_LongClaw_ Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Let me start off by saying I completely agree with Torrhen's decision to kneel before Aegon. There was little to no way I foresee Torrhen's army taking down Aegon and his sisters on the Trident. But! What is he Torrhen had not knelt, and fell back to Moat Cailin in a more defensive approach? Now I'm not saying Moat Cailin would have been the be all end all of Aegon but if the Targaryen army had to conquer all the North from Moat Cailin to the Wall then could the Northmen have stood a chance like the Dornish did in the south.Could the terrain and climate of the North weakened Targaryen resolve? If the Northmen had engaged in a more gorilla style warfare, rather than a large scale battle, I think the Northern Dominion may have evaded Aegon as Dorne did for so many years. But then again perhaps I'm underestimating Balerion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I am not concerned by the size of Aegon's 45k strong army. It all came down to the plan to assassinate the Dragons. If that succeeded, then Aegon had no hope of conquering the North. In fact, he would not even have been able to hold onto the South, since the likes of the West and the Vale would have risen in revolt almost immediately, as would the Ironborn no doubt. The interesting thing is that the plan to assassinate the Dragons seemed to have been based on something more substantial than just a wild whim. I think there was ancient lore involved there, perhaps dating back to the Age of Heroes when the Children and/or the First Men still had to slay ancient Dragons in Westeros. The fact that we see Brandon Snow slicing the three weirwood arrows from Winterfell's Heart Tree in Bran's vision seems highly significant. I strongly suspect that this method of killing Dragons will come up again in the future plot. In any case, if that plan had been carried through successfully then Torhenn could have retreated to Moat Cailin and Aegon's entire campaign would have collapsed. For some reason Torhenn either did not have enough confidence in the ancient lore, or else the Dragons were too well protected for Brandon Snow to get close enough to shoot them with the weirwood arrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_LongClaw_ Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 I had to go back and look at that Bran chapter again because I never thought about the significance of that vision in regards to the passage in the World Book about Brandon Snow. You just blew my mind. Weirwood arrows! Amazing. Torhenn had to be aware of this method as well. Perhaps he didn't let Brandon attack on purpose? Could Torhenn have seen a positive in submitting to the Targaryens and letting the Dragons live? I don't know what that positive would be, but if he had the means to dispose of the dragons why choose not too? And who could still know of this method in present day westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, _LongClaw_ said: I had to go back and look at that Bran chapter again because I never thought about the significance of that vision in regards to the passage in the World Book about Brandon Snow. You just blew my mind. Weirwood arrows! Amazing. Torhenn had to be aware of this method as well. Perhaps he didn't let Brandon attack on purpose? Could Torhenn have seen a positive in submitting to the Targaryens and letting the Dragons live? I don't know what that positive would be, but if he had the means to dispose of the dragons why choose not too? And who could still know of this method in present day westeros? Well, it was a means based on ancient lore, untried and untested, and requiring someone to come within a hundred paces of a massive dragon, guarded by 45,000 men, and shooting it. Then repeating that with two more dragons. I can understand that it was a long shot by any stretch of the imagination. And if it went wrong, the result would be war against Aegon and his dragons. So I guess Torhenn sent Brandon to assess the viability of the plan, and when it turned out to be impossible, they chose against it. Alternatively, I hold to the idea that Torhenn received some kind of prophecy via greendream or some other mechanism, about a future child being born from the union of Stark and Targaryen, who will be key to saving the entire North - and the whole of Westeros - from annihilation in years to come. And hence he knelt for the greater good. Perhaps the vision even showed him that the Starks would regain their crown again when this child was born, and that the North's submission would only be for a relatively small period of time, compared to their 8000 year long history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Vance II Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Torrhen had a pretty large army too, right? I want to say 30,000 but it's probably a bit lower. Take the dragons out of the equation, and they could totally just sit a few thousand men at Moat Cailin and hold it almost indefinitely. Reinforce White Harbor and other ports, and I think the Starks could have easily held out. Of course, there were dragons. 30 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: I hold to the idea that Torhenn received some kind of prophecy via greendream or some other mechanism, about a future child being born from the union of Stark and Targaryen, who will be key to saving the entire North I mean, that would be cool I guess, but he still called his banners and marched south. I'd still say Torrhen saw the dragons and checked himself before he wrecked himself. I've also never understood the whole Dorne thing. The only real reason we're ever given as to why they held out is essentially "F*ck you, that's why". I've always thought of it as just a plot device to show more separation between Dorne and the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 5 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said: Torrhen had a pretty large army too, right? I want to say 30,000 but it's probably a bit lower. Take the dragons out of the equation, and they could totally just sit a few thousand men at Moat Cailin and hold it almost indefinitely. Reinforce White Harbor and other ports, and I think the Starks could have easily held out. Of course, there were dragons. I mean, that would be cool I guess, but he still called his banners and marched south. I'd still say Torrhen saw the dragons and checked himself before he wrecked himself. I've also never understood the whole Dorne thing. The only real reason we're ever given as to why they held out is essentially "F*ck you, that's why". I've always thought of it as just a plot device to show more separation between Dorne and the rest. I'm saying that if Torhenn received such a message, it was on the eve of the battle. Maybe from a Riverlands wood's witch, maybe from a Crannogmen greendreamer, maybe from a weirwood vision he got directly. If there are greenseers today, then there were greenseers 300 years ago. Just because we don't know their names does not mean they did not exist. Anyway, it is speculation, but given how many other momentous events were driven by prophecy, I would not discount it as a possibility. Some examples include: The Targaryens packing up and leaving Valyria based on a prophetic dream, setting up the entire story we have today. Maggie the Frog's prophecy setting up Cersei's entire plot Rhaegar's prophetic beliefs that set up his kidnapping of Lyanna and initiated Robert's Rebellion. Quaithe's prophecies that are guiding Daenerys's actions And so on and so forth. Having Torhenn kneel to Aegon due to a greendream will be entirely in keeping with the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_LongClaw_ Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 So I've been trying to research as much as I can find on Torrhen and Brandon Snow. The Stark family tree in the World Book begins with Benjen Stark married to Lysa Locke...is Benjen the direct son of Torrhen? We know Torrhen's daughter married Ronnel Arryn and he did have multiple sons Quote Though Torrhen Stark had given up the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter, his sons were less glad of the Targaryen yoke" Did only Benjen's line produce offspring? There is no other instance of a Stark marrying another Stark outside of Benjen's line...so what happened to his other sons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artos Cold Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 1 hour ago, _LongClaw_ said: So I've been trying to research as much as I can find on Torrhen and Brandon Snow. The Stark family tree in the World Book begins with Benjen Stark married to Lysa Locke...is Benjen the direct son of Torrhen? We know Torrhen's daughter married Ronnel Arryn and he did have multiple sons Did only Benjen's line produce offspring? There is no other instance of a Stark marrying another Stark outside of Benjen's line...so what happened to his other sons? From my calculations, Benjen is actually Torrhen's grandson, great-grandson or great-great-grandson. We know Lord Ellard Stark voted for Laenor Velaryon in the Great Council of 101. He was likely Benjen's father. His grandson, Cregan, was Lord Stark at the beginning of tDotD. Let's say he was twenty at the time. That means he was born 110 AC. Rickon, Cregan's father, Benjen's son, lets's he was also twenty when Cregan was born. He was born in 90 AC. Once again, let us assume Benjen was twenty when Rickon was born. He was born in 70 AC. That gives us a 70 year gap between Aegon's Conquest and Benjen's birth, and Torrhen already had several sons by this point. These calculations are probably pretty incorrect, but i'm 100% Benjen is not Torrhen's son. Also, the reason the other Stark branches are not showen is probably because they're just not important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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