three-eyed monkey

There is no particular ending I want to see happen. What I want has nothing to do with trying to interpret someone else's story. I'm happy to leave the story to GRRM and just hope we do get an ending.

I would say the mental gymnastics is on your part, making Dany someone inserted by Doran and pushing a theory that Quaithe has something to do with an Asshai plot that isn't going to happen. Who cares about the show? The show writers got practically every character arc wrong. That's why it fell apart as a story. Nobody should have to kill Dany in the end, because the point of the Lightbringer prophecy is that a true sacrifice is required to bring the dawn, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. Dany is the one who must learn to understand that weapons of mass destruction and power built by those means, ruling through fear, is a problem. So if you're looking for a compelling argument for having to kill Dany, you are missing the point.

To say Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai isn't really an honest reading of the passage. Dany asks what is in Asshai that she will not find in Qarth. Quaithe says the truth, which is what she is trying to guide Dany to. No doubt the truth about dragons is in Asshai, but Quaithe never asks Dany to go there. If we're being honest in our reading then we have to accept there are two different interpretations to Quaithe's answer. You say it confirms that Dany needs to go to Asshai, but I say Quaithe is confirming that she will find no truth in Qarth. This is the context in which the conversation takes place, and we see this if we go back a few sentences. Quaithe warns Dany to leave Qarth soon or she will not be permitted to leave at all. And then finishes the exchange by telling Dany why, because she will find no truth there. Dany is the one who brings Asshai into it, because she thinks Quaithe is referring to Asshai when she says pass beneath the shadow, but I believe that assumption is wrong. Quaithe does not want Dany to go to Asshai, she wants her to find the truth, and she will not find that in Qarth. Dany is the danger posed by fire. The dragons giver her the power to win the throne but also the power to turn the realm to ash and charred meat. That's the point of her story. She will embrace the power first, by waking the dragon, but ultimately she must choose between holding on to that power for her own gain or sacrificing it to save the realm.

Again, we have a different interpretation of this. Dany asks where Quaithe would have her go. Quaithe did not say Asshai, she answered with a riddle. To go north she must journey south, etc. A set of directions that require her to go against her natural instincts, just as journeying south would be against the natural instincts of anyone who wanted to go north. Quaithe also says that if Dany is to touch the light then she must pass beneath the shadow. Dany assumes she must be talking about Asshai, for obvious reasons, but I think Dany is jumping to the wrong conclusion. To touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. The light is the truth, which is what Quaithe wants Dany to find, something she will not find in Qarth. But to find the truth and understand it she must pass through the lie, so to speak. In terms of what I have been saying about Dany's arc, her plot points, and the turning Targaryen coin, Dany must wake the dragon and seize power before she can sacrifice that power to save the realm and become a true queen. Only then will she touch the light or the truth or the dawn. This way Quaithe is connected to the main climax of the story rather than a plotline involving the shadow-binders of Asshai. I agree she knows about Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer. The difference between Quaithe and Mel, in my opinion, is that Quaithe understands the prophecy better than Mel does. Quaithe understands that the key point is that Nissa Nissa gave herself willingly. And because I'm saying Dany must be a dragon, then I feel the same thing must apply to Nissa Nissa. My guess is that she was a dragon too. Another difference is their approach to Stannis and Dany. Mel told Stannis he is Azor Ahai and then placed a glamoured sword in his hand, and it's becoming a sort of self-fulling prophecy on Mel's behalf. Stannis wasn't exactly convinced either. On the other hand, Quaithe is trying to lead Dany to come to the truth herself and therefore be convinced of it.

Yes. I'm assuming that because I believe her goal is the Iron throne. Her staying in Essos would be anti-climatic in my opinion. Are you referring to go east before west? Remind me. I agree Quaithe has a motive for what she is doing, that should stand for every character. When I say a mentor character, I mean she is a character that has something to teach Dany. I don't think she's there to root Dany on to be the best she can be. I'd say more guide her to her destiny. I agree that Dany being the Mother of Dragons is central to her destiny, so it makes sense that is why Quaithe is interested in her. The big question I have about Quaithe is why doesn't she just spit it out? What's with all the riddles? Dany even ponders the same thing. The obvious answer is for story reasons, GRRM doesn't want to reveal too much too soon and it gives the reader something to puzzle over. That's fine as an explanation, but I think there must be more to it. I feel Quaithe is trying to lead Dany, the Mother of Dragons, to reach a conclusion herself. That might explain her cryptic approach. It's a bit like a Zen Master, never revealing the truth to their student but leading the student to discover it for themselves. I agree that Quaithe's interest is in Dany being the Mother of Dragons but that doesn't rule out her being Targaryen. If anything, I feel given the strong Targaryen/dragon link in the story, her being the Mother of Dragons fits with her being Targaryen. I agree that dragons do come from Asshai. Again, I feel this must be symbolic as we know we're not going to Asshai, other than more visions perhaps. Dragons are creatures from the Shadow. Shadows represent a projection of power in the books. Dragons breathe fire, yes, but it is a false light that will only lead the realm deeper into darkness. This is what Dany needs to understand before the end if she is to help bring the dawn, in my opinion.

I'll start a new topic a bit later today and we can have that discussion there. We agree on this. It's all good. You always make a strong case and that's the way it should be. As I said earlier in the thread, if Dany is not the daughter of Rhaella, say GRRM came out and confirmed that, then I feel she would have to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Aerys' bastard with Ashara Dayne would be a dark horse, but I think that's more likely a dark star. So I'm not dismissing your theory, it's interesting to me for sure. I've thought about it a lot over the years but I always struggled to connect the dots between Lyanna and the Tower of Joy and Viserys and Darry on Dragonstone. That's worthy of it's own thread too. I'd like to see the whole theory. There's clearly a strong symbolic connection between Jon and Dany, ice and fire, and they will be central to resolving the plot together. So that's my position at the moment, the connections are symbolic rather than one of siblings. But I never say never. I'll address all that in the thread I post about the three fires and stuff. Of course, it's central to Dany's character. She is the Mother of Dragons, and that's something she needs to reflect on, (shout-out to Serwyn of the Mirrorshield again), when she comes to her final decision. I think that she is the Mother of Dragons shows that she is a Targaryen, not that it must mean she's not. I know you say the Targaryens had lost their ability to hatch dragons, but no one else in Westeros ever had that ability. It makes sense to me that GRRM got rid of the dragons for a while so that the Targaryens could be overthrown by a Usurper, setting up Dany's story. The Starks seem to have lost the ability to skinchange too, if Ned's pov is anything to go by. But that ability is back with his children. Magic waned for a time it seems, but the trees have eyes again. If I recall correctly it was at the great pyramid of Meereen when one of her handmaids asked her who she was talking to or Quaithe said something about if you call your guards they will swear I'm not here. I will have to go back and read.

Well, you're using a rather broad definition, though it's not wrong. I'm talking about something specific to story structure for three act stories, like Dany's. It starts with the Initiating Incident, which kicks off her journey, and continues through the First Plot-Point and Midpoint and then on to the Final Plot-Point, which is when the character resolves their inner-conflict or at least learns how to resolve it. Yes, there's a whole chain of events, so if we're going to call each one a plot point then let's call what I'm talking about the three major plot-points. In relation to the structure of Dany's story, we first get the initiating incident. This is her marriage to Drogo in exchange for an army to invade Westeros, that's what gets her journey underway. Then Viserys dies, this is usually called a pinch point but it's a minor version of the first major plot point, things change for Dany, the responsibility to win the throne becomes hers now, but she is still going in much the same direction with Drogo, just without Viserys. The first plot point is where her journey changes direction. Drogo dies, his army abandons her, Dany doesn't know what to do, she walks into the fire and emerges with dragons, and so begins the next stage of her journey. For the first time she is in charge of herself, it's a step from pawn to novice player. It's an escalation of the change in the pinch point when Viserys died, as the responsibility is all hers now with Drogo gone. I don't mean to ramble on but I just want to try an briefly explain what I'm talking about when I say the three fires mark her three major plot-points. GRRM helped identify them by marking each with a fire. He also marked the journey to each plot point with a mount and a treason. For example, the first mount is Silver, who she rode to her marriage to Drogo. The first treason is Mirri, who killed Drogo and Rhaego. The first fire is Drogo's pyre. It has to do with Lemongate theories that suggest that Dany is not a Targaryen. I think her arc works better if she is a Targaryen, because her being one is central to the whole arc. What parts do you feel are not supported by text? What we disagree about is not what's in the text but how we interpret it. You think "remember who you are" means she must be someone else, that's your head cannon. I disagree, I guess that's my head cannon. I do support my position with text, but when we are talking about well known things like Dany's three fires I guess I don't feel the need. But if you need me to support a point I'm making I will. I'm getting these ideas from reading the books. I love the story, naturally, but my main interest is in the craft of story-telling. How the story is structured, how the arcs work, how the themes are developed, how inner-conflicts are created, how character progression is written, all that sort of stuff. As we are analyzing a story, I feel that stuff is relevant. Certainly a mentor figure, but not Dany's main mentor. Yes, because the main elements of Dany's story are symbolized there so there are lots of clues to her destiny. Mother of Dragons, her son Rhaego burning cities, breaker of chains, child of three, bride of fire, Rhaegar and the Prince that was Promised, Jon, Stannis, Aegon, and other significant figures she will encounter. These are all pieces of the puzzle of her arc and need to be understood and put together, it's not just a case of picking the one that supports your theory. Well, if that's the case GRRM has already confirmed that Quaithe has failed, yet curiously she's still around.

@Frey family reunion This debate is just going around in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree. I agree that there is something going on with the lemon tree and the house with the red door and I'm open to it being in Tyrosh or Dorne, not Braavos. However, I disagree that it means Dany is someone else. I can see how this can be taken to mean Dany must remember she is someone else. If that's how you want to interpret it, fine. I see it different. The dragons know. Well, they can't know who she really is if she is someone else, given that they hadn't hatched when this proposed child swap happened. That's obviously not what is meant here. The dragons know who they are. They are dragons, wild beasts, apex predators, weapons of mass destruction. They know they are dragons, but does Daenerys? Dany has now mounted Drogon and is in the process of waking the dragon because that's the only way she can win against the slavers massing against her. She is going to remember she is a dragon. That's the second plot-point, the second fire, when she burns the black-walled heart of Volantis. She will embrace that side of her nature and it will bring her victory, validating her decision and informing her character as to how she can win the Iron Throne. After that she begins her third act and heads for Westeros and the climax of the story as well as her third plot point and fire. But she's not finished remembering yet, because there is another decision to be made when it comes to the climax of the story and the resolution of her arc. Something she told herself she must not forget, back in the first book. She is a link in a chain of kings and conquerors who rule through fire and blood. This is the chain she will break when she sacrifices herself to save the realm. This is the third and final turn in her arc, her third plot point and fire. Lightbringer is the third fire. And the sword that is tempered with her blood, the one the Others cannot stand against, is dragonsteel because it is tempered with the blood of the dragon. So when Quaithe asks Dany does she know who she is, the answer at that stage is no. Not that she is actually someone else but that she doesn't know who she is, which is typical of a coming of age story. Dany is trying to figure out who she is. And this comes back to her inner conflict. She wants to be a good queen who does good things like free slaves and protect her people, but to be a queen and take the throne and hold power she needs to wake the dragon and do some bad things like fight rebellions or whatever, which ultimately bleed the realm. Does she belong to herself like most kings and dragons, - a dragon is not a slave - or does she belong to her people? In the end Dany will decide that she is a queen that belongs not to herself but to the realm and she will demonstrate that by willingly sacrificing herself to save her people. And when she does that she will be remembered as a great queen not a mad queen, remembered forever with love, the thing she lit the third fire for, the thing she was always looking for. Edit: But that's just my interpretation.

That's not my point as I've explained a number of times. Dany's arc is about a girl who is a member of the political elite but who learns that it is complete bullshit. The story is anti elite, told from the point of view of characters who are mainly elite, it's the nobles who play the game of thrones afterall, but need to learn it's bullshit and put it aside to save the realm. Calling me elitist or suggesting that I have an elitist position does nothing for your argument. You don't want Dany to be exceptional, yet you need her to have that exceptional bloodline, which just shows how flawed your logic is. Yes, because she is a Targaryen. You believe that, fine. I don't buy it for a minute. I believe Doran sent his brother to sign a secret marriage pact to marry his daughter to Viserys, but then Viserys died and Dany took up the cause, so then Doran had to rearrange his shit and send Quentyn to Dany instead in the hope she might marry him. I don't think she is not legit, you do. You think she's a "rando" with an exceptional bloodline. Viserys wanted an army to get his kingdom back and several years of trying to win support had failed. Again, it's more powerful if he sells his actual sister for this rather than someone Doran swapped in.

It's the second fire, when she burns Volantis and ends her second act with a victory over the slavers, after which she will begin her third act and turn for home. No but her whole arc works better if she is a dragon rather than a random with the characteristics of a dragon who was swapped in by Doran for no sensible reason.

Varys may not have interest in Sansa, other than assessing that Sansa has value to Littlefinger and wanting to scupper whatever plan he might have for her. Yeah, the gold reward probably was put up by the crown. That's better for Varys as he doesn't have to pay with his own coin. However, Varys trained mice back in Essos, before he moved on to little birds in King's Landing. The mice were orphans, the small and clever ones. Shardrich the Mad Mouse is small and clever. He still might be just a random hedge knight looking for the reward Varys was offering. Either way, if he takes away one of Littlefinger's pieces then I think Varys will be happy.

Plot points are not repeated. Plot points are turning points in the story. Dany has three major plot-points, like most character arcs. Usually called first plot-point, mid-point, final plot-point. Dany's three are symbolized by her three fires. First plot point is Drogo's pyre. This is the end of the first act of her story, where Dany's dragons hatch and she begins her journey as her own queen, even though she only has a small following. Second plot point is upcoming at the end of her second act when she will wake the dragon and undo the bind she is in in Meereen by destroying the slavers with dragonfire. The black-walled heart of Volantis will be the second fire. This is where she will turn from queen to dragonqueen. This is foreshadowed by Drogon replacing the Harpy at the top of the Great Pyramid of Meereen. Dany, the dragon, will replace the slavers at the top of the food chain in Essos. This is where the Targaryen coin turns towards madness, but it hasn't landed yet. Third plot point will come near the end of her third act. Lightbringer will be the third fire she lights, when she sacrifices herself to save her realm, and this is where she turns from dragonqueen to true queen. This is the greatness side of the Targaryen coin and when it lands the world can breath again. Her story turns on her plot points. That's the problem it seems.

You don't need spies to tell you everything. Spies are very helpful but it's still a game like chess or poker. You watch your opponent move their pieces, you try to anticipate and predict and counter, while making you own moves. Equally, Varys can try to predict what Littlefinger is doing. Sansa, a piece of significant value, disappears from King's Landing. It's no stretch to think she might have had help escaping, possibly from another player like Littlefinger. He might not know fully what Littlefinger intends but he sees the piece move and hopes the plump reward to bring her back to King's Landing can disrupt whatever plan Littlefinger has for her.

Exactly. Can't bring it much further than that without dismissing the text. The theory that Dany is someone else starts with an assumed conclusion and then tries desperately to find evidence that supports and explains the conclusion. Her memories that suit your theory are fine, but her memories that don't are dismissed. If you follow the overwhelming evidence from the start of the story to where we are now it leads you to the conclusion that Dany is Dany, without needing to dismiss anything. The lemon tree might not be in Braavos but that doesn't mean Dany is not Dany. Yes it is a moral trap, you're starting to see her dilemma. It's called inner conflict. She wants to be a true queen but if she is to win the throne she needs to unleash war, but if she doesn't win the throne she can't be a true queen. A true queen belongs not to herself but to her people. That's my point. Mad queens do that, and Dany has the potential to be a mad queen, it will even bring her success when she wakes the dragon and burns Volantis at her second plot point, but Dany has not reached her third and final plot point yet. She will choose a true queen's duty to the realm over her own right to the throne, and in doing so become a great queen who sacrificed herself to save the realm. You think your theory does? It's not even a theory, it's just a conclusion you jumped to and are trying but failing to make work. No, where did I say that. That's just another misunderstanding on your part. The moral is about doing the right thing, being true, despite how hard that may be or what it may cost, so it is the means that justify the ends. Winning the throne by whatever means necessary would be the end justifying the means, and Stannis will demonstrate how that goes. This theme applies to kings, knights, all characters really.

I don't think Littlefinger is trying to crash the Iron Bank, he's trying to crash Ilyyrio and Varys's party without an invitation. There was a time when I suspected that Littlefinger's rivalry with Varys was just for show and that they were possibly working together, but I tend to lean away from that now because Varys complained about Littlefinger's meddling in the plan (Littlefinger not Joffrey was the one who hired the catspaw and armed him with a blade he had publicly handed over to Robert and later secretly reacquired, but that's beside the point) and meddling is unwarranted interference. So I don't believe they are working together but we are told Littlefinger and Varys watch each other very closely. I think Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio's plan to bring in King Aegon. Littlefinger's counter move is to create a queen for Aegon to marry, a beautiful and recently widowed queen who brings the North and the Vale to the new king. Littlefinger knows there will be rival suitors, like Highgarden and Dorne, and that's what he means by what little peace the five kings left will not survive the three queens. He anticipates a war for Aegon's hand. But Varys will counter that by taking Sansa off Littlefinger, by way of the Mad Mouse. It might even be checkmate for Littlefinger if that happens.

Then we are reading different stories. Dany motive from the beginning is to win back the throne from the Usurper who stole it and murdered her family in the process. This is the wound she wants to heal, one she shares with Viserys when he is alive and takes up alone when he dies. She makes decisions based on that. She considers that she could be happy being Drogo's queen but resolves that it would be no life for a dragon. She only turned into Slavers Bay to get an army, one that would help her win back the throne. If she is a random Valyrian, then how does that character's arc work? How did she end up with Viserys and Darry? Why does Viserys blame her for killing their mother? Going forward, who can now convince her that she is not who she thinks she is? Will some character reveal it to her? If Illyrio or Varys or Doran tell her that she is not actually who she thinks she is, why would she believe them? How would that work? Who are her parents? Where was she born? Where's the house with the red door? How did she come to be with Viserys and Darry? That is the case now and that's the point. She is the blood of the dragon, the blood of Aegon the conqueror and her family has ruled the realm for 300 years. She bears that tradition as the Last Targaryen, as she believes she is. But that is the tradition she needs to sacrifice to save the realm, and she can't truly sacrifice what she does not possess. That's a main theme of the story. Well I think it means when she reflects on her journey and the price she paid for the throne, her goal, which is the throne, will be lost. That's how Serwyn slew the dragon, by showing it it's reflection. Agreed. Her choices and everything she will have to sacrifice are more meaningful if she is a Targaryen. Part of it. She has an internal conflict because she also wants to win the throne, which stems from her being a Targaryen. She also wants to be a good queen who is loved. These are the things she wants, and she will be forced to sacrifice them to get what she needs, which is to be a true queen and protect the realm whatever the personal cost. Yes, she is essentially a good person. But she has been learning that if she wants to take the throne and rule then she sometimes has to do bad things to get her way. In the end she will have to remember who she is, the good person who began the story. Not that she is someone else. You want her to have the potential to hatch dragons like Valyrians or Targaryens but in the same breath say that there's nothing exceptional about her. I agree that you don't have to be part of some great family to achieve greatness, it does come down to the character's choices and who they are, not their name. The point GRRM is making with Dany is that even if you have the power to rule the world, the thing everyone is fighting for in the series, it's what you choose to do with that power that matters. If that's her character's goal from the outset, then when she gets it could she give it all up to save the realm? Certainly, GRRM's saying that you don't have to part of some great family to achieve greatness, but that point is being made through characters like Davos or Mance.

I accept that Dany could potentially be anyone, same for any character really I suppose. Dany could be Viserys. When she says if I look back I'm lost, maybe she means if I look down I'm lost? Personally I think her story and character-arc work much better if she is who we are told. Some readers think it's about surprises that we can guess at and wait until the next book comes out to find out who guessed right. That's not how good stories work though. Characters are crafted with wounds and goals and traits, they have internal conflict and an external conflict to resolve, and their arcs are created with plot-points where they make decisions that ultimately either succeed or fail to resolve those conflicts. Then there is the symbolism and foreshadowing and themes built into the arc. All of this is part of the story the author is telling us. If you take the Targaryen out of Dany, then you rip the heart out of her arc, in my opinion. If people want to think that she is someone else, fine, I'm just saying I'm not at all convinced.

But this is so contradictory. You say the real Dany was used to make an alliance. An alliance with who? Just Viserys and Willem Darry? But then you say the Targaryens only value is what the plotters around them choose to give them. If that's the case then why do they need to make a secret marriage alliance using the real Dany, who they took back to Dorne in the guise of the Archon's daughter? Then there's the point @Nevets is making. If they swap the real Dany for a fake, then in the eyes of the world it is the fake who is the real Dany. If they later reveal the real Dany the world will think she is a fake produced by Doran. So Dorne end up with the real Dany, who the world thinks is the Archon's daughter, while their fake is who the world thinks is Dany. Even Doran's son Quentyn thinks she is the real Dany. Did Doran neglected to tell him when he sent him off to bring her back? Or did Doran just realize that his fake Dany scheme actually made no sense and the less said about it the better? Besides, he may as well get on board with the rest of the world and pretend the fake he swapped is now the real Dany, she is the one with the dragons after all, and the Archon's daughter, who was the real Dany, is just a pool lounging freeloader he really has no use for.

They should have swapped in a fake Viserys instead, one they controlled, and sold the real Dany to get him his army. But then that would mean the Archon's daughter is really the Archon's daughter.

The way I see it Varys and Illyrio are thieves and confidence tricksters. Illyrio even told Tyrion how their scheme works. Their scheme is quite simple. Varys spied on lesser thieves and took their takings, while Illyrio offered to help the victims recover their valuables for a fee. They both grew rich and Illyrio grew respectable, while other thieves sought out Varys to either slit his throat or sell him what they had stolen. Then they started leaving the gold and gems for common thieves, while they stole information instead. Secrets are worth more than silver and sapphires. In King’s Landing, after the sack, the lesser thieves that Varys was spying on were those who had stolen the throne, the Usurper and his dogs. Meanwhile Illyrio offered to help the victims, the Targaryens, recover their valuables for a fee. The takings of these lesser thieves were the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms. This is where the value of secrets becomes apparent because that’s how Varys would take the lesser thieves’ takings, by revealing the truth about Robert’s children and thus driving a wedge between Baratheon and Lannister, but only when the time was right. That’s why others who might uncover the secret too soon, like Jon Arryn and Ned, were a problem. The timing of the war that the secret would inevitably provoke would have to be right. Jorah told Dany that the arrival of the Dothraki would only unite the realm. Clearly no one in Westeros would want a Dothraki horde coming ashore. The secret would be used to provoke an internal war that prevented any such unity when Viserys and the Dothraki were ready to invade. Illyrio and Varys didn't want an internal war, like the one brewing between the wolf and the lion, to come until Viserys was ready. No one wanted the Dothraki, but they only had a part to play in the scheme. A bigger problem for Illyrio and Varys was that no one would want Viserys as king either. Jorah said as much to Dany and when she thought about it she had to agree. Barristan remembers that even at a young age Viserys showed signs that he was the Mad King’s son. And Willem Darry? It’s odd he never told Viserys about the marriage pact with Dorne, even on his death bed. I think he decided to spare the realm a lot of blood. Illyrio and Varys would have known that Viserys was a bad horse to back because the Seven Kingdoms did not want another Mad King. Even if Viserys won the throne, how long would he have held it for before the realm rose against him, as it had against his father. Viserys was not a sustainable investment. In the eyes of Illyrio and Varys, Viserys was never a king, just a pawn they led to believe the realm would rise for when he returned. And pawns are expendable. If the Targaryens were to return, then the son of Rhaegar, not Aerys, would be smarter the horse to back. Illyrio’s guards stopped Viserys from trying to take Dany’s maidenhead before she married Drogo. Illyrio said that if Viserys had succeeded, he would have ruined years of planning. Surely it did not take years of planning to arrange the marriage to Drogo, so this refers to a wider plan that was in motion before Viserys and Dany came into Illyrio’s care. The Golden Company also lost something valuable, their lands and titles in Westeros, and a century of trying to regain them had ended in multiple failures. But if you wanted your valuables back, then it was known in Essos that Illyro was the man you needed to see. We know Illyrio’s plot with the Golden company goes back a dozen years at least, to when they recruited Jon Connington. Dany remembered that when she was young Viserys feasted the Golden Company in the hope that he might persuade them to take up his cause, but they laughed at him. Yet they had no problem with Viserys joining them with his Dothraki, when that was the plan. It's not that they had a change of heart towards King Viserys, but rather that they understood that he was a pawn and Aegon the king. A return to Westeros under King Viserys was not likely to last long. Jon Connington and Aegon himself believe he is Rhaegar’s son, some speculate that he is secretly a Blackfyre, either could be true but the boy could just as easily be the pisswater prince for all it matters. Power resides where men believe it resides, according to Varys. It’s just a trick. Aegon is the king Illyrio and Varys want to put on the throne, the one they groomed to rule from a young age. Aegon could be real or fake, their scheme works either way. Primarily he’s who Illyrio and Varys need him to be to make the scheme work - a Targaryen king the realm will support, returning lands and titles to the exiles who helped him win the throne and in the process allowing Illyrio to return his client’s lost valuables. Illyrio gains the kings favor and grows his influence in Westeros as much as he did in Essos, while half the lesser thieves like Cersei seek out Varys to slit his throat and the other half to sell him back what they had stolen, which in this context means turn their cloaks back to Targaryen. Dany, who Illyrio once used as coin in his plan, has now become the main threat to the Fat Man’s plan, given that she has a claim to rival Aegon’s and the dragons to back it. Illyrio might have hoped to marry Aegon and Dany, but now that Aegon has sailed west to claim the throne without her, he surely hopes the slavers will end her in Meereen. The plan continues to change to meet the circumstance, but the goal of putting Aegon on the throne has remained the same.

You are the one who brought burden of proof into it. I agree that the same standard should be applied to theories. I'm not guessing that Dany is who we are told, there's plenty of evidence to support that in the text. You are guessing that she is someone else. If you want to develop that guess into a theory, then find the support in the text. That's the same standard, the difference is that your guess is not really supported. I'm not trying to shut down any theory, but that doesn't mean I agree with the validity of every theory. I believe Dany is who we are told she is, and I've made my case above. I welcome any theory, but if it's going to be convincing then it needs to be more than a guess. I don't find any of the theories claiming Dany is someone else to be convincing. There are universal rules of story-telling and both GRRM and Tolkien do follow them. Take for example the hero's journey arc structure, something Frodo and Dany share. Take for example set-up and pay-off, something that both writers use. These are used by both writers because both writers know what works, they understand the rules of story-telling. Now, they can still tell different stories and make different points. I believe the point GRRM is making is that the fate of mankind is in the hands of mankind, not the hands of the gods. You then brought Tolkein into it by saying that can't be the case because it has to be down to the gods, which is something Tolkien alludes to in LotR. I support my position using Jaime and the White Book, and what he says about being free to write what ever he choose. This is not merely about what he writes in the book, it's about him being free to be whatever type of man he wants to be, or at least aspire towards that. You refute that by saying that can't be what it means because it's not down to him, and then you cite Frodo to support your case. If that's your position then you need to find support in ASoIaF because GRRM is making a different point about gods than Tolkien was making. It doesn't matter if we agree with it or not. The point he's making is being made in the text in scenes like Jaime and the White Book and that's what matters to the story he's telling. He's putting that stuff in there for a reason. If he wanted to make the point that Jaime is not free to write whatever he wants, then the scene would have been different and the point would have been made that whatever fills the blank page is not down to Jaime, it's down to the gods. But that's not what's in the text.

Leave as many alternatives as you want on the table. I have no problem with that. I've discussed my position and why I think Dany is who we are told. You are free to disagree. If you think Dany is someone else, great, but if you want to make an argument for that belief then the burden of proof is on you. That's how it works for every theory. There is no burden of disproof on anyone. The reader's personal beliefs should not come into this. GRRM wrote this story, not Tolkien or anyone else, and I'm only talking about what GRRM wrote, because I'm only talking about his story; the themes, character-arcs, plot-points, etc. If you have a problem with the author's world view then feel free to take it up with him. I'm not really interested in that, I'm only interested in his story and his incredible skill as a storyteller.

I'm pretty much of the same mind as you. It's the last two paragraphs of the chapter that are written in third-person omniscient as opposed to third-person limited. That Vic came back on deck rather than went shows that. We do get the characters thoughts at the end of the paragraph, but that's fine in omniscient. The change is taking you out of the character and into the ether, so to speak, because the story does not have an omniscient narrator to go to. So I read it as an out of body or perhaps near death experience. I'm reminded of Varamyr's experience between bodies in the prologue. There are definitely parallels to the scene in Drogo's tent. Both are seemingly innocuous wounds that fester, after which the treatment of the wound is entrusted to magic. The deep, dark, mad laughter heard first tells us that Victarion was in great pain, because he told Moqorro that he laughed at pain. I get the sense that Vic was close to death, if not dead, by the time the laughing was done. The change to omniscient point of view might indicate that his spirit had left his body and indeed the cabin. Then later Moqorro's singing is a high wail, same as Mirri's. Mirri told Dany that no one must enter the tent when she started singing, because she would wake powers old and dark, the dead would dance and no living man must look upon them. When the crew of the ship tried the cabin door it was locked, which suggests Moqorro didn't want anyone entering the cabin during the ritual, and I suspect that's for the reason Mirri gave Dany. I don't know why people always stick around for that creepy stuff but the monkeys were gone. Then there's Vic's arm, blood to the elbow at first and then hideous to look at when healed, burnt like pork crackling, the skin of which would split and smoke. This reminds me of Beric's blood washing over his sword and setting it afire during the Hound's trial. Drogo and Beric were resurrected, albeit different from their former selves. I think it's the same for Vic. I'm not sure if it's a literal resurrection like Beric, or just a symbolic one. After this, his chapter is called Victarion. The Iron Suitor marks the end of chapters with names like the Iron Captain, which are named for roles assigned to him rather than him. We see the same thing with Theon. So I get the sense that Vic is reborn here, with what he believes is his own agenda, but it's very clear that he is growing more influenced by Moqorro and the Red God. While Vic plans on making Dany his bride, I suspect his marriage to fire has already begun.

I'm not saying we create ourselves, and I'm not saying every event in our lives is within our control, because that's clearly not true. I'm talking about the things the characters can control and the choices the characters must make, particularly at their major plot-points, which are decisions the characters will make that determine the direction of the plot. These choices will determine who the characters are in the end, whether they are heroes or villains in simple terms. This point is made by Jaime and the White Book. Every character's future is a blank page, one they fill with what they choose because they are the ones writing their own stories, so to speak. Jaime's has a similar choice laid out before him in his arc as Dany does, because the author constructed it that way. Jaime can be the Smiling Knight or Ser Arthur Dayne. This is the thematic equivalent of madness or greatness. That's why the Smiling Knight is referred to as a madman, and as we know Arthur Dayne was a great knight. He wanted to be Arthur Dayne, but he became the Smiling Knight. But his future is a blank page so he can try to change that and write whatever he chooses, henceforth. I don't see any convincing argument that she is not the Mad King's daughter, nor do I see any convincing argument that she is someone else. So...

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Tyrion's fate is in his own hands and the choices he makes, it's not down to the will of the gods. I'm not twisting the quote. I accept that in the view of people in Westeros, Targaryen's are born either mad or great, and that this is down to the gods. The gods flip a coin, and the world holds it breath hoping that it doesn't land on madness. However, I'm saying that it's not really down to the gods, it's actually down to the choices said Targaryen makes. Regardless of the cards you are dealt at birth, it's how you choose to play your cards that determines who you are. I'm not fighting against that idea at all. I agree that incest is a problem. This point is made by Ygritte talking about a man stealing a wife. The suggestion is that incest can lead to monsters. I agree with you that the reason for this is genetic, rather than a curse of the gods. That may be the hand Dany is dealt, but it does not have to define her. She can choose a different destiny. The themes of the story connect every character. I used the quote to support the point I was making about my belief that all justice and goodness will flow from men. I quoted that in response to your claim that I was endorsing what you called the gods flip a coin idea, which is the opposite of what I'm saying.