Rhaegar, we hardly know ye? (Lyanna, Elia, Aegon, PtwP)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I keep seeing this interpretation of Rhaegar as, essentially, an unstable prophecy goon who planned the whole thing with Lyanna to get himself an ice-fire prince. I believe it's a reaction to the image of Rhaegar and Lyanna's "doomed love". It feels like it's challenging a trope, and thus must be correct.

 

Along this line (but a bit less anti-Rhaegar), I just listened to the latest History of Westeros podcast episode on Summerhall, and Ashaya and Aziz say there's confusion here:

 

(1) Rhaegar names Lyanna his QoLaB at Harrenhal;

 

(2) but then (shortly after this) he goes back to Elia in KL and tells her that the newborn Aegon is the PtwP.

 

Is he lying to Elia? Is he tricking the reader?

 

Confusion?

 

I think Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna and then his words about baby Aegon are only confusing if you're trapped in the "prophecy-crazy Rhaegar" narrative.

 

But this narrative is a fan invention. We have witnesses talking about (1) his withdrawn personality, and (2) his keen interest in prophecies. And we know he thought he was the PtwP, and then that Aegon was.

 

Without knowing precisely what the prophecy says, and without having any grasp of how important the prophecy might be, we can't conclude Rhaegar acted out of order or obsessively.

 

Extremely uncertain sources

 

The assumption that we "understand" Rhaegar enough to conclude he was "obsessed" (rather than just keenly focused on a serious issue), based on what is said about him by others, and the one scene in the House of the Undying, is all a bit shallow.

 

Would we "understand" Jaime based on Catelyn's, Cersei's or Bran's interpretations of him - even if we mixed them all up?

 

Specifically for Rheagar:

 

• it's said by all that Rhaegar was reserved and only "shared" with a very select few. We don't hear from those.
• every secondhand source for Rhaegar is at best biased (the man made his mark on a lot of people's lives, good or bad), and at worst hostile. Consider Robert's "interpretation": do we take it at face value? Is it even helpful at all?
• the most important source for Rhaegar's prophecy views is Master Aemon: with whom he only corresponded, and who was on the other side of the realm.

No conclusions should be drawn from the fact that there is "no evidence he wasn't prophecy crazy", because there's really very little evidence of anything about him.

 

Rhaegar's information: better than ours

 

Anyone jumping on the "prophecy-crazy Rhaegar" bandwagon forgets that we don't know what the prophecy says. We believe we have the gist of it, but we also know that prophecies are tricky.

 

Yet, not even knowing the words, we are reverse-engineering Rhaegar's motivations and declaring them justified or not, based on the fact that this actions seem "weird". 

 

Weird? It's essentially certain that he simply knew more than we do:

 

(1) he'd read the prophecy 

(2) he had access to family books

(3) he had access to Maester Aemon's knowledge

(4) during his sojourns to Summerhall, he may have crossed paths with the Ghost of High Heart as well - this is another theory though.

 

I would conclude that Rhaegar may have been one of the best informed people on this. Keep that in mind: his actions may seem weird because we are that uninformed.

 

Crowning Lyanna, but naming Aegon his PtwP: NBD

 

That he crowned Lyanna but then still thought Aegon was his PtwP, to me at least is not "confusing" at all. It points to the fact that his meeting with Lyanna at Harrenhal was indeed chance, and not motivated by him looking for an ice-blooded prophecy "brood mare" (which is one of the gists of the "Crazy Rhaegar" line of thinking).

 

If it's evidence of anything, it's that he was not purely motivated by an irrational obsession with a prophesized prince.

 

In fact, again, there is zero evidence he had any design on Lyanna whatsoever. On the other hand, there is clear evidence Lyanna did something brave and wonderful (and unexpected) by standing up for Howland Reed, and even jousting as a mystery night. 

 

Could Rhaegar's actions at Harrenhal be explained as, plain and simply, just  admiration for a remarkable young woman (that in their time together later one grew into love)?

 

This only sounds "lame" if you don't consider the tragedy of everything that happened after (and the unexpected, unplanned Jon - the real PtwP), in the context of love, rather than blind prophecy, as the thing that leads them to their doom.

 

Who was Rhaegar's Prince that was Promised?

 

For all we know, Rhaegar went to his death believing Aegon was the PtwP - again, there's no evidence he ever changed his mind. There's nothing at all to suggest he believed Lyanna had anything to do with this prophecy at the time he met her at Harrenhal, and indeed at the time he speaks to Elia about Aegon.

 

He may have changed his mind once he ran off with Lyanna and she became pregnant.

 

But again, we don't know the prophecy - remember that - so why conclude that he was flighty or unstable, when he may be acting on the best possible interpretation of a very loose (but incredibly important) prophecy?

 

Rhaegar and Lyanna

 

I'm not sure on what basis exactly his dalliance with Lyanna is meant to be part of his long-running prophecy plot. It seems like a massive assumption, based on another big assumption (that he was just prophecy-crazy) - itself based on an argument about an absence of evidence that he was not prophecy-crazy.

 

This is a high standard to set in GRRM's books. Especially:

- For a character whose story is being pieced together years after the fact

- From sources that are at best biased, at worst hostile, and rarely give any indication that they truly knew or understood Rhaegar?

- In fact, the opposite: we have people who are the sources of our information about him expressly saying that Rhaegar was known only to a very few.

 

To me, this telegraphs that whatever conclusion you're drawing, be careful about it. And that any confusion that arises might be a good hint that you've got your base assumptions wrong.

[Lady Sharya]

Not all of us think Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy. There isn't any evidence for it exept a few mentions, so I don't think he was.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Don't get me wrong, I think he saw himself as having a "mission" based on the prophecy. But I wouldn't conclude from this alone that his focus was misplaced.

Especially as there are clear hints we WAS also aiming to get Aerys in check - so he was not politically utterly uninvolved.

His entanglement with Lyanna makes sense as him falling out of his prophecy focus - which in the end cost him everything, including the son he thought was the PtwP (Aegon).

But it also gave him a child with Lyanna, in the end.

Love is the key here, I would say: It was Rhaegar's doom, but also a key factor in pushing the prophecy forward, as it turned out.

[grinny]

I know nobody wants to hear it, but if we are ready to question all assumes about Rheagar could we please at least put a question mark behind the love story between Lyanna and Rheagar?
We don't have prove for that either.
I mean you compliment her for being brave and wonderful and in the next moment to say that she was a coward not to stand up to her mistakes agree her father and brother are killed and her other brother had to go to war to protect himself and most likely their youngest brother from death, while he was under the stressful impression that she was taken by force and in the hands of a rapist...

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I know nobody wants to hear it, but if we are ready to question all assumes about Rheagar could we please at least put a question mark behind the love story between Lyanna and Rheagar?
We don't have prove for that either.
I mean you compliment her for being brave and wonderful and in the next moment to say that she was a coward not to stand up to her mistakes agree her father and brother are killed and her other brother had to go to war to protect himself and most likely their youngest brother from death, while he was under the stressful impression that she was taken by force and in the hands of a rapist...

 

Huge question mark stands over how Lyanna and Rhaegar "eloped". We're first told he abducted her, but then as things progress, we start thinking that, no, she very likely ran away with him.

 

But in true GRRM style, he blinds you to the deeper secret by allowing you feel like you've cracked the case. Lyanna did willingly go, but there were extenuating circumstances - Aerys has discovered she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and had sent someone to arrest her. Rhaegar found out, and either rescued her, or got her to run before they caught her.

 

Aerys had Varys on his side, and Lyanna left a trail leading straight to her. A smallish person who was a great horseman, in their guise as mystery knight publicly demanded that three specific squires be taught honour. 5 minutes of asking around about whether anything particularly interesting happened to these 3 squires would reveal that, yes, "The wolf-girl beat them up!". The wolf-girl who's slight of build, an expert horsewoman, and prays to carved weirwood trees (like the one on the mystery knight's shield).

 

Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because he did in fact find out that she was the mystery knight (this is why he crowned her) - but he protected her from crazy Aerys. This involved not telling him it was Lyanna, and subsequently protecting Lyanna from Aerys, once Varys told him.

 

So it's not like Lyanna went "fuck everyone, let's bang", it was a life-or-wildfire situation for her.

 

As for what happens next and Lyanna's responsibility for Brandon and Rickard's deaths, consider this:

 

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna are in hiding. 
2. It's enough for a single message to get lost before the Starks act on an incorrect (but obvious) assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped.
3. But in fact, we are told Brandon acted immediately, by going to KL: probably before Lyanna could notify anyone. 
4. Then the big thing happens. When Brandon threatens Rhaegar, that gives Aerys the pretext he needed to start arresting the Starks.
5. "Southron ambitions" are critical here. The Stark/Baratheon/Arryn/Tully alliance through marriages and fosterings (which Barbray Dustin hints at in ADWD) was spun by Varys into an anti-Targaryen conspiracy.

The point is that, from the moment Brandon is arrested for threatening Rhaegar, Lyanna (as a pretext for smashing the Starks) is irrelevant. Aerys has the heir to Winterfell accused of high treason, which brings his father in.

 

So Lyanna's actions were not as pivotal as it seems. Aerys would have used her to get her father to KL, just like he used Brandon (and he'd have killed them all). 

 

And if she got pregnant before news of Rickard and Brandon's death reached them, it would have been kept from her - you probably don't tell your pregnant girlfriend that your dad killed her dad and her brother, ostensibly because they thought you kidnapped her. Which, ultimately, means she may not have known until the very end.

[grinny]

Huge question mark stands over how Lyanna and Rhaegar "eloped". We're first told he abducted her, but then as things progress, we start thinking that, no, she very likely ran away with him.
 
But in true GRRM style, he blinds you to the deeper secret by allowing you feel like you've cracked the case. Lyanna did willingly go, but there were extenuating circumstances - Aerys has discovered she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and had sent someone to arrest her. Rhaegar found out, and either rescued her, or got her to run before they caught her.
 
Aerys had Varys on his side, and Lyanna left a trail leading straight to her. A smallish person who was a great horseman, in their guise as mystery knight publicly demanded that three specific squires be taught honour. 5 minutes of asking around about whether anything particularly interesting happened to these 3 squires would reveal that, yes, "The wolf-girl beat them up!". The wolf-girl who's slight of build, an expert horsewoman, and prays to carved weirwood trees (like the one on the mystery knight's shield).
 
Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because he did in fact find out that she was the mystery knight (this is why he crowned her) - but he protected her from crazy Aerys. This involved not telling him it was Lyanna, and subsequently protecting Lyanna from Aerys, once Varys told him.
 
So it's not like Lyanna went "fuck everyone, let's bang", it was a life-or-wildfire situation for her.
 
As for what happens next and Lyanna's responsibility for Brandon and Rickard's deaths, consider this:
 

• Rhaegar and Lyanna are in hiding. 
• It's enough for a single message to get lost before the Starks act on an incorrect (but obvious) assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped.
• But in fact, we are told Brandon acted immediately, by going to KL: probably before Lyanna could notify anyone. 
• Then the big thing happens. When Brandon threatens Rhaegar, that gives Aerys the pretext he needed to start arresting the Starks.
• "Southron ambitions" are critical here. The Stark/Baratheon/Arryn/Tully alliance through marriages and fosterings (which Barbray Dustin hints at in ADWD) was spun by Varys into an anti-Targaryen conspiracy.

The point is that, from the moment Brandon is arrested for threatening Rhaegar, Lyanna (as a pretext for smashing the Starks) is irrelevant. Aerys has the heir to Winterfell accused of high treason, which brings his father in.
 
So Lyanna's actions were not as pivotal as it seems. Aerys would have used her to get her father to KL, just like he used Brandon (and he'd have killed them all). 
 
And if she got pregnant before news of Rickard and Brandon's death reached them, it would have been kept from her - you probably don't tell your pregnant girlfriend that your dad killed her dad and her brother, ostensibly because they thought you kidnapped her. Which, ultimately, means she may not have known until the very end.

Considered that Jon is younger than Robb, she must have fall pregnant after their death and enough time for Jon to call his banners and for Ned to marry Cat.
And not telling that members of your family died makes you an a**hole and not though a good love story.
And still no contact to Ned, to tell I'm fine. Don't worry about me, just stay alive.

And you stat a theory here where you assumed some ideas as facts. In the end we don't even know for sure that Lyanna was the kotlt. So in the end don't stat that our that there was any love involved as facts. And if you have a treat where you question the common interpretation of Rheagar, it should be open to question it completely. That's all I'm saying

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Jon is older than Robb, that's one of the things that feeds Catelyn's paranoia.

Everything is open to question, with arguments and counter arguments. Some things I take for granted: Jon is their son, for example. There's a strain of theories that argues that's not the case - I've read the arguments, and I disagree. But still, R+L=J is just a theory, which doesn't prevent it being useful in discussions.

But it doesn't help to isolate one strand of the story (why didn't Lyanna let them know what was happening), when it has to in the end work together with everything else.

And do we know, for a fact, that Lyanna never wrote Ned and Benjen to say that she's fine? Ned never thinks about it, but the point is: what difference would it have made? Lyanna is a daughter of a great lord, and eloping willingly is only slightly better than being kidnapped. From the point of view of the family's offended honour, Rhaegar is a villain either way, and justice is needed. Robert could never be told Lyanna ran off willingly either. So, again: we don't know if she did sent a letter, and if she did, what could she have said to stop the chain of events?

Hmm, and also, I don't know if telling your pregnant girlfriend her family is dead is a sensible thing to do, in the setting. I don't think it makes you an asshole to decide not to risk triggering a miscarriage and her death. I don't think that's a crazy position to take.

[Mithras]

People obsessed by a prophecy make actions towards fulfilling it or preventing it depending on the situation. But usually their interpretations are wrong and their actions lead to their doom. In the process, they end up fulfilling the prophecy inadvertently.

 

With the available information at hand, Rhaegar fits this profile.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Does that not go straight to what his involvement with Lyanna was? If Jon is the fulfilment of the prophecy, then almost by definition Rhaegar couldn't have had any prophecy-related designs for Lyanna, right?

[arwyn-t]

I agree with the OP. Very well said. :)

 

We know too few things to make big assumptions. And the things we do know are not all reliable. 

 

Robert's Rebellion is a very complex issue, filled with bias and half told truths and lies. Only the next books will show what really happened. 

[grinny]

Jon is older than Robb, that's one of the things that feeds Catelyn's paranoia.
Everything is open to question, with arguments and counter arguments. Some things I take for granted: Jon is their son, for example. There's a strain of theories that argues that's not the case - I've read the arguments, and I disagree. But still, R+L=J is just a theory, which doesn't prevent it being useful in discussions.
But it doesn't help to isolate one strand of the story (why didn't Lyanna let them know what was happening), when it has to in the end work together with everything else.
And do we know, for a fact, that Lyanna never wrote Ned and Benjen to say that she's fine? Ned never thinks about it, but the point is: what difference would it have made? Lyanna is a daughter of a great lord, and eloping willingly is only slightly better than being kidnapped. From the point of view of the family's offended honour, Rhaegar is a villain either way, and justice is needed. Robert could never be told Lyanna ran off willingly either. So, again: we don't know if she did sent a letter, and if she did, what could she have said to stop the chain of events?
Hmm, and also, I don't know if telling your pregnant girlfriend her family is dead is a sensible thing to do, in the setting. I don't think it makes you an asshole to decide not to risk triggering a miscarriage and her death. I don't think that's a crazy position to take.

I know the timeline is a mess, but I'm pretty sure Robb was born before the war ends, and considered that Lyanna most likely in this case died from childbirth, marks Jon's birth after the war was won.
And it's not that easy to trigger a miscarriage, so that just a lame excuse. And yes it's not a love story to keep this from her, when you literally get an army to go out and kill her second brother...

[purple-eyes]

I took this quite simply and straightforwardly.
Rhaegar is just one of many cases who found his true love in another young woman so he abandoned his loveless political marriage and family out of passion.
Politics and/or prophecy are just some sort of excuses he gave himself.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I took this quite simply and straightforwardly.
Rhaegar is just one of many cases who found his true love in another young woman so he abandoned his loveless political marriage and family out of passion.
Politics and/or prophecy are just some sort of excuses he gave himself.

We don't know much about Elia's views, but she is Dornish. It's not out of the realm of the believable that she would accept Rhaegar taking a paramour (as she might think of it). She had the example of her uncle Lewyn right there in KL, and he was a worthy enough man to become a Kingsguard (which meant something back then), but still had a paramour - the Dornish do see marriage arrangements profoundly differently.

I'm not saying Elia would have been like "Oh we'll be just like sisters!" about it, but I'm just not sure if she would have been (or seen herself) "abandoned", if Rhaegar had won at the Trident.

Rhaegar was at the Red Keep after being MIA with Lyanna, and Jaime's recollections don't indicate that Rhaegar would have cast Elia aside - which isn't particularly great confirmation at all, but you would think Jaime would have thought back to it, if Elia's position vis-a-vis Lyanna had ever really been in question. It would have been a dark mark against Rhaegar in young, honourable Jaime's mind.

And we don't know what Elia knew of the arrangement. On the other hand, she definitely knew that she couldn't have any more children; for a queen, this is pretty threatening in itself. She only had two kids, both of whom were still very young - with the child death rates (especially with Targs. see, Rhaegar's parents), nothing was secure about the succession, and thus about Elia's position as Rhaegar's wife - Lyanna or no Lyanna. Perhaps a paramour might be seen as a decent compromise, at least securing Elia's position as the official wife and queen, so long as her children live.

And did Elia even love Rhaegar? We have a repeating pattern of marriages that are compromises (even Ned and Cat), and given that Rhaegar was so irresistible to women, what irony if the woman he married was indifferent to him. If this is the case, would she have welcomed a paramour for Rhaegar, so she can tap out?

There's still a lot of fog here, I'm not sure there's enough to say how exactly Elia felt about this.

[purple-eyes]

We don't know much about Elia's views, but she is Dornish. It's not out of the realm of the believable that she would accept Rhaegar taking a paramour (as she might think of it). She had the example of her uncle Lewyn right there in KL, and he was a worthy enough man to become a Kingsguard (which meant something back then), but still had a paramour - the Dornish do see marriage arrangements profoundly differently.
I'm not saying Elia would have been like "Oh we'll be just like sisters!" about it, but I'm just not sure if she would have been (or seen herself) "abandoned", if Rhaegar had won at the Trident.
Rhaegar was at the Red Keep after being MIA with Lyanna, and Jaime's recollections don't indicate that Rhaegar would have cast Elia aside - which isn't particularly great confirmation at all, but you would think Jaime would have thought back to it, if Elia's position vis-a-vis Lyanna had ever really been in question. It would have been a dark mark against Rhaegar in young, honourable Jaime's mind.
And we don't know what Elia knew of the arrangement. On the other hand, she definitely knew that she couldn't have any more children; for a queen, this is pretty threatening in itself. She only had two kids, both of whom were still very young - with the child death rates (especially with Targs. see, Rhaegar's parents), nothing was secure about the succession, and thus about Elia's position as Rhaegar's wife - Lyanna or no Lyanna. Perhaps a paramour might be seen as a decent compromise, at least securing Elia's position as the official wife and queen, so long as her children live.
And did Elia even love Rhaegar? We have a repeating pattern of marriages that are compromises (even Ned and Cat), and given that Rhaegar was so irresistible to women, what irony if the woman he married was indifferent to him. If this is the case, would she have welcomed a paramour for Rhaegar, so she can tap out?
There's still a lot of fog here, I'm not sure there's enough to say how exactly Elia felt about this.

I am confused that why you talked so much about Elia in response to my post.
I did not mention or investigate Elia's feeling. I only said about rhaegar.
Rhaegar was in love so he did what he did.
It does not matter if Elia approved him or loved him or understood him or not.
He left his family and duties as crown prince for quite a few months to stay with Lyanna.
He Only came back when he was finally found and summoned back to his duties.
This does seem like " abandon" .

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Yep, agreed that him being MIA while the rebellion is brewing is not defensible, especially in the circumstances.

Sorry, I was focusing on a different interpretation of "abandoned".

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The big issue is not that Rhaegar is prophecy-crazy, but that he is plain crazy, based on his actions.

 

The ordinary counterargument is "but prophecy!!11". Which leads to prophecy-crazy.

 

Jon is older than Robb, that's one of the things that feeds Catelyn's paranoia.

Nope. They are close enough to each other that Cat is unsure, but at least officially Jon is younger.

 

Anyway, even being a month or two older isn't enough, the Starks were dead for half a year before Ned and Cat married.

 

We don't know much about Elia's views, but she is Dornish. It's not out of the realm of the believable that she would accept Rhaegar taking a paramour (as she might think of it). She had the example of her uncle Lewyn right there in KL, and he was a worthy enough man to become a Kingsguard (which meant something back then), but still had a paramour - the Dornish do see marriage arrangements profoundly differently.

There is "paramour" and there is "wife". The latter is a deadly threat. And a Stark won't be satisfied with being a paramour. Even if Lyanna was, her House wouldn't be, and they head the most powerful alliance ever existing in Westeros.

 

Which Elia would be fully aware of.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

The big issue is not that Rhaegar is prophecy-crazy, but that he is plain crazy, based on his actions.
 
The ordinary counterargument is "but prophecy!!11". Which leads to prophecy-crazy.
 
Nope. They are close enough to each other that Cat is unsure, but at least officially Jon is younger.
 
Anyway, even being a month or two older isn't enough, the Starks were dead for half a year before Ned and Cat married.
 
There is "paramour" and there is "wife". The latter is a deadly threat. And a Stark won't be satisfied with being a paramour. Even if Lyanna was, her House wouldn't be, and they head the most powerful alliance ever existing in Westeros.
 
Which Elia would be fully aware of.

Granted.

But, if any wife would accept a second wife (on the basis of a clear succession primacy for her kids, of course), it would probably be a Dornish one.

You untangle one knot, but there's still so many political possibilities to untangle, I love it...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But, if any wife would accept a second wife (on the basis of a clear succession primacy for her kids, of course), it would probably be a Dornish one.

This is not something that applies to Elia/Lyanna.

 

Elia/Maege Mormont maybe. But definitely not Stark, the centerpiece of an alliance consisting of half the continent against the weakest kingdom of all. No way in hell can this qualifier be achieved.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I think Rhaegar certainly was trying to fulfill a prophecy, but obviously that is easier said than done. Still, he may have succeeded if Jon is his son and becomes TPTWP. Also, from the few accounts of people that were somewhat close to him, he was one of the best men alive. Barristan, Jaime and JonCon all admired him. That doesn't sound like some "goon" that is obsessed with prophecy and willing to plunge the realm into war for no real reason. I think by the end of the story, Rhaegar will be seen in a very positive light.

[purple-eyes]

Granted.

But, if any wife would accept a second wife (on the basis of a clear succession primacy for her kids, of course), it would probably be a Dornish one.

You untangle one knot, but there's still so many political possibilities to untangle, I love it...

 

For seven's sake, you are just kidding, right?

Who can guarantee Rhaegar would not change his mind some day to name Jon as his heir even he promised so before?

Do you think Dorne or Elia would trust him for this?

Name one Dornish wife accept a second wife in the history, please. 

In fact, only Visenya and rhaenys accepted a second wife, this is not because they are dornish wives, they are full-blood sisters. 

Maegor's six wives did not count, they were under the cruelty and not in a position to accept or not.