Really looking forward to next season

[protar]

Yes - they do like Tyrion. That's my point. And they've changed him a lot, he's a completely different character. And a boring one imo. Just as they loved Winterfell and changed that - also for the worse.

I'm not saying Sansa should change her entire personality in a year. But in her year out she would be learning about politics from LF and she'd return with more knowledge about that. There doesn't need to be a specific catalyst for that, she's just under LF's tuition. How would that be any worse than her sudden transformation in the show?

And yes - Sansa is supposed to be empowered now. She isn't, but she's supposed to be. I mean for god's sake I quoted Cogman right there: "she's a hardened woman making a choice." to paraphrase. And all the interviews about her prior to S5 were about how empowered she would be this season. I'm not making any assumptions, I'm just being realistic about D+D's talents. Sansa's maleficent outfit was not a misdirection, that was D+D's way of telling us that she is now empowered and so far as they are concerned, she is.

And besides, leaving Sansa out for a whole season is just one possibility. Another would be actually telling her story from AFFC instead of rushing through it in S4. Maybe make Harry Hardyng the central Lord Declarant, introduce Myranda Royce. Or if plot lines must be consolidated, why not send her to Winterfell in a more empowered role? Taking Lady Dustin's role for example? And/or getting involved in the plots of the Northern Lords and undermining the Boltons. There's loads more options than what we got, which was offensive and poorly written.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'm not saying her role in this season was fantastic.. but, and I keep coming back this word 'drama', putting her into that situation rather than having her sitting around learning politics is for dramatic reasons. Its more dramatic for her to be rescued by Theon than for Theon to rescue some random girl. Where is the drama in her sitting around plotting with some northern lords?

It might seem cheap or corny, or a bit low brow. But thats the show. Its central tenant has to been to up the drama as much as possible, because a majority of the viewers will simply not watch a bunch of lords plotting, and most people don't much care about the political comings and goings in westeros, they are in it for the human drama.

I know that hurts, but thats just how it is.

[protar]

I'm not saying her role in this season was fantastic.. but, and I keep coming back this word 'drama', putting her into that situation rather than having her sitting around learning politics is for dramatic reasons. Its more dramatic for her to be rescued by Theon than for Theon to rescue some random girl. Where is the drama in her sitting around plotting with some northern lords?

It might seem cheap or corny, or a bit low brow. But thats the show. Its central tenant has to been to up the drama as much as possible, because a majority of the viewers will simply not watch a bunch of lords plotting, and most people don't much care about the political comings and goings in westeros, they are in it for the human drama.

I know that hurts, but thats just how it is.

Yes and that's what I'm complaining about. The show does not need to be so low brow and focused on shocks and drama in order to be successful. There's a lot of good shows out there that garnered their success from good writing and character development. Once upon a time Game of Thrones ranked among those, and it should still be in those ranks today. But it isn't. D+D have become too concerned with pandering to the lowest common denominator.

The whole point of Theon's arc in ADWD is that Jeyne is a nobody. He saves someone that no one else thought was worth saving. When you, or the show runners talk about how the audience needs a buy in to care about the story in Winterfell, you're only demonstrating that you didn't understand the books.

All this isn't to say that wanting drama is bad. But it must come from character depth and good writing. And personally I think plotting the downfall of the Boltons, with actually a bit of hope in Winterfell, would have been very dramatic. You didn't like Winterfell in ADWD?

This is what I don't get about show apologists - they say that AFFC/ADWD weren't exciting enough and the show had to spice things up. What's not exciting about lost kings and wizard pirates, murder mysteries and secret conspiracies? And what is exciting about Brienne staring out of a window, or Jaime and Bronn's racist trip to Dorne, or ass birthmarks?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I'd argue that show has ALWAYS been lowbrow in comparison to the books. Its also amped up the drama and held back on the internal politics because it has a much different audience to those reading the books. Often thats been far easier to do because the books have been a little more focussed on human drama and were slightly less sprawling. The last two books were much less focussed and much harder to adapt.

I do understand the books, but I also understand that for a viewer to care about Jeyne then you need to introduce her and build her character from scratch so that when theon rescues her, or risks everything to do so , it means something. Thats a lot of time to waste. With Sansa you already have that character. PLUS she has history with Theon. I'm not sure how you don't understand that line of reasoning.

Actually no I didn't much like the Winterfell stuff in ADWD. It was fine but certainly not that memorable. I almost entirely forgot about Ninja Mance Rayder and the murders till I reread it. Even now I find that portion of the book hard to get my head around and it certainly lacks dramatic focus.

What you don't see is that what people want is human drama, they want to know what happens to characters they care about, the plot has to focus on those characters.

[protar]

I'd argue that show has ALWAYS been lowbrow in comparison to the books. Its also amped up the drama and held back on the internal politics because it has a much different audience to those reading the books. Often thats been far easier to do because the books have been a little more focussed on human drama and were slightly less sprawling. The last two books were much less focussed and much harder to adapt.

I do understand the books, but I also understand that for a viewer to care about Jeyne then you need to introduce her and build her character from scratch so that when theon rescues her, or risks everything to do so , it means something. Thats a lot of time to waste. With Sansa you already have that character. PLUS she has history with Theon. I'm not sure how you don't understand that line of reasoning.

Actually no I didn't much like the Winterfell stuff in ADWD. It was fine but certainly not that memorable. I almost entirely forgot about Ninja Mance Rayder and the murders till I reread it. Even now I find that portion of the book hard to get my head around and it certainly lacks dramatic focus.

What you don't see is that what people want is human drama, they want to know what happens to characters they care about, the plot has to focus on those characters.

Well sure, there's always going to be some loss of depths from book to screen. But GoT was once upon a time good, smart television. And there are plenty of other shows which are very clever and have depth.

As for introducing Jeyne - I seem to recall Theon spent two seasons locked up in the Dreadfort doing nothing. Why not introduce her as a fellow prisoner of Theon? That way by the time Season 5 comes around we'll have known Jeyne for two years. This is called planning and making use of the time you have. Something D+D are notoriously bad at.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Now you are just making stuff up to NOT have Sansa in Winterfell. How is that even better?

[protar]

Now you are just making stuff up to NOT have Sansa in Winterfell. How is that even better?

Because...it actually allows them to stick to the books more in the long run? And not be grossly offensive? If they had to create a plot line for Theon in S3 and 4 due to actor contracts, why not actually use that plot line to set up characters and plot points that they can use in the future?

The default should not be Sansa going to Winterfell, introducing Jeyne should have been the default plan. If for some reason that was completely impossible, then maybe start to consider other options. And even then Sansa marrying Ramsay would be at the bottom of the list. But it wasn't impossible. They should have introduced Jeyne.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I still disagree. Jeyne is an utterly minor if not totally irrelevent character who has almost no personality in the books. Your solutions all involve Sansa sitting out a season or doing borderline nothing. None of those are better solutions than the ones in the show.

Bringing Sansa to Winterfell was a very good move in my book (still not been established this wont happen in the books anyway) and whilst some might not like the rape, it added pace to a storyline that was cripplied by undramatic events in the books anyway.

[protar]

I still disagree. Jeyne is an utterly minor if not totally irrelevent character who has almost no personality in the books. Your solutions all involve Sansa sitting out a season or doing borderline nothing. None of those are better solutions than the ones in the show.

Bringing Sansa to Winterfell was a very good move in my book (still not been established this wont happen in the books anyway) and whilst some might not like the rape, it added pace to a storyline that was cripplied by undramatic events in the books anyway.

I'm sorry but...just because you missed the entire point of Jeyne's character doesn't mean it was right for the show to. Just because you found the Vale storyline boring, doesn't mean it was right to cut it entirely. Just because you didn't like Winterfell in ADWD doesn't mean everyone else did and in fact most people consider it to be some of the best stuff Martin has ever done. Almost anything would be better than what the show gave us. Even supposing my suggestions would result in boring television, that would still be better than the show which was boring, poorly written and incredibly offensive.

And I'm really not sure how her being there added to the pace at all. This season was the slowest there's ever been. I mean how can you say that Winterfell had any pace at all this season? The only episodes where anything of note happened in that plot line where episode 6 and 10. Two episodes out of ten! We got two episodes with any plot development, and that's even putting aside the kind of plot development it was. That's appalling.

Are you really telling me with a straight face that the show's Winterfell plot line was better than the books?

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Responding to current conversation (though I will say-on topic- that I'm allowing myself to get excited about the potential in some of the casting for next season)

re Sansa

I could have gotten why Sansa was there instead of Jeyne and instead of staying in the Vale (audience connection and story streamlining) if they'd allowed her story to make sense.

Littlefinger told her to get vengeance and taught her his "craft" before leaving her to marry the only psycho in Westeros he'd never heard about.

But instead of having Northern allies there to witness the wedding and solidify the Bolton's Warden status as they were checking on what they might believe is the last living Stark and heir to King in the North Robb, they skipped that.

And instead of allowing Sansa time to play mind games on Walda, Roose, Ramsay etc--they locked her in a room all day and had her raped repeatedly.

Locking her in the room made her ineffectual and stalled the story in Winterfell. She was a victim, again, despite her outfit change, and had to be saved by a fool, again, despite the claims that she would be empowered by returning to Winterfell.

So I completely understood the change initially, but all the reasons for her being there were taken away which, I believe, made what happened to her more upsetting to a lot of people.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I agree that the execution of that plot wasn't very good, and certainly one of the weakest elements of this season. However, taking Sansa their was the correct choice in my opinion. Its only adding to the drama levels of what is a pretty dull plot. What did they really leave out of the Winterfell plot that was so amazing? Ninja Mance?? Overly complicated plotting to do with Stannis and northerners?

[protar]

I mean I get why they made the change. They wanted to consolidate plot points, and they wanted a "buy-in" for the audience instead of Jeyne. But the latter is completely misunderstanding the story and the former was just written very poorly and offensively. And then there's the fact that out of all the amazing writing in Winterfell in ADWD, the only scenes they chose to adapt was the rape and jumping off the walls. That says a lot about the kind of vision D+D have for the show. And it aint pretty.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

I do wonder, how dangerous is the position of Melisandre, Davos, and Danaerys?

The Night's watch just murdered Jon Snow. They have nothing against Melisandre or Davos, yet they may not appreciate their presence. If GIlly was threatened by the Night's Watch members, you'd think Mel might be as well, although maybe their fear of her "magic powers" would keep them at bay.

Is Davos in danger? He is pretty likable, and likely would help out the Night's Watch if they asked him to. I suspect he is in the least danger of all.

Finally, what about Danerys? She is now captured by the Dothraki, who are probably unaware of her stint as Khaleesi, and maybe wouldn't care if they knew. I really hope this isn't the case, but I get the sense she may be assaulted by one or more of the Dothraki, simply because D +D would think it would be so "shocking", and Dany hasn't yet had any real misfortune happen to her (since season 1)

[protar]

I agree that the execution of that plot wasn't very good, and certainly one of the weakest elements of this season. However, taking Sansa their was the correct choice in my opinion. Its only adding to the drama levels of what is a pretty dull plot. What did they really leave out of the Winterfell plot that was so amazing? Ninja Mance?? Overly complicated plotting to do with Stannis and northerners?

Well firstly yes, they left out Mance. But also - Frey Pies, Manderly, Lady Dustin, murder mysteries, Theon's story, Bran speaking through the weirwood, the promise of an actual even battle between Stannis and Roose, narrative tension, a sense of hope for the North. Pretty much everything to be honest.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Rather, I'm dreading they do with the Ironborns and the Riverlands what they did with Dorne and Winterfell.

Wait till they sex up Euron.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Well firstly yes, they left out Mance. But also - Frey Pies, Manderly, Lady Dustin, murder mysteries, Theon's story, Bran speaking through the weirwood, the promise of an actual even battle between Stannis and Roose, narrative tension, a sense of hope for the North. Pretty much everything to be honest.

Frey Pies is possibly a fun scene, but since the Freys barely feature it doesn't make sense and again all those things do it just expand out the story and make it even more meandering. In a book its fine (though I wasn't massively enamoured with those parts on first read) but in a series its just frustrating to watch.

[protar]

Frey Pies is possibly a fun scene, but since the Freys barely feature it doesn't make sense and again all those things do it just expand out the story and make it even more meandering. In a book its fine (though I wasn't massively enamoured with those parts on first read) but in a series its just frustrating to watch.

The Frey are responsible for one of the biggest shocks in the series. Shouldn't they feature prominently?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I do wonder, how dangerous is the position of Melisandre, Davos, and Danaerys?

The Night's watch just murdered Jon Snow. They have nothing against Melisandre or Davos, yet they may not appreciate their presence. If GIlly was threatened by the Night's Watch members, you'd think Mel might be as well, although maybe their fear of her "magic powers" would keep them at bay.

Is Davos in danger? He is pretty likable, and likely would help out the Night's Watch if they asked him to. I suspect he is in the least danger of all.

Finally, what about Danerys? She is now captured by the Dothraki, who are probably unaware of her stint as Khaleesi, and maybe wouldn't care if they knew. I really hope this isn't the case, but I get the sense she may be assaulted by one or more of the Dothraki, simply because D +D would think it would be so "shocking", and Dany hasn't yet had any real misfortune happen to her (since season 1)

Its a good question.

I have a feeling that the nightwatch will fall into chaos and possibly there will be a fight between them and the wildlings. Mel and Davos might run off, and I'm also wondering if the White Walkers won't simply get past the wall at some point, causing the rest of Westeros to suddenly pay attention.

I have a feeling Dany might need rescuing my Daario.. though that would be a pretty uninteresting storyline.. her storyline has to get some momentum pretty darn quickly in my opinion, she feels like shes back at square one.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

The Frey are responsible for one of the biggest shocks in the series. Shouldn't they feature prominently?

The blame was put more on Roose and Tywin in the series. The Freys don't seem to be feature outside of the Twins.

[protar]

The blame was put more on Roose and Tywin in the series. The Freys don't seem to be feature outside of the Twins.

Yes and...why? The vengeance against the Freys is a huge part of the books (even though imo the individual Freys could be better developed). Why cut that? Why cut so much of Winterfell except for the rape scene?

ETA: And for that matter, why is the RW barely mentioned after S3? Isn't that supposed to be super important?