Sansa and Tyrion reconciliation?

[Dany Girl]

No, he does not marry her as an altruistic move to protect her from Lancel. Of course not. The argument is against the claim that leaving her to Lancel is more moral. It is not.

It's more moral for Tyrion because then Tyrion is not the one causing harm. His hands are clean. How is him marrying Sansa instead of Lancel more moral since her protection is not at all a factor in his decision?

[Hippocras]

Robb sent emessaries to KL with terms while Tyrion was the acting Hand. Tyrion refused those terms and countered in front of the entire court to return both Arya and Sansa for Jaime. Also, Sansa was in the court room at the time and witnessed this offer. As a sign of good faith, he also returned Ned's bones with an honor guard (100 men IIRC). However, the honor guard's real purpose was to attempt to free Jaime. As we know, the attempt failed and Jaime was put in to the dungeons where we later see him with Cat. The honor guard Tyrion sent were killed. It was a completely disingenuous offer.

ah. I am now understanding better.

In this it is obvious that Tyrion KNEW Robb would refuse the offer. The move regarding Arya was certainly sneaky - i don't remember if he knew she was missing. However as he knew Robb would refuse anyway it was pretty safe for him to assume he would not need to produce Arya any time soon. I can't remember - were they still searching for Arya at that point?

Anyway - Robb himself made an offer to the Lannisters that he knew they would refuse. So Tyrion making one in return is fair game.

Then Tyrion tried to free his brother. I don't see anything to get all mad about in that.

[Winter's Knight]

Tyrion sending false envoys:

“Ice,” said Tyrion. “He’ll have that when he makes his peace with us, not before.”
“As you say. And his sisters?”
Tyrion glanced toward Sansa, and felt a stab of pity as he said, “Until such time as he frees my brother Jaime, unharmed, they shall remain here as hostages. How well they are treated depends on him.” And if the gods are good, Bywater will find Arya alive, before Robb learns she’s gone missing.
...


“The men Stark sent are sufficient to protect Lord Eddard’s bones, but a Lannister should have a Lannister escort,” Tyrion declared. “Ser Cleos is the queen’s cousin, and mine. We shall sleep more easily if you would see him safely back to Riverrun.”
“As you command. How many men should I take?”
“Why, all of them.”
Vylarr stood like a man made of stone. It was Grand Maester Pycelle who rose, gasping, “My lord Hand, that cannot . . . your father, Lord ywin himself, he sent these good men to our city to protect Queen Cersei and her children . . .”
“The Kingsguard and the City Watch protect them well enough. The gods speed you on your way, Vylarr.”

...

“Lord Baelish has the truth of it, you know. The queen will never permit you to send away her guard.”
“She will. You’ll see to that.”
A smile flickered across Varys’s plump lips. “Will I?”
“Oh, for a certainty. You’ll tell her it is part of my scheme to free Jaime.”
Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “This would doubtless involve the four men your man Bronn searched for so diligently in all the low places of King’s Landing. A thief, a poisoner, a mummer, and a murderer.”
“Put them in crimson cloaks and lion helms, they’ll look no different from any other guardsmen. I searched for some time for a ruse that might get them into Riverrun before I thought to hide them in plain sight. They’ll ride in by the main gate, flying Lannister banners and escorting Lord Eddard’s bones.” He smiled crookedly. “Four men alone would be watched vigilantly. Four among a hundred can lose themselves. So I must send the true guardsmen as well as the false . . . as you’ll tell my sister.”


“False envoys,” Edmure declared. “They pledged me their peace and surrendered their weapons, so I allowed them freedom of the castle, and for three nights they ate my meat and drank my mead whilst I talked with Ser Cleos. On the fourth night, they tried to free the Kingslayer.” He pointed up. “That big brute killed two guards with naught but those ham hands of his, caught them by the throats and smashed their skulls together while that skinny lad beside him was opening Lannister’s cell with a bit of wire, gods curse him. The one on the end was some sort of damned mummer. He used my own voice to command that the River Gate be opened. The guardsmen swear to it, Enger and Delp and Long Lew, all three. If you ask me, the man sounded nothing like me, and yet the oafs were raising the portcullis all the same.”
...

[Hippocras]

How is him marrying Sansa instead of Lancel more moral since her protection is not at all a factor in his decision?

Because it was better for his family and because he would make a better Lord of Winterfell. Arguably he would even make a better husband.

[Hippocras]

Thanks Winter's Knight.

But if you recall, Robb also sent an offer that was not at all serious.

[Winter's Knight]

Thanks Winter's Knight.

But if you recall, Robb also sent an offer that was not at all serious.

Robb did not send false envoys to break his sisters out though. Using your position as an ambassador to murder your hosts is a serious offence I believe.

[Kittykatknits]

Tyrion would not have had Sansa killed and once married would have had the means to protect her. That claim is quite silly.

The position of master of coin was given to Tyrion as reward for his VERY significant role in the defense of the city. In comparisson, Littlefinger, for his smaller role as negotiator, was made lord of Harrenhal and lord Paramount of the Riverlands. Read between the lines. It was an insult.

Tyrion himself would disagree with you on his ability to protect Sansa. On the very day of the PW, Tyrion realizes that he can not even protect himself, let alone Sansa - especially once Joffrey comes of age.

This is just your words heavy with interpretation. Can you prove this with book references? I have no detailed memories of this part.

This seems to be a reoccurring trend.

ah. I am now understanding better.

In this it is obvious that Tyrion KNEW Robb would refuse the offer. The move regarding Arya was certainly sneaky - i don't remember if he knew she was missing. However as he knew Robb would refuse anyway it was pretty safe for him to assume he would not need to produce Arya any time soon. I can't remember - were they still searching for Arya at that point?

Anyway - Robb himself made an offer to the Lannisters that he knew they would refuse. So Tyrion making one in return is fair game.

Then Tyrion tried to free his brother. I don't see anything to get all mad about in that.

Actively searching for her, Tyrion found out she was missing in his very first Clash chapter.

The point is that Tyrion's actions here, apart from attempts to get his brother back, show just how much Tyrion participated in keeping Sansa a hostage. He very deliberately took action that put him in the position of jailor.

[Hippocras]

Robb did not send false envoys to break his sisters out though. Using your position as an ambassador to murder your hosts is a serious offence I believe.

Did he charge them with murdering the hosts, or simply fighting any guards on the way to freeing Jamie?

I don't dispute it was a sneaky move. He saw little chance for successful negotiations and wanted his brother back I guess. Freeing Jamie was one step to ending a war, which is, in the long run, certainly not a bad thing to try to do.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion sending false envoys:

So what?

Any means is ok if it could free the brother.

[Jory Cassel]

ah. I am now understanding better.

In this it is obvious that Tyrion KNEW Robb would refuse the offer. The move regarding Arya was certainly sneaky - i don't remember if he knew she was missing. However as he knew Robb would refuse anyway it was pretty safe for him to assume he would not need to produce Arya any time soon. I can't remember - were they still searching for Arya at that point?

Anyway - Robb himself made an offer to the Lannisters that he knew they would refuse. So Tyrion making one in return is fair game.

Then Tyrion tried to free his brother. I don't see anything to get all mad about in that.

Please, back up the claim that Robb knew the Lannisters would refuse.

Regardless, even if that had been the case, Robb was nonetheless perfectly willing and able to hold up his end of the peace offer he gave. Tyrion, on the other hand, was neither willing nor able to do so, and the conditions of his were much more severe, which is why your comparison of the two in order to downplay Tyrion's course of action is laughable; genuineness of the offer is to be separated from expectation regarding its reception.

[Dany Girl]

Because it was better for his family and because he would make a better Lord of Winterfell. Arguably he would even make a better husband.

Excuse me while I puke.

So basically, according to Tyrion, the Starks are just losing WF? That's really not how things usually go in wars in Westeros. Balon got to keep Pyke after rebelling. The Tyrells kept HG after RR even though they fought against the rebels. So even if they're able to strike terms with Rob (still a possibility at this point) they're still losing WF. Therefore Tyrion should be new lord? And bi don't see how Tyrion would be a better lord. He'd command no respect from the North Men.

[Hippocras]

Yes, Winter's Knight established above that at the point Tyrion made the offer they were still actively looking for Arya. They had not given her up for dead and still thought she might be in King's Landing.

I am not downplaying Tyrion's actions. I simply see them as quite legitimate. He was fighting in a war on his family's side as was expected of him. He tried to free his brother in a situation where negotiations were not promising. OOOOH what a bad bad man!

Yes, he knew the offer would be refused because he knew that in that social structure his brother was a more valuable hostage than Sansa and Arya.

[Winter's Knight]

Did he charge them with murdering the hosts, or simply fighting any guards on the way to freeing Jamie?

I don't dispute it was a sneaky move. He saw little chance for successful negotiations and wanted his brother back I guess. Freeing Jamie was one step to ending a war, which is, in the long run, certainly not a bad thing to try to do.

Tyrion did, with full leeway and zero coercion, commit an act of war against Sansa's family. The point was being argued because you refuse to accept that he is her jailer and her enemy.

[rystine]

Did he charge them with murdering the hosts, or simply fighting any guards on the way to freeing Jamie?

I don't dispute it was a sneaky move. He saw little chance for successful negotiations and wanted his brother back I guess. Freeing Jamie was one step to ending a war, which is, in the long run, certainly not a bad thing to try to do.

Of course he wanted his brother back, and there isn't anything bad about that in particular. But it does support the idea that Tyrion had no intention of making good on the potential offer for the exchange of Sansa and Arya for Jaime.

[Hippocras]

Excuse me while I puke.

So basically, according to Tyrion, the Starks are just losing WF? That's really not how things usually go in wars in Westeros. Balon got to keep Pyke after rebelling. The Tyrells kept HG after RR even though they fought against the rebels. So even if they're able to strike terms with Rob (still a possibility at this point) they're still losing WF. Therefore Tyrion should be new lord? And bi don't see how Tyrion would be a better lord. He'd command no respect from the North Men.

What does any of this have to do with your conviction that Sansa marrying Lancel, leaving him with "clean hands" is somehow a moral thing to do?

In the end Tyrion asked her if she wanted Lancel instead and she said no it didn't matter. So why are you making a big thing out of Tyrion not leaving her to marry Lancel. It is really bizarre.

You asked for my hypothetical reasons why it would be more moral for Tyrion to marry Sansa than Lancel and I gave them. But since it is hypothetical who cares? There is NOTHING more moral about keeping "hands clean" when Sansa would have been equally screwed over.

[Hippocras]

Of course he wanted his brother back, and there isn't anything bad about that in particular. But it does support the idea that Tyrion had no intention of making good on the potential offer for the exchange of Sansa and Arya for Jaime.

or it supports my argument that he knew his offer would be refused, just as Robb knew HIS offer would be refused.

[Hippocras]

Tyrion did, with full leeway and zero coercion, commit an act of war against Sansa's family. The point was being argued because you refuse to accept that he is her jailer and her enemy.

I do not "refuse to accept" anything. Sansa was a hostage. She was a hostage of his family in a time of war. Unless you are aguing that he should have acted against his family's interests and simply freed her with nothing in return I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[Dany Girl]

What does any of this have to do with your conviction that Sansa marrying Lancel, leaving him with "clean hands" is somehow a moral thing to do?

In the end Tyrion asked her if she wanted Lancel instead and she said no it didn't matter. So why are you making a big thing out of Tyrion not leaving her to marry Lancel. It is really bizarre.

You asked for my hypothetical reasons why it would be more moral for Tyrion to marry Sansa than Lancel and I gave them. But since it is hypothetical who cares? There is NOTHING more moral about keeping "hands clean" when Sansa would have been equally screwed over.

You still haven't given a reason it would be more moral to marry her himself. Being a hypothetical better lord is not a reason. Especially since that was never a consideration to Tyrion.

Knowing harm will be done and letting it happen is not moral, but doing the harm yourself is even less moral than that, and that's my point. Tyrion chooses to do the harm himself. Not for any Alturas reason of protecting Sansa or being a better Lord. Only because it's more beneficial to himself to marry her.

[Jory Cassel]

or it supports my argument that he knew his offer would be refused, just as Robb knew HIS offer would be refused.

Your view of the situation is immensely oversimplifying, there is a vast difference between being unsure how an offer is recepted/ sure that it is declined, but nonetheless being perfectly upright - willing and able to hold up one's end of the bargain if the offer is accepted - and making an offer one is not only unable to fulfill, but also unwilling to. You have yet to supply the quotes showing that Robb was certain the offer would be refused.

[Jory Cassel]

I do not "refuse to accept" anything. Sansa was a hostage. She was a hostage of his family in a time of war. Unless you are aguing that he should have acted against his family's interests and simply freed her with nothing in return I don't understand what you are trying to say.

you claim that Tyrion did not in fact opress Sansa, when this situation poignantly shows that he had the power to dispose of her fate and did so by sending an offer, albeit and disingenuous one, about her return, which proves that he in fact was one of her jailors and did opress her.