Blackfish

[Blackfish Tully]

36 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He quit House Tully? Prove it, show the quote were he 'quit House Tully' because this is clearly bullshit. The Blackfish clearly disagrees with you:

..

i said he quit working for House Tully not that he quit House Tully , he was born a Tully so he will always be a Tully but that does not mean that his sword will always be sworn to House Tully. He swore his sword to Jon Aryn so he could not also be a sworn sword of House Tully . Was Sandor still sworn to House Clegane while he was sworn to Joffrey? Edmure bending the Knee to Robb does not automatically make Blackfish a sworn sword of Robb's . If Gregor had switched sides and bent the knee to Stannis would that automatically make Sandor a sworn sword of Stannis ? of course not , 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

18 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

i said he quit working for House Tully

When did he ever work for House Tully? And when did he quit? Can you quit being a member of a House?

I'd love to see the evidence for this, especially as he is listed as the Castellan of Riverrun and we are told by multiple sources that he is still first and foremost a Tully.

 

[Blackfish Tully]

8 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When did he ever work for House Tully? And when did he quit? Can you quit being a member of a House?

I'd love to see the evidence for this, especially as he is listed as the Castellan of Riverrun and we are told by multiple sources that he is still first and foremost a Tully.

 

Blackfish is a Knight and as a Knight you swear your sword into the service of a House , i'm assuming that when he was young he was sworn  to House Tully but after his fight with his brother he left and swore his sword to Jon Arryn as Knight of the Gate . The Vale and Riverlands are two separate regions ruled by two separate rulers , Jon Arryn would not have a Knight of the Gate that was still sworn to House Tully . 

But he still was a Tully and that would never change no matter what but it does not mean that he was in service to his brother or nephew at the time of GOT . 

He can still be a Tully but not be in service to House Tully, how is that so hard to understand?  

 

[Blackfish Tully]

19 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When did he ever work for House Tully? And when did he quit? Can you quit being a member of a House?

 

 

you can quit being in service to a House just like Sandor did so he would not get murdered by his brother.

Sandor swore his sword to Joffrey so he no longer was in service to House Clegane. That does not mean he was no longer a Clagane , Those two are not mutually exclusive .  If Gregor bends the knee to Stannis that does not mean Sandor is now in service to Stannis just like Edmure bending the knee to Robb did not mean Blackfish would automatically be  in service to Robb. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

you can quit being in service to a House just like Sandor did so he would not get murdered by his brother.

When did he quit? Provide evidence that Brynden quit his House as Cat certainly does not think so.

"Only one," she said, "the best of them, my uncle … but Brynden Blackfish was a Tully first."

Nor does the Blackfish

"Well, I told her she could bloody well find herself a new Knight of the Gate. Black fish or no, I am still a Tully. I shall leave for Riverrun by evenfall."

Where is the evidence that he quit his House like you claimed?

22 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Blackfish is a Knight and as a Knight you swear your sword into the service of a House , i'm assuming that when he was young he was sworn  to House Tully

 

You're assuming? So you are giving me shit in this thread about taking Edmure's word that he surrendered but you are offering ZERO evidence for your claims that he surrendered his loyalty to House Tully.

Even the Blackfish claims he is a Tully first and foremost. Are you saying that he is a liar? You do realize that this conversation is about the Blackfish in the books and not about you, right?

[Blackfish Tully]

9 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When did he quit? Provide evidence that Brynden quit his House as Cat certainly does not think so.

"Only one," she said, "the best of them, my uncle … but Brynden Blackfish was a Tully first."

Nor does the Blackfish

"Well, I told her she could bloody well find herself a new Knight of the Gate. Black fish or no, I am still a Tully. I shall leave for Riverrun by evenfall."

Where is the evidence that he quit his House like you claimed?

You're assuming? So you are giving me shit in this thread about taking Edmure's word that he surrendered but you are offering ZERO evidence for your claims that he surrendered his loyalty to House Tully.

Even the Blackfish claims he is a Tully first and foremost. Are you saying that he is a liar? You do realize that this conversation is about the Blackfish in the books and not about you, right?

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want . He was serving as Knight of the Gate in the Vale so to me that means he was no longer in service to House Tully. That's really all the evidence i have , if that's not enough for you then that's your choice. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you want . He was serving as Knight of the Gate in the Vale so to me that means he was no longer in service to House Tully. That's really all the evidence i have , if that's not enough for you then that's your choice. 

A person can serve more than one master. When Rodrik Stark was serving with the Second Sons he was still a member of House Stark, sworn to his nephew. Merryweather serves on the Small Council but he is still sworn to Mace.

I am not sure were you have got this idea that Brynde quit House Tully, especially when it contradicts his own words.

"Well, I told her she could bloody well find herself a new Knight of the Gate. Black fish or no, I am still a Tully. I shall leave for Riverrun by evenfall."

Is the Blackfish a liar? Does GRRM not know what he is writing about? or did he just forget to check with you?

[Blackfish Tully]

25 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

A person can serve more than one master. When Rodrik Stark was serving with the Second Sons he was still a member of House Stark, sworn to his nephew. Merryweather serves on the Small Council but he is still sworn to Mace.

I am not sure were you have got this idea that Brynde quit House Tully, especially when it contradicts his own words.

"Well, I told her she could bloody well find herself a new Knight of the Gate. Black fish or no, I am still a Tully. I shall leave for Riverrun by evenfall."

Is the Blackfish a liar? Does GRRM not know what he is writing about? or did he just forget to check with you?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this matter , no big deal, i believe that he was not sworn to House Tully and you believe he was , i freely admit that i could be wrong about this , i'm no expert on the practice of service for Knights in Westeroes but i don't think we need to get nasty about it . We are having a simple disagreement and are arguing the points out , isn't that the whole point of this forum?  

[Tijgy]

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Countless times in this thread I have stressed that the information could change, that the next book could reveal that the Blackfish did order it but that as far as we know right now Edmure surrendered like he claimed to have done.

 

While I do not completely agree with your premises of your argumentation, I did actually say that several times? Maybe you did not read those parts of those posts or maybe my english is just bad, but ... 

On 7-2-2016 at 11:48 PM, Tijgy said:

It was indeed Edmure who surrendered the castle to Jaime. Brynden was not there anymore, did escape and the terms were made between Edmure and Jaime. 

We don't know what happened in the conversation between Edmure and Brynden. We were not there. Maybe it could have been Edmure's decision, Brynden's or a decision by both of them. Each option is a speculation IMO. 

(...)

17 hours ago, Tijgy said:

(...)

If you compare the Blackfish and Edmure's character, who would want to yield the cast most? Blackfish or Edmure? Edmure is still the sweet man who wants to protect the smallfolk and who would probably prefer to save his men over the fact they would kill each other. So it would be more in character of Edmure to yield the castle than Blackfish, no? 

But to be honest, I do not really think one person ordered the other person to do something. Maybe as family they just made this decision together. (I must agree we do not completely how this talk went between the Blackfish and Edmure. We only know that Edmure went to RR, explained Jaime's conditions and the Blackfish swum away)

(...)

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Is the problem about this actually not that it was Robb who gave BF to protect RR and Jeyne? (Aka, who made BF castellan of RR and BF was in service to his great-nephew). 

Most of the time the BF was not really under the command of Edmure just of Robb. 

(This does not mean to me that BF and not Edmure surrendered to Jaime)

5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

(...)

Like I said before, I am not denying the fact it could have (and possible is) who surrendered Riverrun (Okay I admit, I wrote here to write Edmure). The deal Jaime and he made was about things which Edmure considers important (protecting the smallfolk, protecting his men, protecting his wife and son/daughter: ...). I am just denying the fact it is 100% certain Edmure just came inside and said "We surrender the castle". You cannot say this with absolute certainly because we only know Edmure entered RR, BF swum away, Edmure let the Lannisters and Freys inside and Edmure was happy with himself. 

I just think both of them decided together if they would yield the castle and maybe with the other senior officers/servants of the Tullies. I think it would weird if Edmure would at least not have even asked advice of his uncle about what they should do. 

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

(...)

But like I said before, I am not denying the fact it could have (and possible is) Edmure who surrendered Riverrun (I admit I forgot his name in my earlier post). The deal Jaime and he made was about things which Edmure considers important (protecting the smallfolk, protecting his men, protecting his wife and son/daughter: ...). I am just denying the fact it is 100% certain Edmure just came inside and said "We surrender the castle". You cannot say this with absolute certainly because we only know Edmure entered RR, BF swum away, Edmure let the Lannisters and Freys inside and Edmure was happy with himself that his uncle swum away. 

I just think both of them decided together if they would yield the castle and did this maybe with the other senior officers/servants of the Tullies. I think it would weird if Edmure would at least not have even asked advice of his uncle about what they should do. 

Addendum: I just see it less white-black and I do not adhere that much importance to whatever is written in the appendix. 

So I said several times it was Edmure who surrendered Riverrun. So I actually agree with you about that fact? We only disagree about the certainty that Edmure could have given the order to surrender Riverrun and that the Blackfish had no choice to follow this order (I am however not sure that is also something you want to say?); and that is because I am not entirely convinced by argumentation which consists (if I am correct): 

1. Brynden is the castellans of RR. He is in service to his nephew and he had to follow his order to surrender Riverrun - I do not completely disagree with this. This could be the truth. However I did have some issue with how this might disregard the order of Robb to protect Jeyne. And you could have here a conflict between an order of his liege lord(?) and an order of his king. This raises the question did Brynden really have and feel the obligation to listen to his liege lord before his king? I have some troubles with this and I just wanted to address this to you so you could explain how you see this? 
2.  You also keep reminding us of what Edmure said: "I surrendered the castle to you". And you compare this to the fact we cannot sure about Brynden, ... But there is still a difference between about an event one person says it happened and an event several people said it happened. The Freys tell stories about Robb turning in a wolf and killing someone. I do not believe that, do you? In the Small Council it was mentioned Davos died; al lot of us believed that but that wasn't also the real truth what happened ... I am just keep writing the things which did happen on page. 

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Do you see my point here? Edmure surrendering is canon. In the future this can be changed, but right now the books state that it was Edmure. Anyone else ordering the surrender is just a theory.

Yeah, that is the truth and we see that happen. Edmure surrendered RR to Jaime and it is more in Edmure's character to yield the castle than Brynden's. (And I said this also several times except I said I am not 100 % of that and you did not convince)

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

What actual difference does it make who surrendered?

in the beginning of this whole discussion I actually wanted to say this is actually just a technicality. So... I think we should agree to disagree about the 100% certainty that Edmure gave the order to the Blackfish (and we are actually really here disagreeing about the fact how sure it is? Why you are also saying that later it could turn out the Blackfish gave the order? So I am not really sure about what we are actually arguing and why you keep saying that I say Edmure did not surrender RR which I apparently did not?

For the rest, I just would like they decided as a family what they were going to do.

4 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Literally nothing changes if the writing was changed to that. Edmure and Brydnen can still plan retribution no matter who gave the order to surrender. Now given that it changes absolutely nothing, why did GRRM write it so it appears that Edmure gave the order?

The only interesting thing to the story is indeed what both of them talked about each other during time together in RR. Did Edmure came in and said "just shut up uncle, we surrender?" and talked a solution how BF would swum away or did they talk about other more sneaky (and interesting stuff) which includes a lot of Lannister and Frey blood, a free queen and a free trout?) And that is indeed more interesting and in my headcannonning of the GNC - The Riverlands edition I prefer just they talked about the decision together, the consequences of the decision, what they would do in the future and many more things.