Undeserved Praise

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

-Dany

-Doran Martell

-Arianne Martell's nipples

[Sullen]

-Dany

-Doran Martell

-Arianne Martell's nipples

You take that back.

Those nipples are magnificent, as big and round as plates.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

 

A trap? No, just pointing out that someone truly dutiful, like Davos, would have warned his King/brother.

I imagine Kevan would have warned Tywin in a similar situation as well, Jon would have warned Robb, Cat would have warned Lysa, Oberyn would have warned Doran, Victarion would have warned Balon, even the Blackfish who does not get along with Hoster would have most likely warned his brother.

I actually can not think of many characters who would have definitely not warned their brother in the same situation.

He told Jon Arryn and attempted to get his ducks in a row first to preempt the inevitable counterargument of him doing it for the inheritance. Jon Arryn should have warned Robert first and foremost. Stannis initiating it was likely somewhat counter-productive. Being dutiful doesn't mean being stupid. He was just being somewhat pragmatic as far as fulfilling his duties in that instance.

[Sullen]

He was just being somewhat pragmatic as far as fulfilling his duties in that instance.

IE: I won't do my duty if it can turn against me.

That's a very weak counterargument in favour of Stannis as far as dutifulness goes. Hell, that argument excuses all deserters fleeing before a battle if they think it's pointless.

Hell, it excuses Alester Florent trying to cut a deal with the Crown, he was simply "being pragmatic as far as fulfilling his duties go."

 

He told Jon Arryn and attempted to get his ducks in a row first to preempt the inevitable counterargument of him doing it for the inheritance. 

That was before Robert named Ned Hand of the King, which left Stannis considerably bitter.

[7-KG]

I did and I have.  Here's my response.

Overrated Characters who receive undeserved praise?  Let's get on with it. 

1. Ser Arthur Dayne - for the points already mentioned by other fans, for getting beat by a tiny man who could not even fight off three little squires.
2. Jon snow - moody bastard with little self-discipline, wouldn't get elected Treasurer of the Chamber Pot Attendants' association without someone like Samwell.
3. Varys - he killed Pycelle, and what else? 
4. Mellissandre - picked the wrong AA the first time, picked the wrong AA the second time, maybe third's the charm. 

Thank You.

Read them again, this time pay more attention. Thank you.

Yeah, and it still doesn't fit, mate.

Brandon is physically restrained (and in danger) and still tried to help Rickard, to the point where he strangles himself to death. He didn't fail to do his duty because he was scared, he failed to do his duty because he was being physically restrained.

Hmmm...right, right, i was wrong. Happy? You won.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He told Jon Arryn and attempted to get his ducks in a row first to preempt the inevitable counterargument of him doing it for the inheritance. Jon Arryn should have warned Robert first and foremost. Stannis initiating it was likely somewhat counter-productive. Being dutiful doesn't mean being stupid. He was just being somewhat pragmatic as far as fulfilling his duties in that instance.

There was around 9 months of inactivity between Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon dying.

 

He was doing nothing. Yet when Robert died he expected everyone to believe him that he was the true heir, truly shocked that Renly and the Reach and Storm Lords ignored his 'truth'. It seems to me that Cersei killing Robert was something that benefited him very much. Telling Robert the truth would mean (if believed) that Robert would remarry, have legitimate heirs of his own. Not telling Robert would mean no legitimate heirs and an early death to the brother he did not particularly like. More importantly he would get to be King. WIN WIN FOR STANNIS!!!

[Sullen]

Hmmm...right, right, i was wrong. Happy? You won.

This isn't a contest, mate, it's a discussion.

There's no loss or victory.

 

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

You take that back.

Those nipples are magnificent, as big and round as plates.

Haha that's George for ya always describing intimate encounters in ways that cause me to laugh uncomfortably; just like sex in the real world.

[NOT A TARG I SWEAR]

IE: I won't do my duty if it can turn against me.

 

That's a very weak counterargument in favour of Stannis as far as dutifulness goes. Hell, that argument excuses all deserters fleeing before a battle if they think it's pointless.

Hell, it excuses Alester Florent trying to cut a deal with the Crown, he was simply "being pragmatic as far as fulfilling his duties go."

 

That was before Robert named Ned Hand of the King, which left Stannis considerably bitter.

Yes if you read the situation as Stannis not informing Robert mainly because of the potential of it turning against Stannis which is not what I was implying. What I meant is Stannis may have thought being the first to inform Robert worked against the claim being believed and thus in the long run potentially hindered his ability to do his duty.

[7-KG]

This isn't a contest, mate, it's a discussion.

There's no loss or victory.

It was a debate. There are losses and victories there.

A trap? No, just pointing out that someone truly dutiful, like Davos, would have warned his King/brother.

I imagine Kevan would have warned Tywin in a similar situation as well, Jon would have warned Robb, Cat would have warned Lysa, Oberyn would have warned Doran, Victarion would have warned Balon, even the Blackfish who does not get along with Hoster would have most likely warned his brother.

I actually can not think of many characters who would have definitely not warned their brother in the same situation.

But their situations would be different than Stannis', though. With most of those you listed their brothers would actually listen to them. Robert would most probably laugh at Stannis, as yourself said.

I'm not sure if i'm understanding, are you trying to argue with me or no?

[Sullen]

Yes if you read the situation as Stannis not informing Robert mainly because of the potential of it turning against Stannis which is not what I was implying. What I meant is Stannis may have thought being the first to inform Robert worked against the claim being believed and thus in the long run potentially hindered his ability to do his duty.

Doing your duty while hindered is better than not doing it at all.

He doesn't even try to look for a better way to inform Robert, be it through Eddard or Renly, he just lets the murder happen, man.

Fact is, he willingly shirked his duty.

And again, Allester Florent could claim the exact same thing, his ability to do his duty was hindered by Stannis losing the war, and so he did what he did to ensure the survival of his King and his heir. It doesn't make him any less of a traitor.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

But their situations would be different than Stannis', though. With most of those you listed their brothers would actually listen to them. Robert would most probably laugh at Stannis, as yourself said.

I'm not sure if i'm understanding, are you trying to argue with me or no?

My point is that Stannis is only dutiful when it suits him, when it benefits him. And he expected to be rewarded greatly for carrying out his 'duties'.

[Sullen]

But their situations would be different than Stannis', though. With most of those you listed their brothers would actually listen to them. Robert would most probably laugh at Stannis, as yourself said.

I'm not sure if i'm understanding, are you trying to argue with me or no?

I think he's saying that they would tell their brother even in a situation where they'd think they wouldn't be believed.

[7-KG]

My point is that Stannis is only dutiful when it suits him, when it benefits him. And he expected to be rewarded greatly for carrying out his 'duties'.

I don't think so, there were other occasions where Stannis wasn't getting beneficed, like:

-Saving the wall.

-Fighting the Ironborn in the Greyjoy's rebellion.

-Fighting Bolton.

"I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt."

None of which he "whined" about getting properly rewarded.

[Sullen]

 

I don't think so, there were other occasions where Stannis wasn't getting beneficed, like:

-Saving the wall.

Expected support from the Wall for doing so.

 

-Fighting the Ironborn in the Greyjoy's rebellion.

Granted.

 

-Fighting Bolton.

Expects the support of the North for doing so, and besides, defeating an ally of the Lannisters is beneficial to his cause, it's not selfless.

 

None of which he "whined" about getting properly rewarded.

He complained about Jon Snow not being accommodating for him enough though.

[7-KG]

Expected support from the Wall for doing so.

He complained about Jon Snow not being accommodating for him enough though.

-However, it isn't for his "benefice", he has the intention to fight the others.

-I don't remember this scene.

Expects the support of the North for doing, and besides, defeating an ally of the Lannisters is beneficial to his cause, it's not selfless.

I don't think he is doing it because it would earn him one less foe, at all. As showed in that quote, he is willing to die to free Winterfell, that isn't "serving his own selfish purposes" as you seem to think. And as i said, he wants the support of the north to fight the others.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

-Fighting the Ironborn in the Greyjoy's rebellion.

 

He was already being rewarded. He was Master of Ships and there was a war. He didn't go up against the Ironborn all by himself, nor did he use his own money to build this navy.

As the Master of Ships he was able to order about the Royal Navy and during the Greyjoy Rebellion the Redwyne navy. This was an honor, not a burden. Look at any military war in medieval times, men like Thomas Knyvert and Charles Howard begged for the honour to lead the English navy.

 

Only Stannis fans can see this as some kind of burden

[7-KG]

He was already being rewarded. He was Master of Ships and there was a war. He didn't go up against the Ironborn all by himself, nor did he use his own money to build this navy.

As the Master of Ships, he was able to order about the Royal Navy and during the Greyjoy Rebellion, the Redwyne navy. This was an honor, not a burden. Look at any military war in medieval times, men like Thomas Knyvert and Charles Howard begged for the honour to lead the English navy.

You're using the context of military wars that occured in real world, here. ASOIAF may be based on medieval times, but you don't know what'd be the reaction of a character if they were chosen to fight a war. Most probably, they'd run.

   Only Stannis fans can see this as some kind of burden

I don't think so, it depends on the individual's interpretation, there could be a Stannis hater who could think of it as a burden as well.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You're using the context of military wars that occured in real world, here. ASOIAF may be based on medieval times, but you don't know what'd be the reaction of a character if they were chosen to fight a war. Most probably, they'd run.

No, they would not. We have seen enough of War councils in Westeros to recognize the nobles reactions are very similar to the nobles reactions in our own histories.  We see the Greatjon and others argue over who gets to lead in the Northern army

"Roose Bolton and Robett Glover both demanded the honor of battle command, the first brusquely, the second with a smile and a jest."

We see the same in the Reach

Lord Mathis Rowan spoke up. "Who shall have the van?"

"Your Grace," said Ser Jon Fossoway, "I beg the honor."

"Beg all you like," said Ser Guyard the Green, "by rights it should be one of the seven who strikes the first blow."

"It takes more than a pretty cloak to charge a shield wall," Randyll Tarly announced. "I was leading Mace Tyrell's van when you were still sucking on your mother's teat, Guyard."

A clamor filled the pavilion, as other men loudly set forth their claims.

We even see the great honour bestowed on Imry Florent to lead Stannis' navy in the Battle of Blackwater. Nobles were desperate to fight and to lead battles.

This was a huge honour being given to Stannis, it was a gift.

 

I don't think so, it depends on the individual's interpretation, there could be a Stannis hater who could think of it as a burden as well.

Well they would be misinformed. Just like some Tyrion fans are misinformed when he is made to be Master of Coin. Places on the Small Council were significant honours that the vast majority of nobles would be hugely grateful to get. It takes a special kind of whiner to complain about such advancements.

[Farstrider]

Overrated Characters who receive undeserved praise?  Let's get on with it. 

Jon snow - moody bastard with little self-discipline, wouldn't get elected Treasurer of the Chamber Pot Attendants' association without someone like Samwell.

Too funny, too funny.  Thanks for the laugh, friend.  

Seriously, he was Mormont's steward.  He's attended a chamber pot or two.  Lord Steward Marsh to Rookie Steward Snow, "Ya gotta scrub the insides 'o the pot, lad.  Else the smell bothers his lordship," as he hands the boy an old rag.