History of Westeros

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  1. Maybe not, Robb is initially offered a "daughter" as part of Lord Walder's price for the crossing. When Lord Walder makes him apologize to his "girls" for spurning them, several granddaughters are included. But looking at the end of this part: I had others he might have had, young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted. No, Lord Hoster would not hear of it. Sweet words he gave me, excuses, but what I wanted was to get rid of a daughter. Who was the widowed daughter he could've offered to Lord Hoster?
  2.   Thanks! I've responded in that thread instead of here.
  3.   Agree, a biased source or a mistaken assumption is where I'm leaning as well. I suppose I should be open to the possibility that slavery was part of the Andal ancient past, but I really doubt it despite that anecdote from TWOIAF. I'll explain:   Nearly all the kingdoms/realms/nations are static. Most seem to have an early development period where things get worked out, but after that they stay put in terms of ethics, trade, religion, technology etc.     Westeros has been in this quasi-medieval state for eons. Qarth has been the same for eons. Slaver's Bay. The Free Cities. The Dothraki of four hundred years ago are essentially identical to the ones now in basically every way possible, etc etc. There are shifts of power, conquests, political upheavals, and extinctions... but not many cultural changes. Lorath is perhaps an exception that comes to mind, and there are others. Balon/Euron's dad tried to change the Ironborn and had some success, but once he died Balon tried to bring back the Old Way.   In addition, the Andals were less united than most cultures, at least the ones who came to Westeros during the early waves. It's hard for me to accept that ALL the Andals gave up slavery unless it was a major part of the Faith of the Seven. Otherwise, surely some Andals would enslave (such as First Men armies they defeated), and others would not. But there's zero hint that the invading Andals enslaved a single First Man. If it indeed has been part of the Faith since its inception (since they hated/feared Valyria this fits very well, and the ideals of Knighthood are, in many ways, the exact opposite of Valyrian ruling ideals... but that's another topic altogether).   So the Andals abandoning slavery is possible but the more I think about it, the more problems I find. 
  4.   c'mon now. Not saying you're wrong but you should know better than to say something without posting evidence/proof. :)   Where is this stated? (apart from here). We're told at least a few times that slavery is an abomination to both old gods and new. The Faith of the Seven existed back when the Andals invaded Ib as shown the quote I posted.
  5. Standard disclaimer re: "sorry if this has been posted already"   I came across a curiosity in a recent re-listen of the book.   "Others followed the mazemakers on Lorath in the centuries that followed. For a time the isles were home to a small, dark, hairy people, akin to the men of Ib. Fisherfolk, they lived along the coasts and shunned the great mazes of their predecessors. They in turn were displaced by Andals, pushing north from Andalos to the shores of Lorath Bay and across the bay in longships. Clad in mail and wielding iron swords and axes, the Andals swept across the islands, slaughtering the hairy men in the name of their seven-faced god and taking their women and children as slaves."   The Andals don't take slaves. This is only reference to such and there's plenty to indicate the opposite. This is pretty easily dismissed as a maester error rather than an author error, but it does seem to be an error either way.
  6. On the Daeron the Drunken page: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daeron_Targaryen_(son_of_Maekar_I) appears the following line: "He also told Ser Duncan about a dream he had. A great red dragon would fall on Ser Duncan, dead, but the knight would walk off alive." The word "red" should be removed. Daeron's dream did not specify a color for the dragon, and that makes it seem like some sort of red/black dragon (i.e Blackfyre) reference. GRRM doesn't seem to have even invented (or fully invented) the idea of the Blackfyre Rebellions until after the Hedge Knight.
  7. In addition to SFDanny's comments, I'll add that Prince has several meanings, but it never means "heir". The simplest definition is "close male relative of the royal family" or something similar. Bran & Rickon were Princes after Robb became King in the North, for example. Tommen was a Prince at birth, not because Robert died, etc.
  8. Ran, this is almost certainly a longshot, but is there any chance the audiobook will have corrections? Have Roy re-read a few parts? Or add an errata to the end? Seems unlikely but I'm very hopeful. It would be a shame if the audio version was forever un-corrected.
  9. First, great work on the squires/knights/pages. That's useful stuff. Elaena lived a much longer life than her sister Daena Since we've been trying to figure out if Daena was alive during her son's famous rebellion, this is helpful. It seems she was not, she'd have been ~51 when hostilities broke out. Unless Elaena lived to be 70+ or so (to be fair, this is certainly possible) it's somewhat doubtful Daena was alive when the Blackfyre rebellion broke out. Any idea how long Elaena lived? She certainly outlived all her husbands. For Jon and Jeyne, I definitely agree they were born before Elaena's first marriage. Interestingly, she had 4 of her 7 children after age 35. It's said she had no kids with Michael Manwoody, but it seems like she probably couldn't have done so even if she wanted to. Quite likely too old by then.
  10. I was hoping to find more clues to Edmure's age by dating the floppy fish story, but so far that hasn't helped.
  11. Cool, that sounds like it would be useful. Let me know if I can help. That's a good point, there's gotta be at least 3-5 years between them. I can see 10 year old Cat, 8 year old Lysa/LF not wanting to play with 3 year old Edmure. He wouldn't be able to keep up, etc. On the other hand, he may have just been a really annoying kid and they didn't want him around, haha.
  12. That's a good point. Edmure went to visit Petyr when he was recovering from his wound and was told to go away.
  13. Ok, I can see the logic there. Thanks for the explanation. Does it really make sense to use Dunk's example for the minimum age? He was a squire at that age because of his unusual size, something Edmure obviously does not possess. Also, there's a significant difference between a squire for a hedge knight and a squire for a Lord. I doubt there are any examples of nobly born squires at age 5, or even 7. I'd be surprised if we could find one younger than 8-9. Elmar Frey is the youngest I can think of off the top of my head and he was right in that range, 8-9, when he became Bolton's squire. Ser Arlan had limited means and limited choices for who his squire could be. Brandon would've had plenty of choices, it is not logical to guess that he went with a 5 year old boy. Not only that, but the vast majority of 5 year old boys are not capable of even lifting the armor (not strong enough) nor buckling things properly (not tall or strong enough). This is only possible for unusually large boys.
  14. That's a good point, I can't find Minisa's death date anywhere, I suppose that was invented and is now accepted by many, but shouldn't be. However, Edmure was Brandon Stark's squire when Brandon dueled Petyr Baelish. If he was born in 277 he would be a 3-4 year old squire, an idea we can safely discard. (I'm forgetting what year duel took place, 280?) We can safely assume Edmure was at least 10, probably more like 12, to have served Brandon in this capacity. Thus, even 273 is probably too late. It seems nearly impossible for Edmure to have been born later than 10 years prior to the duel.
  15. I've been doing a little Tully research on the side and I found what appears to be an error in the calculation for Edmure's age. The range in the wiki is set at 267-277, but this cannot be. Edmure's mother Minisa died in 273. So the absolute earliest he could've been born is early 273, and that's a stretch considering she died giving birth what would've been Edmure's brother.
  16. You're like, awesome and stuff.
  17. Thanks for the shoutout! Dawn and Dusk, that's awesome. If some crazy black sword appears we'll know what's up immediately. :)
  18. I see that now. Very cool that you've seen the Deccan Traps in India! However it seems this interpretation of Moat Cailin is based on a misconception. Here is the actual quote: Last night’s rain had left the huge stones wet and glistening, and the morning sunlight made them look as if they were coated in some fine black oil. Thus, the basalt only looks oily because of recent rain in combination with sunlight, it is not their normal state. When we first see the Moat in aGoT (a Catelyn chapter) she mentions the huge basalt blocks but doesn't mention anything about them appearing oily. Perhaps I'm missing another quote, but it doesn't appear so.
  19. Good idea, I like breaking these down into categories and greater detail. Might help us get a bit farther with this mystery. Some thoughts: Moat Cailin doesn't belong in category 1, it's clearly stated to be basalt. I wonder if the meteorite that Dawn was forged from isn't some kind of opposite to the Bloodstone, or otherwise related somehow. Especially given that the Bloodstone is correlated to the Long Night, and Dawn may be correlated with ending it.
  20. You're making a common sense argument (no magic on this scale exists) yet ignoring my common sense argument of Valyria existing for 5,000+ years amongst volcanoes that somehow never erupted. Arguably greenseers are that powerful, even if we assume they had nothing to do with the Hammer or the Breaking (and I do tend to believe those were just natural disasters). I don't see how holding back volcanoes is more powerful than seeing everything that's ever happened.
  21. There is significant evidence (and some common sense) regarding the volcanic activity around Valyria that makes me believe magic must have been involved in the inhibition of said volcanic activity. First of all, we're told that there were sorcerers that did so. This might be dismiss-able except that it is Septon Barth making the claim, and he's a man whose opinions we should not lightly dismiss. There are also clues in AFFC that the Faceless men assassinated such magic wielders to enable the Doom, and these clues are backed up in TWOIAF. A handful of maesters, influenced by fragments of the work of Septon Barth, hold that Valyria had used spells to tame the Fourteen Flames for thousands of years, that their ceaseless hunger for slaves and wealth was as much to sustain these spells as to expand their power, and that when at last those spells faltered, the cataclysm became inevitable. Of these, some argue that it was the curse of Garin the Great at last coming to fruition. Others speak of the priests of R’hllor calling down the fire of their gods in queer rituals. Some, wedding the fanciful notion of Valyrian magic to the reality of the ambitious great houses of Valyria, have argued that it was the constant whirl of conflict and deception amongst the great houses that might have led to the assassinations of too many of the reputed mages who renewed and maintained the rituals that banked the fires of the Fourteen Flames. These assassinations were probably by Faceless Men, if not by the rival families. We could also suppose both were factors. But I think the best evidence might be common sense: Valyria nestled amidst fourteen volcanoes... 5,000+ years with no massive volcanoes ever? Followed by an insane extinction level event where *all* these volcanoes go off at once? This is nothing like the patterns on Earth.
  22. Nice! I looked at it via the world map but it's so much easier having the dots and lines. Perhaps the stones were placed over time east to west or vice versa, but that seems less likely. (fyi you have the Seastone chair in Blacktyde instead of Pyke). I do have to agree with others who are saying we probably shouldn't include the Five Forts this way.
  23. I was there for that reading. He said there were similarities between warg bond and dragon rider bond but they were ultimately very different. iirc he also pointed out that dragons are magical beasts and none of the normal animals that skinchangers can bond with are. It felt like the idea was pretty well shot down, but maybe not completely.
  24. Lord Wyman brought up the idea of marrying her to Ser Rodrik/Maester Luwin/Bran, saying something to the effect of "she was born Manderly, perhaps she'd like to rejoin the family". She herself brings it up herself when speaking to those three (she was against the idea). Of course, technically he's not courting a corpse, so that should be past tense. :)
  25. That's why they are so famous: time travel. Ulmer is bitter that Marty of House McFly didn't take him along.