Lady Sansa Clegane

[Le Cygne]

Well, that's not the story they've been telling. Negative arguments could be easily made against the others put forth as alternatives even though Sansa does not want them. They said they never even considered anything like that with Jon, he's her brother, there's nothing there. They tossed out the Tyrion marriage, and she was miserable married to him, and finds him repulsive. Littlefinger caused her and her family death and misery, and she doesn't want him, she just pushed him away.

But just in terms of who would make Sansa happy, Sandor is the one she clearly expressed a strong preference for in the books, and they have been hinting on the show, too. And he has expressed a strong preference for her, too. He was born to a family sworn to the Lannisters, but it's a positive in the North that he left the Lannisters (just look at Arya when he says "fuck the king"), and his skill as a warrior has been often noted by the show, including just recently.

They brought him back and in short order established him as loyal to friends, and a great fighter, gave him an obvious parallel to Sansa (more beauty and the beast hints, and they have been doing this all along, having them do the same things, even giving them the same lines), he wants to do good, he is heading her way, and more. They said bringing him back was of key importance. He clearly is set to do good things in the north, at a time when he is much needed.

If she is some sort of queen, which I doubt, having a husband or lover without political aspirations is a plus, he's just there to support her, and he would be content to do so. And she has always wanted to marry for love, is tired of people telling what to do, and the status quo after a zombie apocalypse is hardly what the story seems leading toward. He could be given a title, but it's not without precedent for characters to make their own choices. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

[ADanceWithCats]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

GRMM wouldn't be trolling SanSan fans, because he's writing a BatB story, one he likes. Even if it ends badly, the romance will most likely be developed. But he wouldn't be trolling his own work.

Has he ever referred to Sansa-Sandor as a Beauty and the Beast romance,  though? He did, to Jaime/Brienne, and was quite open about that, too. But I never once read him talk about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast. My impression is, it's just a fabrication of impressionable SanSan fans.

[Le Cygne]

On 7/31/2016 at 9:39 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

GRMM wouldn't be trolling SanSan fans, because he's writing a BatB story, one he likes. Even if it ends badly, the romance will most likely be developed. But he wouldn't be trolling his own work.

Yes, he likes the story very much, and has spoken about Sansa and the Hound as Beauty and the Beast. And it's quite obvious, he parallels them directly in the scene he wrote. He even gives the Hound the Beast's lines.

And no, he doesn't talk more about Jaime and Brienne, an actor repeated what he told her to a reporter. He talks about Sansa and the Hound often, he brings SanSan up himself, he even winked when asked about their future.

There's lots more Beauty and the Beast for Sansa and the Hound at the link here.

(fixed the link)

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, ADanceWithCats said:

Has he ever referred to Sansa-Sandor as a Beauty and the Beast romance,  though? He did, to Jaime/Brienne, and was quite open about that, too. But I never once read him talk about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast. My impression is, it's just a fabrication of impressionable SanSan fans.

I don't have that information, I don't know.

It's not a fabrication, though, it really looks as a BatB story. Many links from @Le Cygne have shown the simmiliarities between the show and the 1946 film and the Disney film; and, apart from that, I think it's pretty clear if one has read the books, or even watched some of the scenes.

I wasn't a SanSan fan before reading the books, so I didn't pay a lot of attention when watching the show, but after reading some threads in the forum and re-watching the show I was convinced. Let's not forget that she is said to be a Beauty many times, while he clearly is a Beast in looks--> his face is burned.

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, ADanceWithCats said:

Has he ever referred to Sansa-Sandor as a Beauty and the Beast romance,  though? He did, to Jaime/Brienne, and was quite open about that, too. But I never once read him talk about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast. My impression is, it's just a fabrication of impressionable SanSan fans.

No here is an example of a fabrication:

Quote

I fully agree that GRRM is trolling the Sansans. Heavily.

And GRRM would do this for exactly what reason?

[Meera of Tarth]

1 minute ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, he likes the story very much, and has spoken about Sansa and the Hound as Beauty and the Beast. And it's quite obvious, he parallels them directly in the scene he wrote. He even gives the Hound the Beast's lines.

Thanks! so proof

[ADanceWithCats]

3 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Thanks! so proof

LeCygne's words that GRRM spoke about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast is not a proof. GRRM's words would be one. Hope that helps. 

[Meera of Tarth]

17 minutes ago, ADanceWithCats said:

LeCygne's words that GRRM spoke about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast is not a proof. GRRM's words would be one. Hope that helps. 

I was referring to the references, actually. (links that I was pointing out). 

I don't remember him saying "it's a Beauty and The Beast story" but he has sayed he has played with them (as romance) and the show as well, and given the links and the similarities that can be seen there (there's no need to be a SanSan fan to see them, I wasn't and I saw that) as well as the fact that he loves writing these type of stories: Brienne and Jaime, Beauty and The Beast from the 90's....I think it could be assumed.

But I don't have 100% proof of that (normally it's difficult to have 100% proof of something).

[Darksky]

Why would Martin have two cliches of the same kind in his story? Jaime x Brienne and Sansa x Sandor as BatB, Isn't that overkill? Isn't he known for not being a predictable trope lover? Or maybe his trope breaking prowess is just greatly exaggerated. He is not an innovative, creative writer. Fancy that.

So yeah on that belief, I say he'd totally have two BatB instances in his story.

The only good that could come from Sandor would be fighting and dying for the Realm. He has nothing of importance to offer beyond that. He's a small fish in a big pond. And it's totally fine, not everyone can be Tyrion, Daenerys or Jon.

I still maintain there will be little to no romance in the remaining 13 episodes. There's just not enough time and besides I've noticed that sex/romance/nudity have been on decline since season 3. I remember, back in the day, there were many regular complaints about all the sex and nudity happening. Not an episode went by without tits and ass. There is not a single sex scene in season 6 and only two (short and not explicit) in season 5 (excluding Ramsay-Sansa as it was forced and off-camera). The last two seasons barely have any nudity. It's curious to me since HBO shows are known for the excessive explicit content. GOT focuses on other aspects now.

[Le Cygne]

Everything has been done before. It's all in the telling. GRRM:

Quote

"You've got many books that have the same basic idea when you look at them... It's all in the execution. Originality is great, but it's an overrated virtue, I think. Shakespeare wasn't very original, he was just very, very good. He could write exactly the same story that... someone else had previously put down, but the way he did it elevated it to an all time classic as opposed to whatever had been before."

Also the title of the last book is "A Dream of Spring"... Sansa put Sandor's cloak with her summer silks...

[ThePukwudgie]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

GRMM wouldn't be trolling SanSan fans, because he's writing a BatB story, one he likes. Even if it ends badly, the romance will most likely be developed. But he wouldn't be trolling his own work.

That makes no sense. Just because he likes BatB doesn't mean he'd pay tribute to it, beat for beat, in GoT. He referenced it, and that's enough. There's nothing stopping him from turning that trope on its head.

[ThePukwudgie]

3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

Well, that's not the story they've been telling. Negative arguments could be easily made against the others put forth as alternatives even though Sansa does not want them. They said they never even considered anything like that with Jon, he's her brother, there's nothing there. They tossed out the Tyrion marriage, and she was miserable married to him, and finds him repulsive. Littlefinger caused her and her family death and misery, and she doesn't want him, she just pushed him away.

But just in terms of who would make Sansa happy, Sandor is the one she clearly expressed a strong preference for in the books, and they have been hinting on the show, too. And he has expressed a strong preference for her, too. He was born to a family sworn to the Lannisters, but it's a positive in the North that he left the Lannisters (just look at Arya when he says "fuck the king"), and his skill as a warrior has been often noted by the show, including just recently.

They brought him back and in short order established him as loyal to friends, and a great fighter, gave him an obvious parallel to Sansa (more beauty and the beast hints, and they have been doing this all along, having them do the same things, even giving them the same lines), he wants to do good, he is heading her way, and more. They said bringing him back was of key importance. He clearly is set to do good things in the north, at a time when he is much needed.

If she is some sort of queen, which I doubt, having a husband or lover without political aspirations is a plus, he's just there to support her, and he would be content to do so. And she has always wanted to marry for love, is tired of people telling what to do, and the status quo after a zombie apocalypse is hardly what the story seems leading toward. He could be given a title, but it's not without precedent for characters to make their own choices. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

So many desperate nonsense arguments. First of all, stop putting so much trust in what D&D say. They can easily lie, or say things in jest, which is what I believe they were doing at comic-con. Being sarcastic so as not to give anything away.

You don't know what story they've been telling, because you haven't seen the conclusion. You think you do because you're familiar with the trope. That is all.

None of those arguments have anything to do with happiness. Moving on.

Soup and ale is a weak theory. Beyond that you're making A LOT of assumptions about Sandor and his future.

The last paragraph is nothing more than spinning wheels. These arguments in favor of SanSan are just so weak. They can easily be brushed off as desperate shipper misinterpretation.

[ThePukwudgie]

2 hours ago, ADanceWithCats said:

Has he ever referred to Sansa-Sandor as a Beauty and the Beast romance,  though? He did, to Jaime/Brienne, and was quite open about that, too. But I never once read him talk about Sansa-Sandor as Beauty and the Beast. My impression is, it's just a fabrication of impressionable SanSan fans.

IT DOESN'T MATTER even if GRRM DOES view it as a BatB story. He can still, and is prone to, defying audience expectations. It's fools gold to hope that just because GRRM likes a particular trope-ish story, that he'll honor it in his story.

2 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

No here is an example of a fabrication:

And GRRM would do this for exactly what reason?

Because he likes to play with everyone's expectations, and the best way to do that is to write a typical set-up, but end it with an atypical punchline.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

That makes no sense. Just because he likes BatB doesn't mean he'd pay tribute to it, beat for beat, in GoT. He referenced it, and that's enough. There's nothing stopping him from turning that trope on its head.

But subverting the trope it's not trolling. He is writing a BatB story, the ending doesn't have to be the same. It can end badly. But in my opinion, if you have payed a lot attention in writing this type of story you don't troll your work and end this suddenly without more development. It doesn't matter if it's good or sad: there will be more development and it will make sense. 

And in GOT he referenced it, and I think it means something. I think it will become more romantic. What won't happen is that Sansa stops thinking about him and marries someone else out of a sudden, for instance.

[OldGimletEye]

8 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Because he likes to play with everyone's expectations, and the best way to do that is to write a typical set-up, but end it with an atypical punchline.

Is this the theory of the "opposite of what you will expect will happen"?

So it's your prediction that Dany's fleet sinks and she drowns and never makes it to Westeros?

Is it your prediction that Jon dies and never fights the Others?

Is it your prediction that the true hero of the story will be Cersei?

Was it your prediction that the Boltons would ultimately prevail?

Was it your prediction that Dany would never take control of the Dothraki?

Was it your prediction that Tyrion would never meet up with Dany?

Was it your prediction that Dany would never leave Mereen?

[ThePukwudgie]

6 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Is this the theory of the "opposite of what you will expect will happen"?

So it's your prediction that Dany's fleet sinks and she drowns and never makes it to Westeros?

Is it your prediction that Jon dies and never fights the Others?

Is it your prediction that the true hero of the story will be Cersei?

Was it your prediction that the Boltons would ultimately prevail?

Was it your prediction that Dany would never take control of the Dothraki?

Was it your prediction that Tyrion would never meet up with Dany?

Was it your prediction that Dany would never leave Mereen?

Are those tropes? Though I do think Dany will die just short of reaching the iron throne.

[OldGimletEye]

2 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Are those tropes? Though I do think Dany will die just short of reaching the iron throne.

Oh, so your logic only applies if the subject matter in question is according to you is a "trope".

Seems like your trying to shift the argument here, now that I've pointed out the basic flaw in your reasoning.

[ThePukwudgie]

Just now, OldGimletEye said:

Oh, so your logic only applies if the subject matter in question is according to you is a "trope".

Seems like your trying to shift the argument here, now that I've pointed out the basic flaw in your reasoning.

Pretty sure I've used the word 'trope' multiple times by now. I fail to see how I'm moving the goal post.

[OldGimletEye]

11 minutes ago, ThePukwudgie said:

Pretty sure I've used the word 'trope' multiple times by now. I fail to see how I'm moving the goal post.

Here is what you wrote:

Quote

Because he likes to play with everyone's expectations, and the best way to do that is to write a typical set-up, but end it with an atypical punchline.

Certainly there is no mention of tropes as being the distinguishing factor. That might be what you meant. But, it's not what you wrote. 

Now, here is a question: Was the Starks beating the Boltons a trope? The trope of the good guys beating the bad guys. And if so, your prediction was what?

Is the story of an exiled princess returning to her homeland a trope? Why or why not? And if so, your prediction was what?

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Darksky said:

Why would Martin have two cliches of the same kind in his story? Jaime x Brienne and Sansa x Sandor as BatB, Isn't that overkill? Isn't he known for not being a predictable trope lover? Or maybe his trope breaking prowess is just greatly exaggerated. He is not an innovative, creative writer. Fancy that.

So yeah on that belief, I say he'd totally have two BatB instances in his story.

 

I partially agree. Having two exactly Beauty and The Beast stories might be cliche. That's why I think the ending of at least one of them won't be the same as the known one from TbatB. 

However, let's take into account that those two stories don't follow exactly the same patterns that batB. They are based on this. 

Moreover, we can also consider that "expecting the opposite" or "being predictable" is a tricky sentence, since two different people can expect different things. 

Quote

I still maintain there will be little to no romance in the remaining 13 episodes. There's just not enough time and besides I've noticed that sex/romance/nudity have been on decline since season 3. I remember, back in the day, there were many regular complaints about all the sex and nudity happening. Not an episode went by without tits and ass.

Perhaps. In my humble opinion, the fact that they wanted to end the show so quickly might be because they are not wanting to invest a lot in romance. However, they have established different potential romances and they stated that their original plan was always about 70 hours, so who knows if that means the romances are still on their agenda. Anyway, I agree that it will be secondary to the story.

Quote

There is not a single sex scene in season 6 and only two (short and not explicit) in season 5 (excluding Ramsay-Sansa as it was forced and off-camera). The last two seasons barely have any nudity. It's curious to me since HBO shows are known for the excessive explicit content. GOT focuses on other aspects now.

But they don't necessarily have to include sex. I mean, if JB ends up happening, I think there will be sex in the books. But maybe in the show they only want to show romance, before that happens. They might imply that a couple ends together, without using sex scenes.

But I think the main point is that people complained about the "use of sex" in GoT. I mean, the majority of the scenes were just sex, without romance, and women were prostitutes. I think it could change with a more romantic aspect.