Good seven, bad seven?

[HoboJed]

My friends and I have started suspecting that The Seven are actually far more relevant to the story than they first appear. At a cursory glance, it would appear The Faith of The Seven was a false religion that rose after magic started failing, and this is what I used to think. However, that didn't sit well with me, as it seems all other religions/prophecies/dreams/legends (and even songs) seem to have some relevance.

So I started thinking about how they could be relevant and that is when I started seeing parallels with the seven and characters in the book, and that led to me noticing a surprisingly large number of other links to characters and The Seven. Now, I'm sure I'm not the first person to talk about this theory here, but I have a possible extension that may not have been mentioned before.

But first I will recap the basic theory so you know where the extension is coming from.

Simply put, the aspects of The Seven have been (or are in the process of being) reincarnated as avatars. Interestingly, most of the avatars don't fit the aspect they represent in the traditional manner, but still fill the essence of the aspect.

The Father

Represents: Justice

Most likely avatar: Stannis

Why they fit: Stannis is all about justice. His treatment of Davos is a prime example of this.

Why they aren't traditional: After his daughter, Stannis hasn't been able to have any children (despite trying). Is his daughter even his?

The Mother

Represents: Love and devotion

Most likely avatar: Daenyrs

Why they fit: Determined to save the slaves who call her Mother. Also known as Mother of Dragons

Why they aren't traditional: Lost her unborn child and has been told she may never have children again.

The Warrior

Represents: Protection and strength

Most likely avatar: Jaime

Why they fit: Is now determined to protect all men, and strives to avoid bloodshed when possible. Has many references to The Warrior in his chapters ("I'm a Warrior man", "Cersei doesn't need The Warrior, she has me!", etc, etc)

Why they aren't traditional: Lost his hand, and can easily be beaten in a fight, even by mediocre fighters.

The Maiden

Represents: Virtue and honor

Most likely avatar: Brienne

Why they fit: The most virtuous character by far. Wants to do the right thing, always stands by her oaths. Helped redeem Jaime, by being a shining example of virtue. Many references to her maidenhood are made (one funny reference was when she was with Hyle Hunt and they saw three women, one old, one pregnant, and one young, and he said to Pod "It looks like the gods walk among us. Well, at least The Maiden, The Mother and The Crone").

Why they aren't traditional: The Maiden is beautiful and graceful. Brienne is neither of these things.

The Smith

Represents: Hard work and productivity

Most likely avatar: Gendry

Why they fit: He is a smith. He is never happier than when he is working in a forge.

Why they aren't traditional: Well... he is totally traditional... possibly something is going to happen to him soon?

The Crone

Represents: Wisdom and guidance

Most likely avatar: Bran (but could also be Samwell)

Why they fit: His Old God powers give him the ability to guide other people via visions.

Why they aren't traditional: He is a young boy rather than an old woman.

The Stranger

Represents: Death and release

Most likely avatar: Arya

Why they fit: Seems to be a harbinger of death (turned up just in time for Joffrey to suddenly announce Eddard's death, and just in time for The Red Wedding), keeps a list of people she wants dead, and is now with an assassin cult that can change their faces at will.

Why they aren't traditional: She is very well known, being the daughter of a famous lord.

So, that is the basic theory... so far, probably nothing new. Now the extension: What if there is a second seven? What if the second seven are the "bad" versions of the regular seven. That is, whilst they fit the aspect in the traditional sense, what they represent is a twisted form (or opposite) of the aspect.

The "evil" Father

Most likely avatar: Walder Frey

Why they are traditional: Has an insane amount of children

Why they don't fit: wants justice... for himself only

The "evil" Mother

Most likely avatar: Cersei

Why they are traditional: She is a mother (even if her children are the spawn of incest)

Why they don't fit: only has love for herself and her children. Hates basically everyone else in the world.

The "evil" Warrior

Most likely avatar: Gregor Clegane

Why they are traditional: Rediculously strong warrior, even before Qyburn got his hands on him

Why they don't fit: Wants to slaughter everyone, rather than protect them

The "evil" Maiden

Most likely avatar: Sansa

Why they are traditional: Is a young beautiful girl, who is still a maiden

Why they don't fit: Dreams of virtuous knights, but is in fact very superficial. Currently with Littlefinger, who could only make her worse.

The "evil" Smith

Most likely avatar: ??? (I'm at a loss here. Could turn out to be Gendry if he isn't the "good" Smith).

Why they are traditional: Would probably have to be somebody who is an actual Smith.

Why they don't fit: Probably would be more into destruction, rather than production (which could happen to Gendry if his time with unCat pushes him too far)

The "evil" Crone

Most likely avatar: Melisandre

Why they are traditional: While not that old (in appearance, although probably in actuality), she is a "wise" woman

Why they don't fit: Seem to be misguiding people, rather than guiding them.

The "evil" Stranger

Most likely avatar: Jaqen H'ghar (although there are many other possibilities I have for the two strangers... including Arya being the evil one and Sandor Clegane being the good one)

Why they are traditional: Nobody knows who he is, and he kills people.

Why they don't fit: Seems to be happy with killing people before their time.

So there it is. My theory of two sevens... I know it isn't complete, but I don't think we necessarily know enough yet, to fully know.

Edit: Forgot to include the evil crone section

[Morienthar]

There are actually several characters that can be equated with the seven each of the Starks for example can be equated with the seven...with

Ned being the Father

Cat the Mother and so on.

[Crownslayer]

I like the idea behind this, some good examples used but I disagree with Cersei being the evil mother and Sansa as the evil maiden. All of Cerseis actions are driven with her children's safety and well being the motivation behind them, although if The Mother in the seven represents the whole of the realm you may have a point.

I think more suited to the evil maiden role would be Margaery Tyrell, part of her families scheming, thrice married(?) and I maybe be joining the tv show and the books up a bit but she seems she could have a sinister side.

I think there's a lot of characters that could be an embodiment of the 7 in Westeros though.

[Kiss of Fire]

If Gendry (in the future) becomes the evil aspect of The Smith, perhaps Donal Noye can be the good smith, although he isn't a major character.

[HoboJed]

Crownslayer, I totally agree with what you say about Cersei, but I feel it is her attitude to everyone other than her children that is what makes her the "evil" mother.

Margaery is certainly a strong contender for the "evil" maiden. She was definitely on my shortlist, but Sansa is my personal choice. I think we need to see more before we can be certain here, though.

EDIT: Kiss of Fire, I like the idea of Donal Noye being the good smith as he is missing an arm which helps with the non-traditional aspect of him.

[daario's man]

Interesting, although the only evidence of the power of the Seven that I have seen is a trilogy turning into 7 books.

[grand old duke of stark]

Interesting theory, but very speculative. Characters representing the Seven are quite fluid, from which it seems that GRRM is not very interested in it, but just using it as the status quo against which the more magical other religions are seen.

My guess is that while the religion of the Seven isn't especially magical (yet?), it is and will remain the main faith of Westeros. The Old Gods resemble older pagan religions that revolve around trees, nature, astronomy, healing. The modern equivalent would be Wicca, Druidism, etc. Over time these were supplanted in Western Europe and England by Catholicism, just as in the books the Weirwoods and Old Gods are being supplanted by the SEven. That religion does have many trappings of Catholicism: monasteries, orders, itinerant preachers, a female order (Silent Sisters), a central authority in the capital, militant orders. Even the seven are often discussed as seven aspects of one god, just like iCatholicism has the 3-in-1 combination in the Holy Trinity. FWIW, 7 is an important number in Catholic doctrine--severn deadly sins, seven cardinal virtues, etc. The faith of R'hollor, which come from the East and has made little headway in Westeros, is kind of Zoroastrian but with the conversion zeal of Islam. Islam spread well into Asia, Africa, and even bits of Europe within a few centuries of Mohammed.

[Sullen]

>Sansa

>Evil

Ehhhh...

I'd have to say no.

[HoboJed]

First Knight of Genericness, I can see why you might think that, but there is a reason I put "evil" in quotes. I don't think George R. R. Martin thinks in terms of good and evil, so I'm just using the word "evil" to contrast them with the other seven.

However, I should point out that I think both Jaime and Sandor are "evil" characters who have turned (or are at least trying to turn) "good", so it seems only right to me that there should be some characters sliding the other way.

EDIT: To further clarify, I would say that Sansa is currently more misguided than a truly evil character. Just like I don't think Melisandre is truly evil, but rather she is so convinced that what she is doing is right and important that she can always justify her own actions to herself, regardless how bad they are in truth.

[Guest]

This is pretty awesome looking.

[Minsc]

Why is Sansa on the evil list alongside Walder Frey, Cersei Lannister, and Gregor Clegane? In how I personally don't see how being "superficial" is the moral equivalent to breaking Guest Right and mascaraing your guests, killing your husband and ordering people tortured, multiple rapes and murder of innocents that those three fulfill. Moreover, it is not like she is actually that superficial in how she openly recognizes how "ugly" people like Sandor, Tyrion, and Dontos as helped her and have been kind in their own ways.

[King of Winters]

>Sansa

>Evil

Ehhhh...

I'd have to say no.

Yeah, I agree with rest except Sansa being the "evil" maiden.

[Four-Eyed Crow]

Came in here to laugh, got an insightful analysis that's got me thinking. Great job OP. I like it.

[HoboJed]

I see a lot of people not liking Sansa as The "evil" Maiden. I will agree that it is a bit of an oddity.

I'm open to suggestions as to alternative "evil" maidens as it was one of the areas I was least sure about. Keep in mind, The "evil" Maiden would have to be both beautiful and graceful (and actually a maiden), but not be virtuous or honorable.

In other news, a recent re-read of the burning of the seven has led to some change in my thoughts on The Stranger and The "evil" Stranger. The Stranger was described as being part man, part animal, and Davos watched The Stranger's hand burn. To me, that screams Jon Snow. Now this is good news as I had a hard time placing Jon Snow in all of this, however, it does mean that Arya would have to be The "evil" Stranger (there is no doubt in my mind that she is one of the two Strangers). I don't have a hard time with that, but think others might.

[Frozentree]

The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and

Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride.

Brienne has big blue eyes, right?

[HoboJed]

My work colleague suggested using the terms "true" seven and "false" seven, which I think is more descriptive of what I was going for.

I may have solved The Smith problem, but I think it would be hard to say until we see the next book. Basically, just before Brienne and co. reach The Quiet Isle, the septon mentions The Cobbler and then goes on to talk about how how The Smith covers all men who work hard. At the time I thought it was strange, as we had already been told this before, so why tell it again now? To me it seems very possible it was to prime the link between The Smith and Sandor who was currently learning the virtue of hard work (in the form of gravedigging) him on The Quiet Isle. It's a bit of a leap, I know, but it will be interesting to see if that is where the next book takes us with him.

​Edit: Just to clarify, that would make Gendry The "false" Smith, which would probably be due to his time with unCat making him a destructive force.

[FacelessMan21]

I've got a lot of time for this theory, for one, somehow, I hadn't noticed Arya being the harbinger of death and the rest of it makes a lot of sense.

However if, what everyone assumes will happen, Mel brings back Jon then surely she cannot be considered evil, as she will be guiding him back possibly to do great things?

Other than that totally agree with this theory (including Sansa being evil) :cool4:

[ZeeAppoponaxComes]

I like Patchface for the stranger. Spit out of the sea. (What is dead can never die he know-oh-oh) seen in visions surrounded in skulls. Doesn't get a lot stranger. Cold to the touch. About to do something serious-ly bad for our heroes.