That guy Alistair Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I've talked to a few people with different thoughts on how/when he died so I'm curious to find out what others think about it. This is one of my personal favourite parts to read, because as much as I wanted him to die, and was looking forward to his death... when it came I felt alot of pity. As he was clawing at his throat I wasn't thinking "ohh yay there goes the evil king". I was thinking that that was a young boy (13?) who was dying, and was terrifed knowing it, and his mother witnessing it but being able to not do any thing to help. I love this chapter because it can show even when people get what they deserve it isnt always pretty to witness it. So I'm curious if any one one else felt this way? If any one felt sorry for him in that moment, knowing he deserves to die but still feeling bad for him. I think I remember reading an interview with GRRM saying that that was what he was going for, to make what could have been a happy triumphant moment (death of evil king) into a sad/scary moment of a child dying before his mother. But yeah cant find this interview so I could be mistaken (if any one has seen one along those lines please feel free to link it :) ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilúvatar Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 It was a pretty horrific end. I wouldn't say I was particularly happy or sad to see him go that way... I just appreciated the harsh brutality of it. I certainly hope the TV series does it justice and doesn't just have him croaking for a few seconds before dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daario's man Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Yeah it's brutal, Joffrey's fear and Cercei's helplessness are so powerful and it somehow get's worse every time I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 OP: you should change the topic's title. It can be seen from other forums (including tv viewers and new readers, that don't know that Joff is dead). Please, be a little more considerate with spoilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I found Joff to be amusing in some ways, but I can't say I was angered by his death. Do I feel pity for him or Cersei? NAH. Do I cheer it? No. I kind ofwish he were still around though. He was a funny little shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toffeejay Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Compare it with Viserys. He was cruel but I fealt pity when he died in that way because he seem like a product of the rebellion and his own fears and paranoia.He may have ended up mad but I'd wager that if things had been different and he'd grown up as the heir in KL he wouldn't have acted like Joffrey. Joffrey had no justification or reason to be cruel. He got what he deserved and no sympathy from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnape Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'd be lying if I said I didn't think that he brought it on himself with his behaviour. The way he acts towards Sansa is EXACTLY why he died, as otherwise Olenna Tyrell wouldn't have had a reason to poison him. But yeah, at the end of the day, he's just a 13-year-old boy. And his behaviour exactly mirrors that of Cersei (since Cersei was a spoilt little brat when she was a child, and even in the events of AGoT by Tywin). I think he does get too much hate, and Cersei doesn't get enough, since let's not forget, she's the main reason he acts the way he does. I suppose I do feel a little sorry for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry_dresden Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I actually say Viserys deserved what he got but not Joff. Viserys was an adult, Joff was still a kid. Yes Joffrey was a nastier piece of work, but I don't let "excuses" like "victimhood" factor in sympathy for characters. A scumbag is or was a scumbag no matter what he or she went through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberto Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I was actually having a blast the first time I read it, was so excited I was almost jumping the words. Then Tyrion thinks to himself "he's going to die", and all of a sudden it felt brutally real. My stomach turned at that, and I almost wished it wasn't happening. Not that I'm not ultimately happy with it, but it was one of the more powerful and sad deaths in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That guy Alistair Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 @Toffeejay,Though I agree with you about Viserys (and joff not having much justification/reason) I still feel more sympathy for his death then I do for Viserys (which I also find a pretty brutal scene). I'm guessing most likely just once again due to Joff being younger.EDIT: @the Hairy Bear, when I checked on the forum home page, it came up as "how did you feel about Joff.." so figured I was in the clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lissa Nymeros Martell Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I felt very similar. I hope that D&D keep the tone of his death the way GRRM wrote it. I'm curious to hear how show viewers will react to his death. I loved how GRRM wrote the scene to simply show how terrible it is when someone dies. Regardless of if they had it coming. He really plays with that idea often and I think it's one of the story's strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thendel Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think it's a testament to Martin's writing ability that he can make the last minutes of one of the most loathed characters appear so brutal, so merciless that we start pitying the character. I loved Ned, but I didn't feel cartharsis at all when I read that chapter, especially not when Littlefinger later revealed that the assassination wasn't payback for all the atrocities Joffrey had done, but a cold-hearted move to stabilize (or unstabilize, depending on whom you ask) power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 (...)So I'm curious if any one one else felt this way? If any one felt sorry for him in that moment, knowing he deserves to die but still feeling bad for him.I think I remember reading an interview with GRRM saying that that was what he was going for, to make what could have been a happy triumphant moment (death of evil king) into a sad/scary moment of a child dying before his mother. But yeah cant find this interview so I could be mistaken (if any one has seen one along those lines please feel free to link it :) ). If that was what he was going for, he failed in my case. Compare it with Viserys. He was cruel but I fealt pity when he died in that way because he seem like a product of the rebellion and his own fears and paranoia.He may have ended up mad but I'd wager that if things had been different and he'd grown up as the heir in KL he wouldn't have acted like Joffrey. Joffrey had no justification or reason to be cruel. He got what he deserved and no sympathy from me. Actually, Barristan notes that he showed the slight of madness already as a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toffeejay Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Actually I'm just realizing how much older Viserys is compared with Joff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo cool Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I felt pity for Joff (grotesque death) and Cersei (nothing worse than losing a child, all the more so when it's happening in front of you and you're just standing there helpless). Good job GRRM, making us pity two very (very) flawed characters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 It was a horrible end, for a horrible person. It was the one time I felt pity for Cersie, but not Joffery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katt.V Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I always thought he got off easy. How much pain and suffering he inflicted versus how much he had to suffer himself...I remember reading the chapter and thinking "that's it? he's just... gone?".Then again, Martin isn't a big fan of karma or "what goes around, comes around". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Thornhart Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Not brutal enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Supremely brutal and agonizing death. ... ... ...STILL NOT ENOUGH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberto Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I always thought he got off easy. How much pain and suffering he inflicted versus how much he had to suffer himself... I remember reading the chapter and thinking "that's it? he's just... gone?". Then again, Martin isn't a big fan of karma or "what goes around, comes around". Joffrey was a psychotic little devil, but to be fair he never caused that much suffering. Yes, he shot a few peasents, tormented Sansa and Tyrion, had Mycah and Lady killed, almost had Bran killed and, worst of all, broke a million reader's hearts by chopping off Ned's head. Not a good guy by any standards, but in terms of pain and suffering he far lags behind many if not most of the characters in the series. Mace, for instance, starved thousands to death during ACOK, yet Joff's the one who's blamed for the revolts. I imagine the fan reaction would have been vitriolic had he ever dared tear down the heart tree at the Red Keep, but Stannis can do the same (and humiliate the wildlings into burning it nonetheless) and is let off the hook by the same fandom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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