Lady Sansa Clegane

[ThePukwudgie]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

George has admitted that he made them too young at the start, and certainly now with the drop of the 5 year gap it's even more apparent. The gap would have made Sansa 18, Arya 16, Rickon 11-12, Bran 13-14 (he was 7 at the beginning, Arya was 9 at the start) and Jon (21-22) and Dany (20-21).

He can't undo that mistake, and he just defends it with their experiences making them far older mentally and emotionally than kids of the same age in the here and now of our society.

Experience doesn't accelerate brain development. It certainly creates new connections in their brains, but it doesn't make their brains reach adulthood faster.

Anyways, another point. People keep saying Sansa should marry for love, but what makes you think she can even love Sandor? He's not a lovable person. He's a horrible person, albeit, with some regret. As if that matters.

This plays into Sansa's mental maturity. She clearly feels lust, but immature and inexperienced people will often confuse this for love. The fact that she's picturing Sandor in her marriage bed only confirms her lack of mental maturity.

She's not old enough to choose.

[Darksky]

There will be no SanSan's happy little marriage with little Sandors running around. Littlefinger and Sansa will go down together. Even HBO thinks so -->http://thegotparty.com/

Those two are a package deal till the end.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, Darksky said:

There will be no SanSan's happy little marriage with little Sandors running around. Littlefinger and Sansa will go down together. Even HBO thinks so -->http://thegotparty.com/

Those two are a package deal till the end.

I don't know if that is from HBO. But if it's so, it's just a marketing campaign. You can't believe that if Sansa's name is on Baelish Party (as his second, let's say for vicepresident) that means that her character is going to marry him instead of another (like Sandor).....can you?

I mean, do you really believe your own argument?

[OldGimletEye]

18 minutes ago, Darksky said:

There will be no SanSan's happy little marriage with little Sandors running around. Littlefinger and Sansa will go down together. Even HBO thinks so -->http://thegotparty.com/

Those two are a package deal till the end.

I'm not sure what this proves. Could you please explain what you're getting at?

[Darksky]

yes this is an official HBO campaign to promote the release of season 6 on Digital HD/DVD/Blu Ray

I'm half-serious. But I actually do see Sansa go down with Petyr.

BTW each candidate's description/platform is golden.

'Innovation in transportation' for Littlefinger....just brilliant.

Jon is 'R'hllor's chosen son' HA

[ThePukwudgie]

1 minute ago, Darksky said:

yes this is an official HBO campaign to promote the release of season 6 on Digital HD/DVD/Blu Ray

I'm half-serious. But I actually do see Sansa go down with Petyr.

BTW each candidate's description/platform is golden.

'Innovation in transportation' for Littlefinger....just brilliant.

Jon is 'R'hllor's chosen son' HA

Sophie Turner seems to be a PetyrSansa shipper. At least as partners.

[OldGimletEye]

42 minutes ago, Darksky said:

yes this is an official HBO campaign to promote the release of season 6 on Digital HD/DVD/Blu Ray

I'm half-serious. But I actually do see Sansa go down with Petyr.

BTW each candidate's description/platform is golden.

'Innovation in transportation' for Littlefinger....just brilliant.

Jon is 'R'hllor's chosen son' HA

So if you're "half serious", then you're admitting this doesn't prove anything? Isn't that right? 

I don't think she is going down with Petry. I think he is likely the giant she ends up slaying.

 

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Sophie Turner seems to be a PetyrSansa shipper. At least as partners.

She is always had a thing for LF. But, frankly, you need to take what she says with a big grain of salt where Sansa is concerned. 

[AugustusTheGreat]

On 7/29/2016 at 11:56 AM, House_Tony_Stark said:

Lol, OT  but word of advice my friend.  The vast majority of married women out there don't do so based on looks the way men do. It's all about what you can do for her be it being a nice loving man, protected, being rich, being exciting, being a strong leader, being someone who makes her feel happy and loved.  Looks are a very temporary quality of a person, one can be some toned muscle head and be a bearded guy with a beer belly four years later.

I think they would be a great pair because he really isn't a bad guy and he would absolutely fight and die for her.  Jon is the same way but he is her brother.

The Hound is a very humble guy, I know, but at the same time he is an old and gross bag with a bad personality for a relationship and isnt the head of a house. He doesnt look like the romantic type at all and I doubt that either of them have an interest in marriage. 

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, ThePukwudgie said:

He's a horrible person, albeit, with some regret. As if that matters.

Compared to who? Tyrion? Dany? Stannis? All of them, have done some pretty atrocious shit.

It's true that some characters have been morally better than Sandor throughout the books. Like Ned or Brienne for instance. But the fact is that some of the more other popular characters have done some pretty dirty stuff. And Sandor realizes that he has done bad and it's clear that he wants to change.

[Meera of Tarth]

36 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

No, only positive assertions have to be proven. This is done because negative assertions can be extremely hard, if not outright impossible to prove, and because the absence of something is self-evident by the lack of evidence proving its existence, in this case the usefulness of House Clegane. For example:

Someone asserting that dragons don't exist don't have to prove their assertion. The burden of proof is on those who disagree.

 

Since when?

If someone in the early 18th century said: uranium (and the nuclear power related to it)  doesn't exist. Just because at that time it was difficult to prove its existance/uses, means that the lack of evidence is proof than it didn't exist? Oh wait...it was discovered in that century...

We can't extrapolate that to: Earth doesn't move around the Sun, women are not capable of voting, or Bran is not a boy. There's not need to prove the contrary!

The lack of evidence is what has moved genius and intellectuals, curious and hard-working minds through the centuries....

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, ThePukwudgie said:

This plays into Sansa's mental maturity. She clearly feels lust, but immature and inexperienced people will often confuse this for love. The fact that she's picturing Sandor in her marriage bed only confirms her lack of mental maturity.

Was it lust when she prayed for Sandor to get healed? Was it lust when she got nervous before meeting the Tyrells and whished the Hound was there? Was it just lust when she wondered what had happened to Sandor when she was at the Fingers? I don't think so.

1 hour ago, ThePukwudgie said:

She's not old enough to choose.

And how are you certain of this determination? Are you making this based on some kind of pure biological argument about brain development? I mean there is science out there that says a person's brain doesn't fully develop until they are 25. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to marry before then? How about vote? How about serve in the military.

I think we'll have to await the determination of the story to make that assessment. I don't think you can just say well her brain isn't fully developed. And as many people have pointed out, they take into consideration that GRRM messed up the ages. You either believed that GRRM messed up the ages or ASOIAF sure does have a lot of pedos in it.

[Meera of Tarth]

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Compared to who? Tyrion? Dany? Stannis? All of them, have done some pretty atrocious shit.

It's true that some characters have been morally better than Sandor throughout the books, at least. Like Ned or Brienne for instance. But the fact is that some of the more other poplular characters have done some pretty dirty stuff. And Sandor realizes that the has done bad and it's clear that he wants to change.

Exactly. Nobody is saying that Sandor is the most moral guy from the books, or that the moral thing is to match him with an innocent girl like Sansa, because: "that's what happens in TBaTb".

Some people here are giving arguments about what Sansa really wants! And we believe she wants him. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't say that.

And I'm not happy with their age difference (given that she is very young) but we have to take into account two things:

• that issue is not as important in the show and the author realised the kids should have been older 
• I note that love is much more important than what the others might think.

He is not a pedo. He's a guy, older, not the perfect one, (who is perfect anyway=?), who has changed and he can give love.

Oh, and in regards to "shipping".....there's no need to ship anyoneto defend who is better suited for a character. Unless you really dislike a character, the logical thing would be wanting for that character who she really wants if there is love.

[OldGimletEye]

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He is not a pedo. He's a guy, older, not the perfect one, (who is perfect anyway=?), who has changed and he can give love.

Yeah, as we have discussed before, if Sandor is pedo, then there are a lot of pedos in this book. But, I don't think GRRM meant to write an epic series about a bunch of pedos, to include Tyrion, one of the main characters in the book.

I really don't like the ages in the books. That would be one criticism I would make. But, GRRM went that route, believing I think, but wrongly, he was reflecting medieval social mores, and I think you have to roll with it a little bit.

[ThePukwudgie]

22 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Since when?

If someone in the early 18th century said: uranium (and the nuclear power related to it)  doesn't exist. Just because at that time it was difficult to prove its existance/uses, means that the lack of evidence is proof than it didn't exist? Oh wait...it was discovered in that century...

We can't extrapolate that to: Earth doesn't move around the Sun, women are not capable of voting, or Bran is not a boy. There's not need to prove the contrary!

The lack of evidence is what has moved genius and intellectuals, curious and hard-working minds through the centuries....

What are you talking about?

First of all, you're trying to generalize a reasoning/debate rule to the scientific method and how science is conducted. In a debate, you never ask somebody to prove a negative assertion. Only positive assertions need to be proven . . . IN A DEBATE.

Second of all, you don't seem to understand what I wrote.

Laslty, stay on topic. Though I did go on a tangent, I didn't drop the topic completely as you just did.
 

17 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Was it lust when she prayed for Sandor to get healed? Was it lust when she got nervous before meeting the Tyrells and whished the Hound was there? Was it just lust when she wondered what had happened to Sandor when she was at the fingers? I don't think so.

Yes, it's lust, mixed in with a bit of compassion. Lust doesn't limit a person to thinking about another person in a sexual manner, especially when they're so confused they think they're actually in love. I remember how I used to think when I was younger. I would think similar things as Sansa.

Quote

And how are you certain of this determination? Are you making this based on some kind of pure biological argument about brain development? I mean there is science out there that says a person's brain doesn't fully develop until they are 25. Does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to marry before then? How about vote? How about serve in the military.

It's not an on/off switch. It's a gradual change that happens to everyone. This is why the drinking age is 18-21. This is why the driving age is 16-18. Different countries disagree on when people are mentally ready to assume the responsibilities of a specific action.

Quote

I think we'll have to await the determination of the story to make that assessment. I don't think you can just say well her brain isn't fully developed. And as many people have pointed out, they take into consideration that GRRM messed up the ages. You either believed that GRRM messed up the ages or ASOIAF sure does have a lot of pedos in it.

What GRRM intended is irrelevant. What he wrote makes Westeros look like it's full of hebos(not a typo). I don't have to wait for moral relativism to shift the goal post to wherever is convenient.

[ThePukwudgie]

25 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Exactly. Nobody is saying that Sandor is the most moral guy from the books, or that the moral thing is to match him with an innocent girl like Sansa, because: "that's what happens in TBaTb".

Some people here are giving arguments about what Sansa really wants! And we believe she wants him. If I didn't think that, I wouldn't say that.

And I'm not happy with their age difference (given that she is very young) but we have to take into account two things:

• that issue is not as important in the show and the author realised the kids should have been older 
• I note that love is much more important than what the others might think.

He is not a pedo. He's a guy, older, not the perfect one, (who is perfect anyway=?), who has changed and he can give love.

Oh, and in regards to "shipping".....there's no need to ship anyoneto defend who is better suited for a character. Unless you really dislike a character, the logical thing would be wanting for that character who she really wants if there is love.

You're right. He's not a pedo. He's a hebo. As for Sansa, she's not old enough to make these decisions, and Sandor shouldn't exploit that. People don't seem to understand this. Sansa ISN'T old enough to know what she wants. The fact that she's confusing lust and compassion with love proves this.

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

What are you talking about?

First of all, you're trying to generalize a reasoning/debate rule to the scientific method and how science is conducted. In a debate, you never ask somebody to prove a negative assertion. Only positive assertions need to be proven . . . IN A DEBATE.

Second of all, you don't seem to understand what I wrote.

Laslty, stay on topic. Though I did go on a tangent, I didn't drop the topic completely as you just did.
 

You were saying that Clegane's House being useless didn't need to be proven, but it being useful had to be. I was surprised, since I think that there was no logic in that statement. All facts need to be proven unless the poster says it's just speculation (or is a personal thought instead of a claim that is on debate).

As a result of not understanding why certain facts in a debate are not necessarily to be proven because they are "positive" and others don't have to because they are "negative" I put some examples of it that can be applied in general: debates, scientific method, facts about characters, etc. I thought you would understand that it was for making you think that maybe negative facts had to be proven; especially if you request a positive one to be proven before being rejected. So, if I was off-topic, I apologise, but I was referring to that.

I still wonder why in a debate these thngs work differently. Don't want to go more off-topic about that but I think it deserved attention considering it was linked to the thread.

[OldGimletEye]

18 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Yes, it's lust, mixed in with a bit of compassion. Lust doesn't limit a person to thinking about another person in a sexual manner, especially when they're so confused they think they're actually in love. I remember how I used to think when I was younger. I would think similar things as Sansa.

So you're admitting that she has compassion for Sandor? Doesn't that kind of imply that there is more going on there than mere lust?

Also, you're assuming she is confused.Where is this coming from?

Also, I have no way of verifying whether you would or would not "think like Sansa". So no comment.

 

18 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

It's not an on/off switch. It's a gradual change that happens to everyone. This is why the drinking age is 18-21. This is why the driving age is 16-18. Different countries disagree on when people are mentally ready to assume the responsibilities of a specific action.

So, the the issues around when someone is adult enough to make their own decisions is a bit complicated? Like for instance it's well known, I think, that different parts of the brain develop at different ages. In fact, I think there is some research out there that suggest men don't fully develop into their 40s. And then their are issues of how societal constructs might impact maturity too.So, it may not be the case that Sansa won't be mature enough to make her own decisions, right?

18 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

What GRRM intended is irrelevant. What he wrote makes Westeros look like it's full of hebos(not a typo). I don't have to wait for moral relativism to shift the goal post to wherever is convenient.

Look, I'm not really a big fan of moral relativism either. But, yeah, I think GRRM's intentions here are relevant, otherwise it would be a bit difficult to take any of the story seriously. Also, there is the fact that the appropriate age to do X, might always come down to a bit of an arbitrary societal determination as it may not always be clear what age is appropriate. Letting kids drink alcohol at 16 for instance isn't a clear moral outrage as say slavery.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

19 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

You're right. He's not a pedo. He's a hebo. As for Sansa, she's not old enough to make these decisions, and Sandor shouldn't exploit that. People don't seem to understand this. Sansa ISN'T old enough to know what she wants. The fact that she's confusing lust and compassion with love proves this.

I don't know what a "hebo" is.

I think she is old enough to know if she is in love with someone or not. Years older, in fact. Normally girls don't confuse lust with compassion... and know about if they are in love with someone/have a crush at very early ages. But I agree that her chapters might be confusing for some people.

As I didn't read the books in order, (beginning with the 3rd after s4)  the UnKiss confused me a little too, at first too, but when I read her chapters in order then it was very clear.

I think she is sure about what she feels. And if she isn't, when she meets Sandor again, she'll know. That's how things from the heart work. She will know if she loves him or it's just compassion or lust or whathever. I bet she already knows it, though, and it's the former. 

[ThePukwudgie]

9 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think she is sure about what she feels. And if she isn't, when she meets Sandor again, she'll know. That's how things from the heart work. She will know if she loves him or it's just compassion or lust or whathever. I bet she already knows it, though, and it's the former. 

I doubt that. If I had a 13yo daughter, that argument would never fly. Not with I as the parent, or a court of law in most countries. I don't know why SanSan shippers are even trying. She's too young. It's creepy. He's a hebo. It's an open and shut case.

Look, I'm not interested in reducing arguments about the complexity of the brain, especially in development, or the legalities of this pairing if it took place in the real world in the 21st century to shipper fantasy. I know everything I need to know about this pairing, and I've concluded that it is an extremely creepy pairing, to say the least. If I were Sansa's parent, Sandor would be placed in the black cells.

I'm ok with GRRM writing about it. Fiction is fiction, but let's not mince the truth here. It's inexcusable on Sandor's part.