Did Roose Bolton really rape the miller's wife?

[Luthien Targaryen]

Well, all I can say is Mrs Miller was one brave lady....

And it kind of shows the facinating contasts to Roose's character, he's very quiet, very polite, quite sophisticated (sitting there sipping his hippocras like some kind of Bond villain...) but still capable of being utterly ruthless, cunning and self interested. Yet he's almost kind to Arya (or am i getting him very mixed up with Tywin Lannister in the TV series?) and Theon. He does give the mill to Ramsey's mother, if only because he's annoyed by the behaviour of the brother in law, and he does provide money for Ramsay's upbringing (which clearly doesn't entirely make up for Ramsay's shortcomings, but hey.) Also, am i right int thinking that bringing up a bastard in his or her father's household isn't as unsual in the north as it is in the south. The only person who seems truely offended by Jon's place at Winterfell is Catelyn, a southerner, and i think there's another noble house that has a Snow in it.

As for why Roose would rape one of his own villagers, I guess seigneurial rights mean that he would feel he had the right to have any woman he fancied. She lived on his lands and was therefore, from his point of view she was his property. If he cared...It's a bit of shock that he should be quite so blasé about killing the miller and raping his wife, because a miller was quite an important person in medieval society. Maybe up in the Dreadfort, millers are easy to come by, but comely lady smallfolk are rare.

He was younger, wilder perhaps, and clearly never really gave much of a damn about what gods or men thought of him, as long as they gave him no trouble. Irreverent young noblemen get up to these sort of things, it doesn't make it right but it does make it likely.

[bemused]

I think Roose believed Domeric was Brandon's bastard ( and that he was right ). With such a strong characteristic as the pale Bolton eyes , and considering the way family appearances persist in the books.. He may have had first doubts if Domeric did not have his eyes.. Dom's eyes are conveniently never mentioned. Domeric and Ramsay must have been conceived fairly close together. I think Ramsay's eyes made Roose doubt Domeric more , but would Dom grow to show other Bolton traits ? .. As soon as he's old enough, Domeric is sent first as a page to Lady Dustin, then as a squire to the Redforts.( which is suitable for a high born boy )... Ramsay is provided for, but not with any sort of education that would curb his nature. This is all Roose's experiment. As Lady Dustin says , he plays with people. His telling remark about Ramsay's mother is that she was healthy looking.. a quality you'd look for in a brood mare.

He kills the husband trying to make sure any child is his , and this probably explains his anger over not being given first night rights. He probably instructs the woman to bring any child she has for his inspection.

When talking toTheon , Roose compares Domeric's riding to Lyanna's , but elsewhere we're told Lyanna and Brandon were alike in their passion for riding and their ability to ride. Domeric and Lyanna were never riding at the same time. By the time Dom was old enough to ride, Lyanna would be dead. No matter what Roose says , I think he's drawing the real comparison between Brandon and Domeric in his mind.

By the time he came home at 13 or 14, Dom may not only have ridden like a Stark , but looked like one too. Roose claims Dom was poisoned and I think he knows so, because he was behind it. Two years after Dom's death , when Robb calls his banners ,Bethany Bolton dies of a "fever" ( and it's possible she suffered from it for those two years ), Roose goes south with Robb, and Ramsay moves into the Dreadfort. He pretty much has carte blanche from his father and maybe some specific instructions ( Lady Hornwood ).

Lady Dustin lies to Theon about herself and Brandon . The love affair was probably between Brandon and Bethany..not Barbrey , and she really blames Roose , most of all , for Domeric's death and Bethany's. As Roose says , she knows how to nurse a grievance. She's determined to not let her true understanding of events or her true feelings known , but she's bent on Roose's destruction.

[Iona]

Bemused, your theory about Brandon Stark being Domerick's daddy makes so much sense, the hints are there! There was some discussion in another thread about Roose, where people pointed out that it was weird that Lady Dustin addresses Roose quite freely when they first meet, no "my lords" and whatnots at all.

It was widely believed that Lady Dustin plays a game of her own and that she has something over Roose, justifying why she speaks to him in a style that most lords would find impolite. If she knows that Domerick wasn't Roose's son, she would definately hold some power over Roose, since it's very likely that the notorious Lord Bolton would not want the smallfolk and lords and ladies laughing at him behind his back. With the added hatred that the Boltons nurture against Starks, I bet Roose would have been mightily pissed off after discovering this.

I bet some of you already have figured this out, but for me this Lady Dustin thing was something that has been really annoying me for quite some time now and it's like a lightbulb went on above my silly little head. This is awesome, I'm so going to get some chocolate from the fridge and celebrate! I love this forum!

[Slim Walda]

I think Roose believed Domeric was Brandon's bastard ( and that he was right ). With such a strong characteristic as the pale Bolton eyes , and considering the way family appearances persist in the books.. He may have had first doubts if Domeric did not have his eyes.. Dom's eyes are conveniently never mentioned. Domeric and Ramsay must have been conceived fairly close together. I think Ramsay's eyes made Roose doubt Domeric more , but would Dom grow to show other Bolton traits ? .. As soon as he's old enough, Domeric is sent first as a page to Lady Dustin, then as a squire to the Redforts.( which is suitable for a high born boy )... Ramsay is provided for, but not with any sort of education that would curb his nature. This is all Roose's experiment. As Lady Dustin says , he plays with people. His telling remark about Ramsay's mother is that she was healthy looking.. a quality you'd look for in a brood mare.

He kills the husband trying to make sure any child is his , and this probably explains his anger over not being given first night rights. He probably instructs the woman to bring any child she has for his inspection.

When talking toTheon , Roose compares Domeric's riding to Lyanna's , but elsewhere we're told Lyanna and Brandon were alike in their passion for riding and their ability to ride. Domeric and Lyanna were never riding at the same time. By the time Dom was old enough to ride, Lyanna would be dead. No matter what Roose says , I think he's drawing the real comparison between Brandon and Domeric in his mind.

By the time he came home at 13 or 14, Dom may not only have ridden like a Stark , but looked like one too. Roose claims Dom was poisoned and I think he knows so, because he was behind it. Two years after Dom's death , when Robb calls his banners ,Bethany Bolton dies of a "fever" ( and it's possible she suffered from it for those two years ), Roose goes south with Robb, and Ramsay moves into the Dreadfort. He pretty much has carte blanche from his father and maybe some specific instructions ( Lady Hornwood ).

Lady Dustin lies to Theon about herself and Brandon . The love affair was probably between Brandon and Bethany..not Barbrey , and she really blames Roose , most of all , for Domeric's death and Bethany's. As Roose says , she knows how to nurse a grievance. She's determined to not let her true understanding of events or her true feelings known , but she's bent on Roose's destruction.

I don't think it was Lyanna he compared Domerics' riding skills with, I'm sure it was a Karstarks daughter. He said , if I remember correctly, Lord Karstarks daughter was half horse herself and Domeric could outride her?. IMO, the Miller's wife came to Roose out of desperation and she probably felt disgruntled by her brother in-law. She was obviously a ballsy woman, as we are led to believe that she encouraged Ramsay to claim his right as heir to the Dreadfort.

[bemused]

Here's the quote. He's not referring to Rickard Karstark. The Starks were much nearer neighbours to the Ryswells than the the Karstarks were.

Theon has just stated that Ramsay is Roose's only son..

“For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin’s page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first.”

Domeric would have been 2-3 years older than Robb and Jon. Alys Karstark is 1-2 yrs. younger than Jon.

Domeric served for 4 years as Lady Dustin's page , and probably wouldn't have begun until he was 6 or so.. even at the end of his service , at about 10 , I don't think a 6-7 yr. old girl would be that far from home ( with Lady Dustin ) or be testing her riding skills against a 10 yr.old boy.

But Lady Dustin may have been much of an age with Lyanna and may have ridden with her herself.

It's Roose who tries to lead people ( in this case , Theon) to believe that Ramsay's mother was pushing him to demand rights.. Do you believe him ? I don't . Roose is always laying blame at other people's door. He doesn't want it generally known what he's up to.

[Iona]

I see people often saying, that the horse-loving daughter of "Lord Rickard" has to be a Karstark, because of the fact that Lyanna and Domeric never "co-existed", but you have to read the passage carefully

Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard’s daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

Emphasis on the words "Lady Dustin will tell you". This passage is very cleverly written. It's Roose that's doing the talking here, but the words are quoted coming from Lady Dustin. She had connections to the previous generation of Starks, and Lyanna and Brandon were compared to centaurs. It's only natural she would compare Domeric to the best riders she knew.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'm still wondering why everybody puts Domeric in Robb's generation instead of Lyanna's or Brandon's. People start squiring during puberty, give or take a few years. He could easily be 20+ when he returned to the North and died a couple of years before the start of the series. A tad younger than Lyanna, or maybe even her age.

Would fit far better with Roose's age as well. Lords tend to get their first childs early and Roose is well beyond forty, 10-15 years older than Ned. Ramsay is in his twenties as well.

[bemused]

But Bethany is very unlikely to be that much older than Barbrey ( if we can trust the layout in the wiki , the two girls were born first , followed by the three brothers.The youngest is named Roose - perhaps in honour of the alliance?)

Just for comparison , look at Ned and Catelyn. They have four children, the oldest 14 the youngest about 3 when the story opens..four children in 11 yrs. I would doubt that the oldest and youngest Ryswell children could be more than say 16 - 18 yrs. apart ,at the most - and maybe less...Since Lady Ryswell seemed to have no trouble conceiving , could there be more than 3 yrs or so between Bethany and Barbrey ? .. Even if she's lying to Theon about her affair with Brandon , Barbrey must have been at least 14 or so at the time, for the lie to be plausible.

And Roose was married to someone else before Bethany.. we don't know for how long , or to whom. We don't know how many are the brothers who died in the cradle and are buried under the Dreadfort.. or whether they were full brothers or half brothers to Domeric...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There are almost 25 years between my grandmother and her oldest sister. That's rather normal for big families like the Rhyswells. Especially since they start getting children in their teens instead of their thirties like today.

Furthermore, Reek stole scents from Bethany years before Ramsay was born. So, Bethany had married Roose before Roose fathered Ramsay. Most likely several years.

[bemused]

Gee, I wouldn't call five children a particularly big family . I,too, have relations a couple of generations back who had a 20+ years between the oldest and the youngest child ..there were 13 of them.. But I doubt , in medieval times, with the attendant medical limitations, if that would be very common..and I doubt if it would be the case in a medieval society that there would be such a spread among 5 children, unless there was more than one marriage, or a few early deaths of children , or the husband was away for years on end ( or the wife was resorting to moon tea with some regularity ) :) But anyway..

We don't know that Reek stole the scent years before Ramsay was born at all..rather the opposite , IMO . When Roose sent him to Ramsay, it was because the mother was looking for someone to be a restraining influence on Ramsay. As Roose tells Theon ,

“I knew the first Reek. He stank, though not for want of washing. I have never known a cleaner creature, truth be told. He bathed thrice a day and wore flowers in his hair as if he were a maiden. Once, when my second wife was still alive, he was caught stealing scent from her bedchamber. I had him whipped for that, a dozen lashes. Even his blood smelled wrong. The next year he tried it again. This time he drank the perfume and almost died of it. It made no matter. The smell was something he was born with. A curse, the smallfolk said. The gods had made him stink so that men would know his soul was rotting. My old maester insisted it was a sign of sickness, yet the boy was otherwise as strong as a young bull. No one could stand to be near him, so he slept with the pigs … until the day that Ramsay’s mother appeared at my gates to demand that I provide a servant for my bastard, who was growing up wild and unruly. I gave her Reek. It was meant to be amusing, but he and Ramsay became inseparable. I do wonder, though … was it Ramsay who corrupted Reek, or Reek Ramsay?”

Bethany was still alive , but we're not told at what point in the marriage the theft took place..

A little later in the conversation , when Theon is trying to say something positive about Ramsay's fighting.. Roose says of Reek ,

Reek was his tutor, the first Reek, and Reek was never trained at arms.

So Reek may have been a bit older than Ramsay by a very few years, but not a lot, because he was still young enough for Roose to refer to him as "the boy", at the same time Ramsay was "growing up" wild and unruly.. and if there's really any question as to who corrupted who , you wouldn't think it was possible that a much younger Ramsay could be doing the corrupting .

In ACoK, at the harvest feast , Lady Hornwood expresses her concerns ..

“Bolton’s bastard is massing men at the Dreadfort,” she warned them. “I hope he means to take them south to join his father at the Twins, but when I sent to ask his intent, he told me that no Bolton would be questioned by a woman. As if he were trueborn and had a right to that name.”

“Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know,” Ser Rodrik said. “I confess, I do not know him.”

“Few do,” she replied. “He lived with his mother until two years past, when young Domeric died and left Bolton without an heir. That was when he brought his bastard to the Dreadfort. The boy is a sly creature by all accounts, and he has a servant who is almost as cruel as he is. Reek, they call the man. It’s said he never bathes. They hunt together, the Bastard and this Reek, and not for deer. I’ve heard tales, things I can scarce believe, even of a Bolton. And now that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily.”

Here, after Robb has gone south, Ramsay is still young enough to be called the boy but could still be 17 or 18 - we know there are plenty of people who still refer to Jon as "boy" in ADWD and he's about 17 or so by then..but Reek has become "the man" . I'd guess he could be around 20...

We should also note that Lady Hornwood refers to "young Domeric". I'd be very surprised if he was older than 14 or so when he died.

A bit farther on ...

It was a few days after Alebelly’s bath that Ser Rodrik returned to Winterfell with his prisoner, a fleshy young man with fat moist lips and long hair who smelled like a privy, even worse than Alebelly had. “Reek, he’s called,” Hayhead said when Bran asked who it was. “I never heard his true name. He served the Bastard of Bolton and helped him murder Lady Hornwood, they say.”

Ramsay/Reek is seen as "a fleshy young man". Again , that makes me think late teens to twentyish... Any way you look at it, I think there couldn't have been much difference in age between Ramsay and Reek .. from the way people speak of them , and from the way Ramsay could successfully masquerade as his "servant".

Roose invitesTheon to verify the Lyanna /Domeric comparison with Barbrey... He doesn't, that we know of .. but for her part, she later volunteers this direct comparison between Brandon and Lyanna.. "He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two." .. it's a two step equation ... Domeric to Lyanna + Lyanna to Brandon = Domeric to Brandon ,by association..

[Castellan]

I think the story is in the book because 'Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother' is a good line. And the idea that Ramsay's nature reflects the violence of his conception.