An R+L question that has little to do with J

[hardhome]

Strictly speaking we don't know the full scope of the relationship between R&L in reference to consent, mutual affection, or the like.

What is also unknown is whether they were formally married, I firmly believe anyone who denies the possibility is ignoring the realities within this story.

We know in the wildling tradition they were but if there was a formal ceremony, who performed it?

The only answer I could come up with was Thoros.

Maybe this doesn't interest anybody, maybe it's been discussed in a long forgotten thread but I thought I would ask the question.

[Knight Of Winter]

Why Thoros in particular - is there anything pointing towards him?

If I had to guess, I'd say some random septon who was Rhaegar's confidate. Or maybe there were no septons alt all, only a heart tree and exchanged vows. Either way, I don't think it matters much to the story.

[markg171]

Strictly speaking we don't know the full scope of the relationship between R&L in reference to consent, mutual affection, or the like.

What is also unknown is whether they were formally married, I firmly believe anyone who denies the possibility is ignoring the realities within this story.

We know in the wildling tradition they were but if there was a formal ceremony, who performed it?

The only answer I could come up with was Thoros.

Maybe this doesn't interest anybody, maybe it's been discussed in a long forgotten thread but I thought I would ask the question.

And I firmly believe that anybody who tries to say that they married is ignoring the realities within this story. How did they get married?

The Seven

No random septon is going to allow a known married man, Rhaegar, to marry another women. It goes against the Faith. It is illegal under their religion. They cannot, nor would they if they could, do this marriage. The only person who could perform this marriage is the High Septon. And he lives in King's Landing, so he couldn't possibly have married them.

Not to mention that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage by the Faith for 300 years.

The old gods

Many posters believe that they got married on the Isle of Faces. Yet we know from Bran that people do not go to the Isle of Faces. It's a forbidden place. So Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't go there either. So where's the other place with weirwoods? Towns.

Now what lord, is going to allow the crown prince, who's married to the sister of the ruler of Dorne, to marry a woman in his godswood who's betrothed to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and is the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North? That's guaranteed to cause war as you're immediately pissing off 3 kingdoms. No lord would ever allow that to take place. Pleasing the crown prince means nothing if it plunges the realm into war.

R'hllor

So we're left with the red priests. Before the Rebellion, there was a whooping 1 red priest in the Seven Kingdoms: Thoros of Myr. Who was sent to convert Aerys, and thus lived in King's Landing. Which is not where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. So Thoros did not marry them.

What about Melisandre? Well Melisandre wasn't in Westoros at the time. She doesn't come to Westoros until Stannis already has a wife, which is after the Rebellion. So Melisandre didn't marry them.

So there is no way they married under any of the faiths in Westoros. But let's say that they somehow did. Who gave away the bride? We're given a few options for who can give away a bride: father, lord of the bride, the king, kin.

Now Rickard definitely didn't give away Lyanna, as he was in the North, and then died. So Rickard didn't give her away, nor would he have after he'd already promised her to Robert.

Now after Rickard died, Ned was her lord. Ned was in the Vale, and then the North, so he didn't give Lyanna away as it's geographically impossible. Nor would he have then fought to bring her back, if he's the one who set everything off.

Now the King was Aerys, and he was in King's Landing, so he didn't give away as they weren't there.

So we're left with kin, which is a last ditch resort if none of the above can give away the bride. Well she had a living father when Rhaegar kidnapped her, she had 2 living brothers the whole war, she had a living lord, and the king was alive and nearby. But ignoring that, what kin does she have in the south who could have given her away? The answer is none, so no kin gave her away.

So marriage = impossible. It ignores everything in the books.

[TallTyrion]

And I firmly believe that anybody who tries to say that they married is ignoring the realities within this story. How did they get married?

The Seven

No random septon is going to allow a known married man, Rhaegar, to marry another women. It goes against the Faith. It is illegal under their religion. They cannot, nor would they if they could, do this marriage. The only person who could perform this marriage is the High Septon. And he lives in King's Landing, so he couldn't possibly have married them.

Not to mention that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage by the Faith for 300 years.

I don't agree that it's "impossible." A random Septon isn't necessarily going to deny the request of the incredibly popular crown prince. Tyrion was able to get a drunk septon to perform his wedding despite Tywin obviously taking exception

Also Howland Reed is rumoured to have gone to the Isle of Faces so it's not like no one has ever been there. It also ties in well with the KotLT story.

[hardhome]

@markg171 respectfully, unless they traveled by sea, it is very difficult to reach the Tower of Joy without passing through/by King's Landing, also Thoros may have been at the Harrenhal tourney himself putting him in a place where both Lyanna and Rheagar were without any timeline issues.

As to why I picked Thoros

In Cat of the Canals (I think) we find out that red priests will preform marriages to an already married woman, it would make them the most matriarchal religion in the series if the reverse were not to hold true.

Thoros was on a mission to suck up to the royal family and at that time may still have been working toward it.

Very few persons who have the "official" religious authority to marry others are named characters within the story.

History would dictate that septons would have difficulty marrying an already married man.

[Robb-TheYoungWolf]

And I firmly believe that anybody who tries to say that they married is ignoring the realities within this story. How did they get married?

The Seven

No random septon is going to allow a known married man, Rhaegar, to marry another women. It goes against the Faith. It is illegal under their religion. They cannot, nor would they if they could, do this marriage. The only person who could perform this marriage is the High Septon. And he lives in King's Landing, so he couldn't possibly have married them.

Not to mention that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage by the Faith for 300 years.

I don't know why people find the idea of a corrupt Septon that would be willing to perform the ceremony for the crown prince so crazy. I find it extremely hard to believe every Septon in the faith is that devout. It's like saying there's no way there could be corrupt priests in the Catholic church because that's against their vows. Also, as someone pointed out we already have a drunken septon performing the marriage ceremony for a highborn lord without his fathers approval.

With that being said however, I agree with the theory that they were married before a weirwood tree. It's not impossible to get to the Isle of Faces, just difficult. Addam Velaryon and Howland Reed were both said to have been there. This also means that Bran could see the marriage by looking through the eyes of the tree, thus revealing R+L=J (or at least a significant part of it).

[markg171]

I don't know why people find the idea of a corrupt Septon that would be willing to perform the ceremony for the crown prince so crazy. I find it extremely hard to believe every Septon in the faith is that devout. It's like saying there's no way there could be corrupt priests in the Catholic church because that's against their vows. Also, as someone pointed out we already have a drunken septon performing the marriage ceremony for a highborn lord without his fathers approval.

With that being said however, I agree with the theory that they were married before a weirwood tree. It's not impossible to get to the Isle of Faces, just difficult. Addam Velaryon and Howland Reed were both said to have been there. This also means that Bran could see the marriage by looking through the eyes of the tree, thus revealing R+L=J (or at least a significant part of it).

That doesn't ignore the fact that polygamy is illegal under the Faith. Only the High Septon, who is above the Faith, can perform a polygamous marriage. Some random septon can't without it not being a valid marriage.

[JonSnow4President]

That doesn't ignore the fact that polygamy is illegal under the Faith. Only the High Septon, who is above the Faith, can perform a polygamous marriage. Some random septon can't without it not being a valid marriage.

This sounds exactly like the "Kingsguard should protect the current king over obey the orders of a dead crown prince whose authority stemmed from a dead king" argument where you were so adamant on us citing the rules.

[markg171]

This sounds exactly like the "Kingsguard should protect the current king over obey the orders of a dead crown prince whose authority stemmed from a dead king" argument where you were so adamant on us citing the rules.

What?

[Aeron_Damphair]

And I firmly believe that anybody who tries to say that they married is ignoring the realities within this story. How did they get married?

The Seven

No random septon is going to allow a known married man, Rhaegar, to marry another women. It goes against the Faith. It is illegal under their religion. They cannot, nor would they if they could, do this marriage. The only person who could perform this marriage is the High Septon. And he lives in King's Landing, so he couldn't possibly have married them.

Not to mention that there hasn't been a polygamous marriage by the Faith for 300 years.

The old gods

Many posters believe that they got married on the Isle of Faces. Yet we know from Bran that people do not go to the Isle of Faces. It's a forbidden place. So Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't go there either. So where's the other place with weirwoods? Towns.

Now what lord, is going to allow the crown prince, who's married to the sister of the ruler of Dorne, to marry a woman in his godswood who's betrothed to the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and is the daughter of the Lord Paramount of the North? That's guaranteed to cause war as you're immediately pissing off 3 kingdoms. No lord would ever allow that to take place. Pleasing the crown prince means nothing if it plunges the realm into war.

R'hllor

So we're left with the red priests. Before the Rebellion, there was a whooping 1 red priest in the Seven Kingdoms: Thoros of Myr. Who was sent to convert Aerys, and thus lived in King's Landing. Which is not where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. So Thoros did not marry them.

What about Melisandre? Well Melisandre wasn't in Westoros at the time. She doesn't come to Westoros until Stannis already has a wife, which is after the Rebellion. So Melisandre didn't marry them.

So there is no way they married under any of the faiths in Westoros. But let's say that they somehow did. Who gave away the bride? We're given a few options for who can give away a bride: father, lord of the bride, the king, kin.

Now Rickard definitely didn't give away Lyanna, as he was in the North, and then died. So Rickard didn't give her away, nor would he have after he'd already promised her to Robert.

Now after Rickard died, Ned was her lord. Ned was in the Vale, and then the North, so he didn't give Lyanna away as it's geographically impossible. Nor would he have then fought to bring her back, if he's the one who set everything off.

Now the King was Aerys, and he was in King's Landing, so he didn't give away as they weren't there.

So we're left with kin, which is a last ditch resort if none of the above can give away the bride. Well she had a living father when Rhaegar kidnapped her, she had 2 living brothers the whole war, she had a living lord, and the king was alive and nearby. But ignoring that, what kin does she have in the south who could have given her away? The answer is none, so no kin gave her away.

So marriage = impossible. It ignores everything in the books.

I disagree with this post pretty much in its entirety, especially with respect to the bolded. I don't think we're reading the same story. The evidence that they got married is almost overwhelming. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly undeniable. Pretty much incorrect on all counts.

[markg171]

I disagree with this post pretty much in its entirety, especially with respect to the bolded. I don't think we're reading the same story. The evidence that they got married is almost overwhelming. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly undeniable. Pretty much incorrect on all counts.

So please, tell me how they got married.

[myufa]

I don't think J has to be legitimate. Dragons' blood is still dragons' blood. And it's unrealistic for him to swoop in and press his claim over Westeros. I like the idea that he is still a bastard just a better version.

[TallTyrion]

That doesn't ignore the fact that polygamy is illegal under the Faith. Only the High Septon, who is above the Faith, can perform a polygamous marriage. Some random septon can't without it not being a valid marriage.

Them having a marriage ceremony and other people accepting it as legitimate is not synonymous

[redrose]

I disagree with this post pretty much in its entirety, especially with respect to the bolded. I don't think we're reading the same story. The evidence that they got married is almost overwhelming. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly undeniable. Pretty much incorrect on all counts.

I have seen no text that even remotely States that they got married. The whole notion of them getting married stems from the presence of the 3 kingsguard remaining at the TOJ ie. To protect the king. This is an interpretation of the text that is yet to be proven true or false. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly deniable. at this moment in time.

[redrose]

Them having a marriage ceremony and other people accepting it as legitimate is not synonymous

^^ I agree

[Aeron_Damphair]

I have seen no text that even remotely States that they got married. The whole notion of them getting married stems from the presence of the 3 kingsguard remaining at the TOJ ie. To protect the king. This is an interpretation of the text that is yet to be proven true or false. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly deniable. at this moment in time.

You just completely contradicted yourself. You yourself say that this interpretation is yet to be proven true or false; you go on to say that the evidence that they *could* have gotten married is utterly deniable. I'm guessing this is a semantic issue that you aren't necessarily aware of, but to concede the first and then discount the *possibility* of the second is a contradiction.

Edit: I think you're trying to say that it's still up in the air. "The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly deniable" does not accomplish this.

[Aeron_Damphair]

I have seen no text that even remotely States that they got married. The whole notion of them getting married stems from the presence of the 3 kingsguard remaining at the TOJ ie. To protect the king. This is an interpretation of the text that is yet to be proven true or false. The evidence that they could have gotten married is utterly deniable. at this moment in time.

That's the whole point. It has to be a secret, completely withheld from the reader at the moment. If the text came out and said they got married, it would give away the whole game.

[JonSnow4President]

What?

Look up the word hypocrite. Maybe double standards. You know, that type of thing.

[Aeron_Damphair]

So please, tell me how they got married.

Septon Meribald perhaps? I don't know the manner; one can only guess. In a time of war, prophesy obsessed Rhaegar sees that house Targaryen is in jeopardy. He (correctly) sees the possibility that the male Targaryen line, and by extension the dynasty, is in jeopardy. He knows "the dragon must have three heads." He knows his first wife can't bear him another child. He views the circumstances as extraordinary and he gets Dayne, Whent, and a septon to agree. Or he gets married in front of a heart tree. Polygamy exists in the story. He's naming his children after the most famous polygamous trio in the series. To say that they couldn't have been married is ridiculous. Of course they could have.

Did they? I believe so.

Three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. All remain here. None go to Viserys. If there is no reason for them to be there relating to the succession, their behavior is incredibly strange. I've heard the arguments that they might have just been following Rhaegar's orders. This, in my estimation, is a feeble argument. It is not parsimonious. This isn't a game. This is the survival of the Targ dynasty in the hands of the last professed loyal members of the kingsguard and we're to believe that they choose to guard a mistress and bastard instead of the rightful heir? No.

Perhaps I could allow for the possibility that they weren't married and the kingsguard were simply behaving strangely. Not to allow for the possibility that they were behaving exactly as kingsguard would be expected to behave is daft.

[markg171]

Look up the word hypocrite. Maybe double standards. You know, that type of thing.

No I mean what are you talking about

Septon Meribald perhaps? I don't know the manner; one can only guess. In a time of war, prophesy obsessed Rhaegar sees that house Targaryen is in jeopardy. He (correctly) sees the possibility that the male Targaryen line, and by extension the dynasty, is in jeopardy. He knows "the dragon must have three heads." He knows his first wife can't bear him another child. He views the circumstances as extraordinary and he gets Dayne, Whent, and a septon to agree. Or he gets married in front of a heart tree. Polygamy exists in the story. He's naming his children after the most famous polygamous trio in the series. To say that they couldn't have been married is ridiculous. Of course they could have.

Did they? I believe so.

Three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. All remain here. None go to Viserys. If there is no reason for them to be there relating to the succession, their behavior is incredibly strange. I've heard the arguments that they might have just been following Rhaegar's orders. This, in my estimation, is a feeble argument. It is not parsimonious. This isn't a game. This is the survival of the Targ dynasty in the hands of the last professed loyal members of the kingsguard and we're to believe that they choose to guard a mistress and bastard instead of the rightful heir? No.

Perhaps I could allow for the possibility that they weren't married and the kingsguard were simply behaving strangely. Not to allow for the possibility that they were behaving exactly as kingsguard would be expected to behave is daft.

You're assuming that the KG had any idea what was going on before Ned arrived.