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Dany, Red Priests, and Slavery


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56 replies to this topic

#1 Saga Whitefawn

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:59 PM

A lot of people think Dany has taken a turn down the wrong road. Despite having good intentions, she has often behaved irrational and cruel.

 

Some people point out that she only objects to slavery when it suits here. I wont go into that, but it is relevant here to keep it in mind.

 

There is the offer of the Tattered Prince wanting Pentos floating around. Not so good. And the issue of her having to abandon Meereen to be butchered if she wants to head west. She has to make a lot of sacrifices that conflict her supposed moral compass to get what she wants, and this brings me to subject -

 

The red priests are all slaves. They have their faces tattooed with flames. They buy slaves. Moqorro is a slave. And they seem to be Dany's main backers. I was wondering where anyone thought that might lead? Will she accept slavery if they are her faithful flame worshipping minions that fuel the fires she is going to burn half of Westeros on? Or will she try and bring down the red priests, too? Not likely. But it is an interesting conflict she is going to have to deal with...



#2 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:40 AM

A lot of people think Dany has taken a turn down the wrong road. Despite having good intentions, she has often behaved irrational and cruel.
 
Some people point out that she only objects to slavery when it suits here. I wont go into that, but it is relevant here to keep it in mind.
 
There is the offer of the Tattered Prince wanting Pentos floating around. Not so good. And the issue of her having to abandon Meereen to be butchered if she wants to head west. She has to make a lot of sacrifices that conflict her supposed moral compass to get what she wants, and this brings me to subject -
 
The red priests are all slaves. They have their faces tattooed with flames. They buy slaves. Moqorro is a slave. And they seem to be Dany's main backers. I was wondering where anyone thought that might lead? Will she accept slavery if they are her faithful flame worshipping minions that fuel the fires she is going to burn half of Westeros on? Or will she try and bring down the red priests, too? Not likely. But it is an interesting conflict she is going to have to deal with...


Good topic. I think Daby is headed down a very dark road. I terms of her interactions with the red priests, it seems she will meet Moqorro soon. Of all the representatives of the red god, he seems the most malign (vs old fatty falme sword who I quite like). Her attempt to rule from the heart instead of the head, or the rulebook, will see her spiral endlessly downwards in a black hole of justifications. Sad because I liked her at the start.

#3 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:45 AM

I think stopping the Red religion from slavery would be a whole lot easier than stopping Slavers Bay cities from doing it.

#4 Shireen Shireen

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:48 AM

I think stopping the Red religion from slavery would be a whole lot easier than stopping Slavers Bay cities from doing it.

 

How? It seems pretty central to their operations.



#5 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:52 AM

How? It seems pretty central to their operations.


I agree, the whole idea that someone can just sail in one day and change a whole society for good is a bit too big to swallow. Even with dragons. Especially with dragons.

#6 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:53 AM

 
How? It seems pretty central to their operations.

Most people who follow that religion are not making money through slavery, probably only the big shots at the temples, and they don't have military power as far as I know.
Religions can change rapidly by forming new factions, especially if there's a figure they think is a messiah to lead them in a new direction.

Edited by DaarioKnowsBest, 16 November 2013 - 02:56 AM.


#7 The Dornishman's Widow

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:55 AM

I think stopping the Red religion from slavery would be a whole lot easier than stopping Slavers Bay cities from doing it.

 

I agree. While they use slavery in slave states, their system seems to be more of a quasi freehold: They buy who they can and give them the meaningful life of serving R'hllor (which they see as a very kind thing, I assume).

 

While freeing slaves is about the only thing about Dany that's known to them, they have already thrown their support behind her something fierce. In a way they (most probably) never did for other Targs, with dragons or without. It seems they can't be not too violently opposed to ending slavery.


Edited by The Dornishman's Widow, 16 November 2013 - 02:56 AM.


#8 SeanF

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:57 AM

Thoros isn't a slave.

In general, though, I imagine that being a slave to R'hllor is viewed very differently to being another person's chattel. Dany might object to their purchasing slave children, but she'd probably not object to parents giving their children to a Temple, or adults voluntarily becoming slaves to R'hllor.

#9 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:00 AM

When the Church of England split from the Catholic Church the freaky Catholic Church rules no longer applied to them.
Something like that could be possible with Red God people if it gets serious.
The reformers could denounce slavery and human sacrifice

Edited by DaarioKnowsBest, 16 November 2013 - 03:01 AM.


#10 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:07 AM

Um we are forgetting that Dany has already crossed the Rubicon in terms of slavery, allowing it to reappear (in limited form I'll grant), in Meereen. I think her crusade against slavery is more or less done.

#11 Sevumar

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:09 AM

The only red temples we've seen that use slavery seem to be Volantis and Asshai. We don't have much evidence leading us to believe that red priests outside these areas are any more likely to be slaves than free men and women.

 

The faith of R'hllor looks to be pretty decentralized based on what we've seen in the books so far. I think we might be headed for a R'hllorian schism in the next two books. Benerro has made his position plain, but his power doesn't seem to extend beyond Volantis. Melisandre has an entirely different opinion, while Thoros and his fellows seem not to care about the AA mythos.



#12 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:11 AM

There's still enough evidence to make me believe Dany doesn't like slavery and will try to stop it as best she can.

#13 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:20 AM

There's still enough evidence to make me believe Dany doesn't like slavery and will try to stop it as best she can.


I'm interested in knowing why you think this is so? Seems that post escape from Meereen her priorities will shift to'blood and fire' as per her poison-berry psychedelic trip.

#14 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:23 AM

I'm interested in knowing why you think this is so? Seems that post escape from Meereen her priorities will shift to'blood and fire' as per her poison-berry psychedelic trip.

I see no reason to start liking slavery just because you go on a mushroom trip or whatever.
Even if she leaves Mereen I don't think she'll start buying and selling people. I don't think she will be ok with any of her followers doing it either.

Unless you are one of these people who claim Dany secretly hatched all this so she could easily be a slave owner herself, I've stopped giving that notion my attention.

Edited by DaarioKnowsBest, 16 November 2013 - 03:25 AM.


#15 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:35 AM

I see no reason to start liking slavery just because you go on a mushroom trip or whatever.
Even if she leaves Mereen I don't think she'll start buying and selling people. I don't think she will be ok with any of her followers doing it either.
Unless you are one of these people who claim Dany secretly hatched all this so she could easily be a slave owner herself, I've stopped giving that notion my attention.


No, no, that's not quite what I mean. I think that she is starting to feel a sense of futility in her attempts to reform this horrible society she finds herself in, and the arrival (soon) of Vic and his bunch of cutthroat reavers offering her a ride to Westeros may be just too tempting. And may prove her moral turning point/fall as well. Just where it seems to be heading I feel ...

#16 Shireen Shireen

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:40 AM

Most people who follow that religion are not making money through slavery, probably only the big shots at the temples, and they don't have military power as far as I know.
Religions can change rapidly by forming new factions, especially if there's a figure they think is a messiah to lead them in a new direction.

 

Fair enough, but existing religious leaders can also be extremely intransigent and wield considerable power via their influence. You have a good point saying this is a less cataclysmic shift than an economy that is run on slaving, but is Dany supposed to declare war on them? Would there be much to gain by her doing that?



#17 SeanF

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:41 AM

I see no reason to start liking slavery just because you go on a mushroom trip or whatever.
Even if she leaves Mereen I don't think she'll start buying and selling people. I don't think she will be ok with any of her followers doing it either.

Unless you are one of these people who claim Dany secretly hatched all this so she could easily be a slave owner herself, I've stopped giving that notion my attention.


She may conclude there's nothing more she can do about it, other than ensuring her own followers remain free.

#18 DaarioKnowsBest

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:42 AM

No, no, that's not quite what I mean. I think that she is starting to feel a sense of futility in her attempts to reform this horrible society she finds herself in, and the arrival (soon) of Vic and his bunch of cutthroat reavers offering her a ride to Westeros may be just too tempting. And may prove her moral turning point/fall as well. Just where it seems to be heading I feel ...

I don't think that would make her go Darth Vader and embrace slavery.
If by abandoning slavery crusade, you mean leaving Mereen and Slavers Bay I think that's pretty strong possibility.
I don't think her failing to stop Slavers Bay will be enough to make her be cool with slavery from future followers.
It's a lot easier to uphold no slavery where it's already illegal than to stop it in a place where it's a main cash cow.

Edited by DaarioKnowsBest, 16 November 2013 - 03:43 AM.


#19 Darkbringer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:56 AM

It's a lot easier to uphold no slavery where it's already illegal than to stop it in a place where it's a main cash cow.


That's mostly fair. I have some problems with her attitudes to slavery shifting around, although yes, I don't think she will embrace slavery full-on. She has been very scarred from this experiences however, and when we leave her seems totally lost, literally and figuratively. One way or another, I think we will see a very different person emerging from the Dothraki sea. And I fear not for the better.

#20 Lummel

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:05 AM

My impression from ADWD was that the Rhlloristas liked Daenerys precisely because she was opposed to slavery.  I suspect that they view servitude to Rhllor as being different to being owned by another person.