The Importance of Numbers

[Reine]

On 9.12.2016 at 11:30 PM, ravenous reader said:

Hi @Reine and welcome!  

The number 9, which to the best of my knowledge no-one has 'solved' yet -- although it's a sacred number in the tradition of  Norse mythology upon which GRRM is basing much of his archetypal backbone -- is frequently reiterated in a number of contexts, of which I'll touch on a few.  It's also a multiple of the sacred number three: thus 3 times 3 = 9.

Thank you, I didn't even think of 9 because that is clearly Tolkiens number for me, why would he use that? But of course he uses it...

So 9 in our world is interesting too: in the celtic mythology it is the number for the whole universe, in chinese mythology/ numerology it's the number of dragons (magic and might) and nine springs represent the realm of death.

On 9.12.2016 at 11:30 PM, ravenous reader said:

Your or anyone else's thoughts on these quotes, particularly on why GRRM is relating the crown of the King(s) of Winter to the circle of weirwoods in the Haunted Forest, would be appreciated.  Notice how the bronze circle and black iron spikes recapitulate the tree circle.  Bronze is the maester's link for astronomy (which may be significant in light of prevailing speculations that the human greenseers may have orchestrated the explosion of a moon triggering a cataclysmic meteor shower ushering in the last Long Night).  Black iron is the link for ravenry (again with implications for the greenseers, Children of the forest, 'old gods' forces).  Regular iron would be the link for warcraft.  The runes inscribed on the circle indicate some magical spells are woven into the crown, and by analogy the weirwood circle representing the council or coterie of greenseers.  

Above all, circles are associated with GRRM's meditations on the nature of time, inevitability, and where that leaves us in terms of possible windows of redemption.

I always read the bronze/ iron crown as a nod to the Bronze Age and Iron Age, a way to show how old these traditions are.

On 9.12.2016 at 11:30 PM, ravenous reader said:

Finally, note several unsettling allusions to human sacrifice -- the moon as a sickle (bronze sickles were used to sacrifice people to trees), the iron spikes evoking disembodied heads of beheaded enemies impaled on spikes like scarecrows, and in the last passage the child in the middle of the sacred circle.  I believe the word 'ragged' is not used here willy-nilly, but represents a deeper 'code' if you like underlying GRRM's mechanism whereby he constructs the narrative.  Tracing the word 'ragged' we may see it has a connection to human sacrifice, e.g. the deserter beheaded in the opening execution in AGOT preceding the gift of the direwolves is described as 'ragged.'  'Ragged' is also an anagram of 'dagger,' in addition to being rooted etymologically in the word 'rag' meaning 'wolf' from which the word 'Ragnarok' is derived, as @Blue Tiger has recently drawn to my attention.  So, we have multiple allusions to some kind of upcoming cataclysmic world-ending event together with human sacrifice.  Why is that connected specifically to the number 9, I can't yet say!

Christ died in the ninth hour... But these numbers don't really translate one to one, it seems like the same numbers are important but the meaning is shifted (dragons: from 9 to 3; gods: from 3 to seven; etc.). Human sacrifice was a response to natural disaster, if a king could'nt guarantee a good harvest you kill him to appease the gods.

Ragnarök isn't just the death of an old world but the birth of a new one too, 2 humans survive and a old god is reborn/ a new god rises and it is unclear if Evil survives or not (Tolkien choose the interpretation that Evil won't survive).

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 hours ago, Reine said:

If you use your thumb to count, and count not the fingers but the phalanges you can count up to 12 with one hand (24 with both hands).

That would mean you can count to 15, you'd have to exclude the thumb for it to only be 12.

[Reine]

4 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

That would mean you can count to 15, you'd have to exclude the thumb for it to only be 12.

Like I said you need the thumb to count. The other 4 fingers have each 3 visible phalanges, 3x4=12 (or dozen).

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, Reine said:

Like I said you need the thumb to count. The other 4 fingers have each 3 visible phalanges, 3x4=12 (or dozen).

I don't understand what you are saying, how are you using the thumb to count if you are excluding it.

[Reine]

16 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I don't understand what you are saying, how are you using the thumb to count if you are excluding it.

http://omluut-send-super.tumblr.com/

The first post, ASOIAF won't show my pictures...

[Isobel Harper]

Four and five in relation to a hand:

Davos lost four fingers for smuggling but was left a thumb.  Stannis also "took away" four sons and left Davos himself when he lost on the Blackwater.  Davos lost his sons and his finger bones during the battle. 

House Velaryon lost all four of its ships on the Blackwater, and was left with a boy heir.  (Or to continue the theme of survivors of the battle, Aurane Waters.)

The river was set ablaze with wildfire, so we're left with "fiery hand" imagery. 

Increments of five and ten can symbolize a hand or hands, respectively.  The fight beneath the Tower of Joy is another 4/5 grouping though doubled.  Ten people fight (3 KG and Ned with 6 men).  8 men die and 2 live.