Did Roose Bolton really rape the miller's wife?

[Panos Targaryen]

In ADWD Roose tells Theon about how Ramsay was born, talking about how he follows the First Night tradition and he raped a miller's wife after killing the miller. Some things struck me as odd in Roose's story.

1) When Ramsay was born, his mother came to the Dreadfort to ask Roose for support or money in raising Ramsay. Would a rape victim of one of the most ruthless lords in Westeros go to his own castle and ask for alimony for his bastard? Wouldn't the woman be terrified to even come close to Roose?

2) Roose is always described as a cold man, with little display of emotion or hedonism. It sounds strange to me, having Roose rape someone just because he liked her. I mean, the story makes the point time and time again about how emotionless he is. And if he is that kind of guy, how come he only has one bastard?

3) Finally, why did Roose kill the woman's brother's husband when he beat her, and then gave her money to raise Ramsay? What did he care about what happened to her? He said he did it so that Rickard wouldn't learn about it, but why not just kill her?

4) Why raise Ramsay as his son, and keep him around him, giving him power etc?

Did he really rape that woman, or was she simply his mistress, and he made that story up to make himself sound more terrifying? Cos Roose makes a a big deal about how important reputation is lots of times in the story.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1) When Ramsay was born, his mother came to the Dreadfort to ask Roose for support or money in raising Ramsay. Would a rape victim of one of the most ruthless lords in Westeros go to his own castle and ask for alimony for his bastard? Wouldn't the woman be terrified to even come close to Roose?

No. She had an advantage, she had a baby to blackmail him with.

2) Roose is always described as a cold man, with little display of emotion or hedonism. It sounds strange to me, having Roose rape someone just because he liked her. I mean, the story makes the point time and time again about how emotionless he is. And if he is that kind of guy, how come he only has one bastard?

We know of just one bastard we can’t be sure.

3) Finally, why did Roose kill the woman's brother's husband when he beat her, and then gave her money to raise Ramsay? What did he care about what happened to her? He said he did it so that Rickard wouldn't learn about it, but why not just kill her?

Because he was afraid about Rickard’s reaction if he learned what happened. He did say that he saw Ramsey’s eyes and they were like his and then he decided not to kill him.

4) Why raise Ramsay as his son, and keep him around him, giving him power etc?

I am fairly sure that he don’t raised him as his son and he didn’t gave him power he used him.

[joluoto]

Yes he did rape her. That was quite clear.

1) I bet she was terrified. She just didn't have any other choice. Probably couldn't make a living as a widow with a bastard, being smallfolk and all.

2) Roose might have been different in his youth

3) This I don't know

4) Well, if Roose had had a choice Ramsay would never come to court. That was Domeric's mistake. A mistake he paid for with his life. And with Domeric dead, Roose had no choice, since Ramsay was the last heir. If Ramsay died, the survival of House Bolton would be in serious jeopardy.

[Glenn of House Patrick]

In ADWD Roose tells Theon about how Ramsay was born, talking about how he follows the First Night tradition and he raped a miller's wife after killing the miller. Some things struck me as odd in Roose's story.

1) When Ramsay was born, his mother came to the Dreadfort to ask Roose for support or money in raising Ramsay. Would a rape victim of one of the most ruthless lords in Westeros go to his own castle and ask for alimony for his bastard? Wouldn't the woman be terrified to even come close to Roose?

2) Roose is always described as a cold man, with little display of emotion or hedonism. It sounds strange to me, having Roose rape someone just because he liked her. I mean, the story makes the point time and time again about how emotionless he is. And if he is that kind of guy, how come he only has one bastard?

3) Finally, why did Roose kill the woman's brother's husband when he beat her, and then gave her money to raise Ramsay? What did he care about what happened to her? He said he did it so that Rickard wouldn't learn about it, but why not just kill her?

4) Why raise Ramsay as his son, and keep him around him, giving him power etc?

Did he really rape that woman, or was she simply his mistress, and he made that story up to make himself sound more terrifying? Cos Roose makes a a big deal about how important reputation is lots of times in the story.

1. Maybe she just faced the facts and realized that raising a son alone isn't easy or cheap, and she know who the father is and wants him to man up.

2. Just because he is emotionless doesn't mean he wouldn't rape someone. Emotionless or not, we know that Roose is one crazy ass mofo.

3. If he doesn't want Rickard to find out, killing her would be one of the last things to do. I'm sure word got around that Roose was the father, and if he killed her it would have drawn suspicion. There isn't anything wrong with Roose paying child support at that point. It was the least that he could do.

4. He's setting Ramsay up to have as big a downfall as possible.

[Bael's Bastard]

Some interesting points, and I do think there is likely more to the story.

[RumHam]

In ADWD Roose tells Theon about how Ramsay was born, talking about how he follows the First Night tradition and he raped a miller's wife after killing the miller. Some things struck me as odd in Roose's story.

1) When Ramsay was born, his mother came to the Dreadfort to ask Roose for support or money in raising Ramsay. Would a rape victim of one of the most ruthless lords in Westeros go to his own castle and ask for alimony for his bastard? Wouldn't the woman be terrified to even come close to Roose?

2) Roose is always described as a cold man, with little display of emotion or hedonism. It sounds strange to me, having Roose rape someone just because he liked her. I mean, the story makes the point time and time again about how emotionless he is. And if he is that kind of guy, how come he only has one bastard?

3) Finally, why did Roose kill the woman's brother's husband when he beat her, and then gave her money to raise Ramsay? What did he care about what happened to her? He said he did it so that Rickard wouldn't learn about it, but why not just kill her?

4) Why raise Ramsay as his son, and keep him around him, giving him power etc?

Did he really rape that woman, or was she simply his mistress, and he made that story up to make himself sound more terrifying? Cos Roose makes a a big deal about how important reputation is lots of times in the story.

1) Desperation, she had no where else to go.

2) I think you have to be pretty cold to rape somebody under her husbands hanging corpse, but that's just me.

3) He explains this himself:

She told me that when her dead husband’s brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill...

4) He didn't want to keep him around, it was Domeric's mistake to seek out Ramsey and befriend him. After Domeric died he probably realized that Roose was his only chance at an heir, and may have even respected the boy's cold murdering ways.

[Sir Tan Lee]

I'll say that the story did strike me odd. It doesn't really make sense for someone like Roose who picked his wife purely on how fat she is to go and rape a random village girl. I did get the feeling that the story was made up but I'll address your points as if its real.

1) Its possible that Ramsay's Mother has the same mental disorder he does. Not all but some types of mental disorders can be passed down. This would explain how bold she was in asking Roose to help take care of him.

2) I kinda already agreed with you in the above text. It sounds like a logically consistent argument to me.

3) Roose doesn't seem like a careless man, just a cold one. I guess he thought that a young girl wouldn't have the guts to tell anyone.

4) I think he gave the woman money and Reek as a condition she'd keep quiet. (that's how I remember it at least) but instead the woman filled the kid's head about how hes owed the Dreadfort and how important he is. Once everyone knew Roose Bolton had a bastard it's probably kind of hard to get rid of him. Also, Roose didn't keep him around. I'm pretty sure he was living with his mom and Reek until Roose's son befriended him.

[Roadside Rose]

he made that story up to make himself sound more terrifying? Cos Roose makes a a big deal about how important reputation is lots of times in the story.

I think Roose lied. I think he made part of that story up to make himself look more formidable, and hid the truth.

I do agree to your observation, why would a woman who was raped, whose husband was brutally murdered by this man, go back seeking him?

I don't buy Roose's story. Besides, why would Roose care about some bastard of his - he married Walda Frey only for the money.

(Again this is my belief, I have no concrete evidence to support it) :cool4:

[Glenn of House Patrick]

There is no incentive for Roose to lie to Theon at that point. Why try to make himself more formidable? Theon's already terrified of Roose and the rest of his lot. There's no more fear to strike into him. He's already broken. I think that whole story was just filler to introduce us to Roose's other motives and his thought processes.

[Robyn El Telram]

Roose is not emotionless at all. He has tons of emotions. Gloat, satisfaction, mistrust, vanity, the list goes on...

Also, consider that his internal politics are centered on having "a quiet people". Quiet as in that they do not tell anyone that there are actually some flayed Stark skins on the walls of the Dreadfort, quiet as in that they do not tell anyone about the people he torture and abuse, etc. etc. Roose certainly has a great deal of lust in him, it just isn't what normal people think about when they hear the word, and more about torturing men to death and raping whoever he wants to rape.

[coil]

There's a theory here around that hypotised that the miller's wife was actually a fairy - or something among the likes - who tricked Roose, I'm really sorry for not being able to find it... don't remember if it was an OP or a comment :(

Iirc the theory recognised that Roose behaviour is quite anomalous (like OP said) and that he basically granted Ramsay's mother whatever she asked, somehow.

There's also the part about Roose suddendly wanting to possess the woman despite her appearance, or the various references to how Ramsay's behaviour resembles the ones beyond the Wall (like Craster's threat to nail toungues on the wall, but there was also something about the Ramsay's girls hunt and his looks).

Iirc, it was Old Nan or Ygritte who told the tales about fairies and child swapping...

In the meantime, an always relevant thread.

I also think that there's something shady involved since the only other miller's wife we get mention of seems to bring some mysteries as well (if we believe Theon to be the actual father of the miller's boys and their kinslayer).

[SeanF]

If the right to the first night is custom and practice in this part of the North, it may be custom and practice that the lord provides some degree of support for any children who are conceived as a result.

[Lummel]

If the right to the first night is custom and practice in this part of the North, it may be custom and practice that the lord provides some degree of support for any children who are conceived as a result.

I can imagine that to be the case, many lords throughout westeros make some provision for their bastards, in the north we have the bastard of Hornwood farmed out to have a noble upbringing, he's not just abandoned.

Also as Roose is the Lord disrespecting his bastard and the mother of his bastard is an act of disrespect towards him. Punishing the miller's family and awarding the mill to the mother is an act of power and authority.

The rape seems out of character, but then from the burning of the book at Harrenhall we know that Roose is capable of pointless vicious acts, even if they aren't such a dominant part of his personality as they are with Ramsey.

[SeanF]

I can imagine that to be the case, many lords throughout westeros make some provision for their bastards, in the north we have the bastard of Hornwood farmed out to have a noble upbringing, he's not just abandoned.

Also as Roose is the Lord disrespecting his bastard and the mother of his bastard is an act of disrespect towards him. Punishing the miller's family and awarding the mill to the mother is an act of power and authority.

The rape seems out of character, but then from the burning of the book at Harrenhall we know that Roose is capable of pointless vicious acts, even if they aren't such a dominant part of his personality as they are with Ramsey.

I got the impression that Roose derived little pleasure from the act, but saw it as his right and duty to rape her.

[SeanF]

I can imagine that to be the case, many lords throughout westeros make some provision for their bastards, in the north we have the bastard of Hornwood farmed out to have a noble upbringing, he's not just abandoned

Also as Roose is the Lord disrespecting his bastard and the mother of his bastard is an act of disrespect towards him. Punishing the miller's family and awarding the mill to the mother is an act of power and authority.

The rape seems out of character, but then from the burning of the book at Harrenhall we know that Roose is capable of pointless vicious acts, even if they aren't such a dominant part of his personality as they are with Ramsey.

I got the impression that Roose derived little pleasure from the act, but saw it as his right and duty to rape her.

[The Lady Lannister]

The miller's wife was taken in by the miller's brother after rape and murder. When she gave birth, the baby had Roose's eyes and the brother threw her out. That is why she was forced to go to her rapist. Lord Bolton had the brother killed and gave the mill to the woman so that the income could support them. Or this is how I remember.

[jarl the climber]

Supposedly Roose does have certian moral standards, one of them is the prohibition on kinslaying. If he found out the woman that he raped was his bastard sister then it might explain his behaivior. He refused to kill the infant Ramsey becuase he had his eyes. He beleived that the child was his. It might also explain why the Miller did not give Roose his first night priveledge. It would also explain why he would not simply kill her. Some people think she was a woods witch who deliberately entrapped Roose.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I like the idea that he may not of and it is possible.

Yet, it seems in his character to do it. His reaction to it, really is, "All in all, a crap day." - So, he remains someone detached from emotion while doing the deed. It was about the power, this filthy peasant dared marry without his consent? Hang him, have the mother and continue on his way. She turns up with a bastard and he's ready to kill them both, but he does have his eyes! Which seems very important when any dealing with Roose is happening. His eyes are always mentioned. :)

So yes, the story sounds plausible because I don't see a reason for him to lie, however, that being said. He may not want Ramsay knowing certain details. "Smitten? My, he's a poet." :3

[jarl the climber]

Actually he never considered killing her when she showed up at the Dreadfort with the baby. He was just going to have her whipped and throw Ramsey down a well.

[Jamie Lannister]

I'll say that the story did strike me odd. It doesn't really make sense for someone like Roose who picked his wife purely on how fat she is to go and rape a random village girl.

Well, sex isn't marriage. It says the whim just came upon him.