay under the bus when the question of Ramsay's atrocities were brought up. I think at this point Roose was trying to distance himself from the Hornwood situation just in case his plans blew up in his face.

[zaphodbrx]

We can deduce some of the following by looking at distances and time.

Ramsey couldn't possibly have gone to the Dreadfort and back. We know from ADWD that Deepwood Motte is 15 days ride from Winterfell, and on the map the Dreadfort is even farther. Yet from Theon's POV, Ramsey goes away and returns within like a couple days. Meanwhile, Rodrick was chillin' at castle Cerwyn, which was barely a stone's throw away. As for sending a raven to ask 'permissions' from daddy? Forget it bro, Ravens aren't phone calls. They take days, weeks, even months to fly around. Oh by the way Roose doesn't even know at this point that Ramsey is even alive.

The only reasonable explanation is that Dreadfort troops were on their way to Winterfell anyway, and Ramsey ran into them on the way. This then has two implications.

1. The Dreadfort garrison was on their way to recapture Winterfell as loyal Northern soldiers, but Ramsey convinced them to do the whole betrayal thing. This isn't far fetched, he's their liege lord and a large no. of those soldiers are 'Bastard's boys' with a fearsome reputation.

2. The Dreadfort garrison was on orders from Roose to destroy the Northern forces and sack Winterfell. Ramsey just went along with it.

Both cases support the saving Freys thingy. The commander of the Dreadfort troops would already have been informed of Roose's marriage to House Frey long before.

[SerStinger]

If Roose was already planning to become the Great House in the North and betray the Starks, then it makes complete sense for him to have Winterfell sacked, because that's the symbol of Stark power and its fall will destroy their morale and they will appear finished before the world's eyes.

[Ours if the Fury]

He did it on his own intention he is a bastard and a crazy one at that....

[joluoto]

Roose would have been more careful. At the point when it happened Roose wouldn't have known yet if the plans to get rid of the Starks would come into fruition or be successful. And Roose would want it to look like the Boltons still are staunch Stark loyalists in case something goes wrong, so I simply assume Ramsay did it on his own initative.