Strongest House which is not LP ?

[Valandui]

I'm not really sure that the Boltons were the second most powerful house in the North, just the most opportunistic. Evidence seems to indicate that the Manderlys were probably more powerful at the least.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm not really sure that the Boltons were the second most powerful house in the North, just the most opportunistic. Evidence seems to indicate that the Manderlys were probably more powerful at the least.

Manderlys are richer

[Mrs_Darcy]

I'm not really sure that the Boltons were the second most powerful house in the North, just the most opportunistic. Evidence seems to indicate that the Manderlys were probably more powerful at the least.

I agree. IMO, the second strongest house in the North clearly is House Manderly, since

- they are the wealthiest house (at least according to Jon Snow, but I think, he is right)

- they have the biggest population, since White Harbour is the only city in the North and Manderly seems to control a lot of the South-Eastern part of the North.

Lying a lot more in the south, than for instance the Bolton, Karstarks and Umbers, they should be able to feed a lot more people than these houses. The only thing the Manderlys have going against them is that they are seen as Southerners by the rest of the Northern houses and as such would never be able to lead the North (as opposed to Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers).

IMO, Jon Stark made a great decision, when he took in the Manderlys and gave them some of the best land of the North, because the Manderlys had proven in the Reach, that they were an economical and martial asset, while at the same time they could never dare to overthrow the Starks

[Valandui]

Manderlys are richer

Absolutely. I think the Boltons came out strongest after the Red Wedding, but what as their strength prior to that? The Karstarks were pretty powerful, as were the Umbers. At their full original strength, were the Boltons more powerful than them? It seems kind of unclear.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Absolutely. I think the Boltons came out strongest after the Red Wedding, but what as their strength prior to that? The Karstarks were pretty powerful, as were the Umbers. At their full original strength, were the Boltons more powerful than them? It seems kind of unclear.

Well the Bolton's have been able to stage some semi-successful rebellions against the Starks in the past so they must be kind of powerful I suppose. However I still agree Manderly is the strongest House in the North after Stark (formerly)

Also agree with Hightowers and Redwyne for the Reach. For the Riverlands I would say Frey's and Mallister, partly because any coastal town is usually economically strong.

Westerlands is difficult as there are so many cadet branches of House Lannister, and we also know very little about the Westerlands too. Based on what we do know, I would have to say Lannisters, Lannisters, Lannisters, Lanns.....

Dorne would be Yronwood. Certainly not Daynes, they are only listed as a knightly House so aren't especially powerful

Stormlands could potentially be Tarth but I really couldn't call that one I am afraid.

Vale; Royce

[Erkan12]

Absolutely. I think the Boltons came out strongest after the Red Wedding, but what as their strength prior to that? The Karstarks were pretty powerful, as were the Umbers. At their full original strength, were the Boltons more powerful than them? It seems kind of unclear.

I think that Boltons men are weaker than both Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlys on the battlefield as a warrior.

But they are sure cunning (everyone of them manage to hide their intention from other northerners at the RW) and good about guarding the prisoners and torture...

Best fighters should be Umbers. Richest and best equipment should be Manderlys. And Karstarks should be average. But there is not certain info that which house has more men i suppose... (Only we know that Karstarks gathered 2.300 men after the first call from WF)

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Manderly is by far the most powerful house of the North, the Umbers, Karstarks and Bolton are probably all tied on second place, except the Boltons have suffered least of them in Wot5k, thus being the most powerful of the three.
Hightower is probably the most powerful single house in all of Westeros, practically the most powerful non-pm house in Westeros. By far.

[complexphoenix]

For the North I'd say Boltons can currently field the largest army thanks to Roose's devious strategy of never sending his own men to die when he could send someone else's, but the Manderlys are probably most powerful under normal circumstances.

For the Westerlands I'd guess Marbrands or Crakehalls.

For the Riverlands, Freys.

Vale, clearly Royces.

Iron Islands, clearly Harlaw.

For the Reach, I'd probably say Redwyne is more powerful than Hightower because of the unique strength of their navy, but I can't be sure.

Stormlands, I really have no idea, we haven't really interacted with the Stormlands enough to get a clear picture.

Dorne, probably Yronwoods.

Overall I think a useful method of figuring this out would be to count how many times the House is mentioned by someone who isn't a member of that house or speaking to someone who is. Generally, the more people talk about them the more powerful they probably are. Not foolproof but a good starting point.

[bardstark]

Florent? anybody? the Tyrells seem most bothered by them because of their claim to the Reach.

[Shane the Llama]

I think that Boltons men are weaker than both Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlys on the battlefield as a warrior.

But they are sure cunning (everyone of them manage to hide their intention from other northerners at the RW) and good about guarding the prisoners and torture...

Best fighters should be Umbers. Richest and best equipment should be Manderlys. And Karstarks should be average. But there is not certain info that which house has more men i suppose... (Only we know that Karstarks gathered 2.300 men after the first call from WF)

Why would men from the Bolton lands be inherently weaker than men from any other area? What makes Umber soldiers better fighters? And why are Bolton men good at "guarding prisoners and torture"? We are talking about thousands of people in each of these groups.

In response to the topic:

North: The Manderlys, without a doubt. They are far wealthier than any other Northern house, and rule over some of the region's best land, as well as its only city. A large portion of Northern trade passes through White Harbor, and I seem to recall that they have silver mines.

Riverlands: This is a tougher pick, but my best guess would be the Freys. They don't have the best land in the area, but they do have a well-positioned castle, and they seem to rule over a large area. The Mallisters may be stronger, but from what we currently know, the Freys seem to have the edge.

Vale: The Royces. I don't think this one needs explanation, as it seems to be the consensus.

Westerlands: There isn't enough information for this region. My impression is that the Crakehalls are fairly strong, but that is only because they are one of the more frequently-mentioned secondary houses in the area.

Iron Islands: The Harlaws seem to be fairly powerful. There isn't much to go on, but they are the best candidate.

Reach: The Hightowers are definitely the strongest vassal here. The Redwynes are quite strong, but Hightowers rule over extremely fertile land and the second-largest city in the kingdom. They probably outmatch the Tyrells in personal wealth and power.

Stormlands: This is another region that we don't know much about. The Marcher lords are mentioned as being fairly powerful, but I don't know how strong any of them is on an individual basis. The Swanns appear to be important as well.

Dorne: Yronwoods. No explanation needed.

[complexphoenix]

Florent? anybody? the Tyrells seem most bothered by them because of their claim to the Reach.

Selyse says the Florents can field 2,000 men. That's half what the Freys can muster, and the Reach is the most fertile region, so I'd say the Florents probably aren't even in the top 5 Reach Houses.

[Valandui]

It's hard to tell how strong the other Riverlands houses were as well. We don't really get to see them until after Gregor and Tywin's surprise attack that the Freys didn't seem to be affected by.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Selyse says the Florents can field 2,000 men. That's half what the Freys can muster, and the Reach is the most fertile region, so I'd say the Florents probably aren't even in the top 5 Reach Houses.

:agree: The only reason they may be considered powerful is their claim to the Reach, but given the time that has passed since the time when they had a claim, that is pretty redundant IMO

[complexphoenix]

It's hard to tell how strong the other Riverlands houses were as well. We don't really get to see them until after Gregor and Tywin's surprise attack that the Freys didn't seem to be affected by.

True. It's said that Harrenhal has the richest lands, and the Whents were the strongest bannerhouse in the Riverlands a generation ago, which is why Hoster Tully wed a Whent and why Lord Whent was able to throw "the greatest tourney ever". But now, of course, the Harrenhal Curse has claimed them. That seems to be the usual historical pattern for families that hold Harrenhal: they are rich and influential for a generation or two and then inevitably fall to ruin and die out.

[Erkan12]

Why would men from the Bolton lands be inherently weaker than men from any other area? What makes Umber soldiers better fighters? And why are Bolton men good at "guarding prisoners and torture"? We are talking about thousands of people in each of these groups.

Because it is about their culture. Boltons keep torturing at Dreadfort, usually they are better at that. While other northeners practicing on fighting they are practicing torture, this make them lack of strength like summerboys at the south. Also Umbers known as fierce fighters, and their location is close to Wall and it is known that they are usually fighting with wildlings more than other northern houses.

And Manderlys are richer and has southern culture this provides them better equipment.

[Shane the Llama]

Because it is about their culture. Boltons keep torturing at Dreadfort, usually they are better at that. While other northeners practicing on fighting they are practicing torture, this make them lack of strength like summerboys at the south. Also Umbers known as fierce fighters, and their location is close to Wall and it is known that they are usually fighting with wildlings more than other northern houses.

And Manderlys are richer and has southern culture this provides them better equipment.

These posts aren't satirical, are they? I apologize if they are.

There is one Bolton (Ramsay) who tortures people at the Dreadfort. How many people do you think are involved in that? It's probably just Ramsay himself and maybe a dozen other people, but even if it was as many as 100 people involved, which is obviously not the case, that is a tiny fraction of the Bolton forces. Their army is composed of the same types of people as any other. Those who serve in it do not go home to their personal torture dungeons after each war; they have lives just like any other warriors.

What are 'summerboys'? Are you talking about people like Robert, Sandor, Gregor, Jaime, etc.? Being from the South does not make someone weaker. They will not perform well in the cold North, but the Northerners will not fare much better in the deserts of Dorne.

Your point about the Umbers is closer to the truth, but still a bit off. How many Wildling raids do you imagine the average Umber farmer faces in his lifetime? The vast majority of them would never see a single Wildling, let alone enough that it becomes a significant source of combat experience. Those who live on the fringe of the area might be somewhat capable, but even so, this is totally irrelevant to the strength of an army numbering in the thousands. All of them would receive some training, making raid-preparedness a negligible advantage.

Your statement that the Manderlys have better equipment is the only true claim of the bunch. However, your explanation of it is only partially correct. The 'southern culture' of the Manderly family (and note that this does not apply to their people/army) has no connection to the equipment they give to their soldiers. Their wealth is the sole cause of it.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Because it is about their culture. Boltons keep torturing at Dreadfort, usually they are better at that. While other northeners practicing on fighting they are practicing torture, this make them lack of strength like summerboys at the south. Also Umbers known as fierce fighters, and their location is close to Wall and it is known that they are usually fighting with wildlings more than other northern houses.

And Manderlys are richer and has southern culture this provides them better equipment.

Not this again please!!! Northeners are just as good as fighters from south.

[Erkan12]

These posts aren't satirical, are they? I apologize if they are.

There is one Bolton (Ramsay) who tortures people at the Dreadfort. How many people do you think are involved in that? It's probably just Ramsay himself and maybe a dozen other people, but even if it was as many as 100 people involved, which is obviously not the case, that is a tiny fraction of the Bolton forces. Their army is composed of the same types of people as any other. Those who serve in it do not go home to their personal torture dungeons after each war; they have lives just like any other warriors.

Wow ? So you are seriously saying that there is only Ramsay who torturing people at Dreadfort, i'm shocked. I say many of their forces know about this tortures. There is not any certain info about that so it is depend to personal opinion.

About summerboys, i meant average soldier who fight with no one. Of course highborn are strong about that, since they are using best equipment and best education. I meant men-at-arms. But before Dorne join the seven kingdom, at least Reach's men fighting with their guerilla but it is not happening right now. So Northeners (wildlings) and Vale men (hill tribes) has advantage in that, it is another personal opinion.

[Northern Nomad]

I'm not really sure that the Boltons were the second most powerful house in the North, just the most opportunistic. Evidence seems to indicate that the Manderlys were probably more powerful at the least.

They were before the Manderlys, because the Manderlys only became a house in the North after the last Bolton uprising.

[Shane the Llama]

Wow ? So you are seriously saying that there is only Ramsay who torturing people at Dreadfort, i'm shocked. I say many of their forces know about this tortures. There is not any certain info about that so it is depend to personal opinion.

About summerboys, i meant average soldier who fight with no one. Of course highborn are strong about that, since they are using best equipment and best education. I meant men-at-arms. But before Dorne join the seven kingdom, at least Reach's men fighting with their guerilla but it is not happening right now. So Northeners (wildlings) and Vale men (hill tribes) has advantage in that, it is another personal opinion.

But this isn't subjective. You are saying that the Northerners are just better, because a small portion of their population faces a wildling raid once or twice in their lifetime. Explain how that makes them superior soldiers, and keep in mind that we are talking about maybe a few dozen soldiers among an army of several thousand. It would make no difference in a battle.

Regarding Ramsay, I am just going to quote what I said previously, since you didn't seem to read it properly.

"There is one Bolton (Ramsay) who tortures people at the Dreadfort. How many people do you think are involved in that? It's probably just Ramsay himself and maybe a dozen other people, but even if it was as many as 100 people involved, which is obviously not the case, that is a tiny fraction of the Bolton forces. Their army is composed of the same types of people as any other. Those who serve in it do not go home to their personal torture dungeons after each war; they have lives just like any other warriors."

Do you see how I specifically stated that it is not just Ramsay doing it? Why did you claim that I said Ramsay was the only one when I very clearly did not? My point is that the Boltons have thousands of soldiers, so unless you think Ramsay has several hundred people helping with the torture, it is irrelevant. There is certainly nothing to suggest that Bolton soldiers are actually worse combatants because they torture people instead of training. That statement is just ridiculous.

All of these soldiers will receive training, so the fact that maybe 5% of an army has been in one fight before (a raid) doesn't really matter.