Behind blue eyes

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Nice try genius.

Trying to derail a thread is called trolling, is that what your trying to imply?

that you're trolling?

Wrong, it's called spamming.

YOU SAID

"I think that your first mistake is that you believe that there are Gods in ASOIAF."

You just said no Gods. Like 2 post ago. Look up ^ Thats not saying there is a possibility. You clearly make a declarative statement. Those are your words.

Sure. I believe that there might be one God not Gods (like in the case of the many faced God. One God many faces). Am I right? Could be. Am I wrong? Could be.

And furthermore :) there are Gods in this story. Hello??? what novels are you reading?

Really? I don't remember that we have seen R'hllor or the Great Other or the Drowned God.

[north of the wall]

Back on track.

I love Val so had to jump in. First of all I am hoping the blue eyes are a mistake or trick due to the lighting. Secondly I don't think she is an other (althpugh OP never claimed this but I have seen it suggested before) or the nights queen or anything to do with them!

However I do think the change in clothes and weirwood pin are important and could (hopefully) be alluding to an OG connection, magic, something (?) That can be used to help revive Jon (just coz I dont want another red god revival or Mel to sink her claws into him) but that could quite easily be wishful thinking.

[Snow Dottir]

Back on track.

I love Val so had to jump in. First of all I am hoping the blue eyes are a mistake or trick due to the lighting. Secondly I don't think she is an other (althpugh OP never claimed this but I have seen it suggested before) or the nights queen or anything to do with them!

However I do think the change in clothes and weirwood pin are important and could (hopefully) be alluding to an OG connection, magic, something (?) That can be used to help revive Jon (just coz I dont want another red god revival or Mel to sink her claws into him) but that could quite easily be wishful thinking.

In my opinion it just has to be.

Glad we don't have to wait much longer to go further north! :)

::::Edit in progress:::::

JONS CONSORT QUEEN,

I don't think however that it will end in a romantic "and they all lived happily ever after in perfect love and harmony" way as I really don't see Val resigning herself as a Queen of any kind

Jons lover, yes I see that happening

A possible symbolic wilding marriage that has already occured?? I can get behind that.

"Queen"....her culture would scoff at that and so would she. I see how easily you could ship these two but "happily ever after" just isn't part of this story, anywhere.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Back on track.

I love Val so had to jump in. First of all I am hoping the blue eyes are a mistake or trick due to the lighting. Secondly I don't think she is an other (althpugh OP never claimed this but I have seen it suggested before) or the nights queen or anything to do with them!

However I do think the change in clothes and weirwood pin are important and could (hopefully) be alluding to an OG connection, magic, something (?) That can be used to help revive Jon (just coz I dont want another red god revival or Mel to sink her claws into him) but that could quite easily be wishful thinking.

I agree. I think that is also a nice connection with Ghost as Jon said "they belong together" one of the many foreshadowings that Val is Jon's true Queen.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

I agree. I think that is also a nice connection with Ghost as Jon said "they belong together" one of the many foreshadowings that Val is Jon's true Queen.

As queen as he can get. I' of the opinion (completely an opinion of course) that Jon is going to stay with his vows regardless of what happens with his assassination. The Oath refers to regarding to the defending the realms of men--I don't see a prohibition from taking action that would preserve the realms of men even if you take action against the realms of men (fighting Wildings is obviously an extrapolation of this 'Elastic Clause' [Legal Shout Out?]). I see him more acting in the capacity as a protector who doesn't need the girl. Sure, it would be nice. But it doesn't mean that it is necessary or even the best for the story. Val and Jon could indeed be a power couple, without the sexual intimacy (granted Mel seems to be trying to take that role as well).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

As queen as he can get. I' of the opinion (completely an opinion of course) that Jon is going to stay with his vows regardless of what happens with his assassination. The Oath refers to regarding to the defending the realms of men--I don't see a prohibition from taking action that would preserve the realms of men even if you take action against the realms of men (fighting Wildings is obviously an extrapolation of this 'Elastic Clause' [Legal Shout Out?]). I see him more acting in the capacity as a protector who doesn't need the girl. Sure, it would be nice. But it doesn't mean that it is necessary or even the best for the story. Val and Jon could indeed be a power couple, without the sexual intimacy (granted Mel seems to be trying to take that role as well).

Welcome. I don't think that the discussion about Jon&Val belong here but anyway I don't agree. We have many evidences, foreshadowings and clues that Jon will be the King and the King needs a Queen.

[Snow Dottir]

As queen as he can get. I' of the opinion (completely an opinion of course) that Jon is going to stay with his vows regardless of what happens with his assassination. The Oath refers to regarding to the defending the realms of men--I don't see a prohibition from taking action that would preserve the realms of men even if you take action against the realms of men (fighting Wildings is obviously an extrapolation of this 'Elastic Clause' [Legal Shout Out?]). I see him more acting in the capacity as a protector who doesn't need the girl. Sure, it would be nice. But it doesn't mean that it is necessary or even the best for the story. Val and Jon could indeed be a power couple, without the sexual intimacy (granted Mel seems to be trying to take that role as well).

I hear that. I absolutely dont think Val would be against intimacy :)

I think thats likely, nothing better than freefolk Intimacy !!!!

I just dont see the whole "queen" thing happening at all. Jon is changing alot, seeing things from a free-folk perspective (pissing alot of people off but its great))) Val would never, IMO, become a "queen", I can't wait for the novels to go "farther north than we've been"

maybe....possibly be his fierce freefolk bride, which would be nothing like a traditional Westerosi marriage.

like Grrm said "If you think this has a happy ending, you aren't paying attention"

This isn't going to be a happily ever after situation.

I think Mels time is nearly up....Especially due to Vals importance to Jon and everything.

Hence this is why I truly feel that Val, as a Preistess, could give us that balance (unless it ends up being Mother mole!!!)

I can't grasp why she's being allowed to make Wierwood bonfires??????

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

We can make a new thread if you like, granted posting a link to Val is Jon's true Queen seems contradictory to your belief that it doesn't belong here. Think of it like court. If you introduce evidence then it is fair game in the discussion. You can't just back out and go oh...never mind.

Val and Dalla definitely had some understanding of the powers in the North and the Old Gods themselves. No, it does not mean that they are Old Gods themselves or Others, however the two are definitely linked. Follow the logic train...

1) Thoros of Myr cannot make predictions in the fires on the hill (I forgot the name) where all the Weirwood stumps are. It blocks his powers. Mellisandre ensures that the Weirwood at Storm's End is burnt and seems pretty bent on burning more. Therefore we can assume that the Old Gods are diametrically opposed to R'hallor.

2) R'hallor is in direct opposition to the Great Other and the Others. This really doesn't need evidence but just about every statement that Mellisandre makes can be taken to that effect. With the previous link established we can surmise that the Old Gods and the Others stand on the other side of the scale from R'hallor.

3) Using the information that the Old Gods and the Others both seem to be at their base (disregarding the actions of their agents [also known as the characters]) operate through magical/physical processes in contradiction to R'hallor we can assume they are close together.

Yes, the Old Gods fought each other at one point in time, however in how many instances through history have we had different factions of the same 'religion' fight eachother? The Reformation, the Schism of the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Shi'ites/Sunnis in the Middle East now; you get the idea. The ideologies may be similar and at their foundation are built off of the same text, it does not mean they do not behave differently. The Others and the Old Gods could be two totally different opinions of the same 'text.' Admittedly, the Old Gods are much more palatable and human friendly than the Others.

The Others do not want the death of all humans--> 1) Crastor makes sacrifices to the Others and if they wanted him dead they could have long ago done that. 2) The Night's King was decidedly human but was making sacrifices to the Others for power(and love I guess). 3) At White Tree other dark sacrifices were made to the gods (not clear which ones to). Doesn't seem all bad to me.

If you are going to say that the Others were driving the Wildings South and they were fearing for death, yes...partially. It seems to me that they were herding the Wildings South. The Wall is warded against them and how do you get around that? Drive a force that is not warded against to the Wall (my own little idea here admittedly).

Sacrifices to the Others and the Old Gods do not seem all that different in basic nature. Val says the woods hold no shadows for her, perhaps she has enough knowledge of the other (get it, the Other) half of the coin to know what customs to oblige in order to not be killed by the Others. Kind of like knowing the procession for different kind of churches/customs. I'm not going to send a woman into Saudi Arabia wearing a bikini (extreme example but it conveys the point). Perhaps she just knows what to do--it doesn't mean she has adopted it.

I can't grasp why she's being allowed to make Wierwood bonfires??????

I'm thinking a realistic grasp of the situation. If they make a move against Mel essentially they are challenging the legitimacy of Stannis. You do that and Stannis comes down on you (we all know that is something no sane person wants to have happen) and very likely the Night's Watch as well. It is easier to bear an insult for a time than die and not be able to fight another day.

If there are spelling mistakes I apologize. It happens.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

I completely and utterly disagree. I believe that the main problem is the notion that the Old Gods are the "ice" gods and that there are only two gods R'hllor and Old Gods. Because if someone believe that there are Gods in ASOIAF then (s)he will have to acknowledge all of them and those who may hadn’t appeared yet. Now I think that this happens because the Old Gods are worshiped in the North. However we have to notice that originally the Old Gods were worshiped all over Westeros and they had to be somehow restricted only after the Andals invasion. Now I don’t believe that the sacrifices to the Old Gods have anything to do with the sacrifices to the Great Other since we have seen that the Old Gods need the victims blood to go to the weirwood’s roots and we don’t know if the same applies to the Great Other. The fact that R’hllor can’t *see* near weirwoods doesn’t mean that the Old Gods are the enemy, I believe that it means that the Old Gods’ magic is stronger there.

Now what Val said was:

The horse may be half-blind, but I am not,said Val. I know ... I know the forest better than all your black-cloaked rangers. It holds no ghosts for me.

She uses the word “ghost” which means that she and the rest of the wildlings know who and what they have to fight so it isn’t unknown to them what they will meet.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

I completely and utterly disagree. I believe that the main problem is the notion that the Old Gods are the "ice" gods and that there are only two gods R'hllor and Old Gods. Because if someone believe that there are Gods in ASOIAF then (s)he will have to acknowledge all of them and those who may hadn’t appeared yet. Now I think that this happens because the Old Gods are worshiped in the North. However we have to notice that originally the Old Gods were worshiped all over Westeros and they had to be somehow restricted only after the Andals invasion. Now I don’t believe that the sacrifices to the Old Gods have anything to do with the sacrifices to the Great Other since we have seen that the Old Gods need the victims blood to go to the weirwood’s roots and we don’t know if the same applies to the Great Other. The fact that R’hllor can’t *see* near weirwoods doesn’t mean that the Old Gods are the enemy, I believe that it means that the Old Gods’ magic is stronger there.

Now what Val said was:

You can disagree and I have no problem with that. The logic I'm using if the universe has some sense (kind of like ours) there are positive particles and negative particles. There is an equal amount of matter and dark matter in the universe. Electrons, protons...everything is too purposefully arranged. Saying something is just there....considering it is in diametrics like Ice and Fire seems... silly, at least to me. <--Yes, I do realize there are neutrons. Before you try to get into that.

She uses the word “ghost” which means that she and the rest of the wildlings know who and what they have to fight so it isn’t unknown to them what they will meet.

My apologies. I used the wrong word. I fail to see how this derails the thought process.

[Snow Dottir]

We can make a new thread if you like, granted posting a link to YOUR OWN THREAD seems contradictory to your belief that it doesn't belong here. Think of it like court. If you introduce evidence then it is fair game in the discussion. You can't just back out and go oh...never mind.

Val and Dalla definitely had some understanding of the powers in the North and the Old Gods themselves. No, it does not mean that they are Old Gods themselves or Others, however the two are definitely linked. Follow the logic train...

Nice post

Of course this belongs here, we're discussing Val. More specific Val's symbolism in regards to "Ice". This is so much deeper than shipping Jon and Val it's almost nauseating.

Before you can really debate religion with someone they have to have a grasp on what religions are (which you obviously do) If you don't they simply will not, or cannot understand.

There is obviously major Dualism going on (Ice and fire)

We have Pantheistic religions (the 7)

Everything you said makes total sense and it would, obviously, to someone who understands what A Duality (2 aspects of God) and a Pantheon (all the gods) means :)

Would this duality have factions which would oppose each other? Of course they would. Unfortunately not everyone can follow the logic train because they are stuck at "spoonfed" station :):)

They can't dig themselves out of the quagmire that making declarative statements has led them to. ((see the No Gods, Special gods, 2 gods mess in a previous post)

Melissandre is red priestess, that much no-one can deny. Val will most likely be our white one if it's to be anyone at all..The Freefolk certainly have folkmagic, this gets expressed through woods witches like Mother mole . We have yet to see any "clergy" when it comes to the Old Gods at all. (EDIT::: besides the greenseers, technically)

Right now, like you say, Mel is getting away with some truly vile offenses to the Old Gods. I'm really hoping she ends up being the final sacrifice to R'hollor . Her and her mustache having queen!!!

the novels will answer everything and it won't be all conjecture...And thankfully, winter is finally coming:)

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

Covering my bases from the post above before there is an offensive against it, regarding a neutral faction: No it is not the Old Gods. If anything is neutral it would be the Faith of the Seven; they are a completely man made entity that have exercised literally ZERO magical properties. The Old Gods, the Others, and the R'hallorists exhibit power (even the Faceless men can do glamours). The Seven? Not so much. Don't square peg, round hole the Old Gods into a neutral faction.

I believe that the main problem is the notion that the Old Gods are the "ice" gods and that there are only two gods R'hllor and Old Gods.

GRRM, is that you?

I don't see how one (as a reader) can only believe in one power in Planetos. The R'hallorists obviously believe in at least two, for R'hallor to exist the Great Other has to. You have the Storm gods, the Drowned god, all the death gods, the Dothraki (sorry, I found Dany's chapters particularly inconsequential and don't remember), the Lhazareen with their shepherds etc. etc. etc. Point being, there are obviously more than one or two. If that is a heartfelt belief I never took you to be a Stannis supporter (One God, One King, One Realm). Stannis' Queen Consort? I do like the ring of it. God/gods/Others/R'hallor/Storm God/Drowned God/ The Black Goat/the Many Faced God ect. knows the man needs some loving.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You can disagree and I have no problem with that. The logic I'm using if the universe has some sense (kind of like ours) there are positive particles and negative particles. There is an equal amount of matter and dark matter in the universe. Electrons, protons...everything is too purposefully arranged. Saying something is just there....considering it is in diametrics like Ice and Fire seems... silly, at least to me. <--Yes, I do realize there are neutrons. Before you try to get into that.

Yet again. If you believe that there are Gods in GRRTH why do you believe that the Old Gods=Great Other. I think that what I am asking is very clear. I am not questioning the Ice and Fire analogues; I am questioning the logic (?) behind the connection of the paganistic religion of the Old Gods with the Great Other.

My apologies. I used the wrong word. I fail to see how this derails the thought process.

It doesn't derails it, it change the meaning.

GRRM, is that you?

I don't see how one (as a reader) can only believe in one power in Planetos. The R'hallorists obviously believe in at least two, for R'hallor to exist the Great Other has to. You have the Storm gods, the Drowned god, all the death gods, the Dothraki (sorry, I found Dany's chapters particularly inconsequential and don't remember), the Lhazareen with their shepherds etc. etc. etc. Point being, there are obviously more than one or two. If that is a heartfelt belief I never took you to be a Stannis supporter (One God, One King, One Realm). Stannis' Queen Consort? I do like the ring of it. God/gods/Others/R'hallor/Storm God/Drowned God/ The Black Goat/the Many Faced God ect. knows the man needs some loving.

And? Do I have to yet again explain something that I have said countless times in this thread? Ok then once more;

1. We don't know if there are Gods in ASOIAF. We have seen magic sure but Gods? The closer thing to a God we have seen is BloodRaven and BloodBran.

2. If there are gods why there are only two gods and not multiple? Meaning that if there are Gods why the Others have any connection with the Old Gods and they haven't got a God of their own?

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

....You just said the opposite not in the last page of the posting! :bang: Obviously anything substantive is going to be refuted by an, "I don't feel like that is the truth." There is no work to be done here.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

....You just said the opposite not in the last page of the posting! :bang: Obviously anything substantive is going to be refuted by an, "I don't feel like that is the truth." There is no work to be done here.

So you can't explain how the Great Other is connected to the Old Gods? Lol ok.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

This time read it.

We can make a new thread if you like, granted posting a link to Val is Jon's true Queen seems contradictory to your belief that it doesn't belong here. Think of it like court. If you introduce evidence then it is fair game in the discussion. You can't just back out and go oh...never mind.

Val and Dalla definitely had some understanding of the powers in the North and the Old Gods themselves. No, it does not mean that they are Old Gods themselves or Others, however the two are definitely linked. Follow the logic train...

1) Thoros of Myr cannot make predictions in the fires on the hill (I forgot the name) where all the Weirwood stumps are. It blocks his powers. Mellisandre ensures that the Weirwood at Storm's End is burnt and seems pretty bent on burning more. Therefore we can assume that the Old Gods are diametrically opposed to R'hallor.

2) R'hallor is in direct opposition to the Great Other and the Others. This really doesn't need evidence but just about every statement that Mellisandre makes can be taken to that effect. With the previous link established we can surmise that the Old Gods and the Others stand on the other side of the scale from R'hallor.

3) Using the information that the Old Gods and the Others both seem to be at their base (disregarding the actions of their agents [also known as the characters]) operate through magical/physical processes in contradiction to R'hallor we can assume they are close together.

Yes, the Old Gods fought each other at one point in time, however in how many instances through history have we had different factions of the same 'religion' fight eachother? The Reformation, the Schism of the Catholic/Orthodox Church, Shi'ites/Sunnis in the Middle East now; you get the idea. The ideologies may be similar and at their foundation are built off of the same text, it does not mean they do not behave differently. The Others and the Old Gods could be two totally different opinions of the same 'text.' Admittedly, the Old Gods are much more palatable and human friendly than the Others.

The Others do not want the death of all humans--> 1) Crastor makes sacrifices to the Others and if they wanted him dead they could have long ago done that. 2) The Night's King was decidedly human but was making sacrifices to the Others for power(and love I guess). 3) At White Tree other dark sacrifices were made to the gods (not clear which ones to). Doesn't seem all bad to me.

If you are going to say that the Others were driving the Wildings South and they were fearing for death, yes...partially. It seems to me that they were herding the Wildings South. The Wall is warded against them and how do you get around that? Drive a force that is not warded against to the Wall (my own little idea here admittedly).

Sacrifices to the Others and the Old Gods do not seem all that different in basic nature. Val says the woods hold no shadows for her, perhaps she has enough knowledge of the other (get it, the Other) half of the coin to know what customs to oblige in order to not be killed by the Others. Kind of like knowing the procession for different kind of churches/customs. I'm not going to send a woman into Saudi Arabia wearing a bikini (extreme example but it conveys the point). Perhaps she just knows what to do--it doesn't mean she has adopted it.

I'm thinking a realistic grasp of the situation. If they make a move against Mel essentially they are challenging the legitimacy of Stannis. You do that and Stannis comes down on you (we all know that is something no sane person wants to have happen) and very likely the Night's Watch as well. It is easier to bear an insult for a time than die and not be able to fight another day.

If there are spelling mistakes I apologize. It happens.

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

It's not proof. It's a line of thought using inferences. Different kind of thinking. Something people do to find new answers to different questions. We don't have proof for most things. Hell, we don't have proof that Ned is dead. We don't know it's off (hence crackpot theories). One must take leaps in logic. By leaps I mean calculated leaps, not just randomly jumping off a cliff.

[Snow Dottir]

....You just said the opposite not in the last page of the posting! :bang: Obviously anything substantive is going to be refuted by an, "I don't feel like that is the truth." There is no work to be done here.

HAR!

"Why can't the others have their own sthooper sthpecial God??"

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-roll tootsie-pop?

Adding anything to refute the latest "Gods" statement would be an exercise in futility...

That being said, we've already seen a "cult" of sorts in relation to the others (Craster and dottir wives)

Craster states over and over he is a "Godly" man who worships "The real Gods"

I'm putting my money on him not being the only one. More directly Val.

HAR!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

This time read it.

I had, 3 times. Still lacks several crucial parts.

It's not proof. It's a line of thought using inferences. Different kind of thinking. Something people do to find new answers to different questions.

Ah you see? That is the magic word. You make some assumptions and that is ok, however in order to someone take it seriously you need some evidence. Saying that "blah blah blah" isn't the same with saying "blah because we have seen X there then..." etc. One is just assumptions the other is something that can been taken seriously. I have made some very very clear questions and all I get is yada yada yada yada with no actual meaning and no actual answer.

My main questions are very clear:

If there are gods why there are only two gods and not multiple?

Meaning that if there are Gods why the Others have any connection with the Old Gods and they haven't got a God of their own?

[Scúrdryhtdðm]

So.... the only way to have any resolution here in your mind is to have GRRM confirm it? Fair enough. We shall wait for the next book...

In the mean time. WHERE DID VAL FIND A CHANGE OF CLOTHES?!!!!!!!!! And more importantly, was it White? Or Winter White?! (I lived with women for long enough, no I wouldn't find a difference on my own).