Anton Martell Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 Wow, I NEVER noticed that there was a political machination between the Westerling wedding. I didn't know her mother conspired. Damn, I'm in the middle of a reread, and it's really necessary apparently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 11 hours ago, Tonberry said: It's tough to explain quickly, and I don't have the time to grab all the quotes. Basically, Tywin tells Tyrion that the women on Jeyne's side of the family have maegi heritage. Half of Lannisport went to Jeyne's grandmother in order to get healing and love potions. Those two things are associated. Robb needed healing for his arrow wound, and the implication is that he received a love potion as well. Some people ignore the love potion hints because they like the narrative to feel real and less magical, but it's pretty willful to ignore GRRM's subtle hinting. Furthermore, I do read Robb's change of heart to be a strong departure from his previous personality. The whole "hormone" and "teenager" talk is pretty dismissive of the man's maturity up until this point. No one notices the love potion the first time around because the hints are so subtle. Consequently we judge Robb from our surface-level reading (he's a slave to honor, hormones, etc). It's difficult to admit that we misjudged him after we catch the love potion hint and admit that his poor decision making was either not his own or at least greatly influenced by forces outside of his control. My problem with this theory isn't so much the magical aspects as it is the treatment of characters. GRRM always makes his characters fully responsible for the (often bad( decisions that they make. They may be adversely affected by emotion, honor, the plotting and machinations of others, a lack of relevant knowledge, or simply being presented by a situation with no good choices. However, their actions are their own. A love potion essentially makes Robb not responsible for his own actions. From a reader's point of view, it lets him off the hook. And, at least as major characters go, nobody gets off the hook that easily. Plus, magic isn't something that is all that easy or reliable in GRRM's world either I think that Jeyne, encouraged by her mother, was ambitious and fell in love with Robb. She was able to take advantage of a moment of weakness and get him into bed when he found out about his brothers' deaths. And I don't know about his maturity. He has a tendency to be a little headstrong and is inexperienced in the ways of the world. And marrying to save someone else's honor is something I can easily imagine Ned's eldest son doing. So, no love potion. Just Jeyne being her mother's daughter and Robb being his father's son. And Tywin and Sybell helping push things along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Anton Martell said: Wow, I NEVER noticed that there was a political machination between the Westerling wedding. I didn't know her mother conspired. Damn, I'm in the middle of a reread, and it's really necessary apparently! Most of the info about the political aspects of it is in Jaime's final chapter in AFFC, where he is at Riverrun. But there were indications in ASOS, with Tyrion's conversation with Tywin and his own thoughts on the issue, plus Grey Wind's hostility to members of the Westerling family, especially Jeyne's uncle Rolph Spicer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonberry Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 8 hours ago, Nevets said: My problem with this theory isn't so much the magical aspects as it is the treatment of characters. GRRM always makes his characters fully responsible for the (often bad( decisions that they make. They may be adversely affected by emotion, honor, the plotting and machinations of others, a lack of relevant knowledge, or simply being presented by a situation with no good choices. However, their actions are their own. A love potion essentially makes Robb not responsible for his own actions. From a reader's point of view, it lets him off the hook. And, at least as major characters go, nobody gets off the hook that easily. Plus, magic isn't something that is all that easy or reliable in GRRM's world either I think that Jeyne, encouraged by her mother, was ambitious and fell in love with Robb. She was able to take advantage of a moment of weakness and get him into bed when he found out about his brothers' deaths. And I don't know about his maturity. He has a tendency to be a little headstrong and is inexperienced in the ways of the world. And marrying to save someone else's honor is something I can easily imagine Ned's eldest son doing. So, no love potion. Just Jeyne being her mother's daughter and Robb being his father's son. And Tywin and Sybell helping push things along. You're first two paragraphs only say that the love potion can't be real because you don't want it to be. I'll ignore those. The third paragraph presents a plausible scenario and one that I think GRRM wants the surface-level reader to believe in. Certainly all of the characters in the story think that's what happened. However, why would GRRM put in the love potion detail in association with healing in a chapter taking place right after Robb's visit to the Crag? Do you really think it's a meaningless coincidence? That's something I can't bring myself to believe, even if I were to agree with you that a love potion cheapens the plot, which it doesn't. And Robb is not all that inexperienced in the ways of the world either. I mean, he's not Roose Bolton, but he's more savvy than your average commander. GRRM even sets up a parallel between Tywin and Robb's leadership capabilities by having them conduct their meetings in identical ways for identical purposes. And is Robb headstrong? Maybe a little. Sometimes? He got frustrated with his mother giving him council he disagreed with, if that's what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Martell Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 On 30 juillet 2016 at 4:16 PM, Nevets said: Most of the info about the political aspects of it is in Jaime's final chapter in AFFC, where he is at Riverrun. But there were indications in ASOS, with Tyrion's conversation with Tywin and his own thoughts on the issue, plus Grey Wind's hostility to members of the Westerling family, especially Jeyne's uncle Rolph Spicer. Will re-read it soon (I'm ending my aCoK reread). I've seen people tear to shred the theory though with some compelling arguments. I'll wait for my re-read to see what I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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