Nipples on a breastplate

[Nihlus]

GRRM really needs to finish that book.

[Seams]

On 9/27/2017 at 1:30 PM, Lollygag said:

Hey, you might be right!

Going along with the mother's milk, there seems to a pattern of change and/or rebirth in the quotes below. As for the Jon passage, the dragon glass weapons lead to Sam being reborn as Sam the Slayer, a character earlier determined to be useless in battle who unexpectedly turned out to be quite useful in a battle situation.

The Kingsguard

Jorah Mormont

Foreshadowing for Brienne and her much-mentioned shield? Brienne serves as Jaime's right hand as she has Oathkeeper.

Pycelle - we know that he was of the few who was truly loyal to the Lannisters and was very competent to that ends. Also, maybe foreshadowing that Qyburn is going to tinker with Pycelle?

These are some fabulous excerpts! Thank you for putting this together. I had never thought to connect Ser Jorah to the Cleganes, but I think this shows the author's intent to do so. Not only are Gregor / Ser Robert Strong and Sad Jorah / Fighting Jorah both transformed in the same ADwD, but Jorah gets a burned cheek to match Sandor. Great catch. This parallel will be fun to watch.

I tried to look at iron rings in an earlier post. I suspect they symbolize the "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme" idea behind GRRM's storytelling. I think there are iron rings in Ned's dungeon cell in the Red Keep and a couple other key locations and moments. Of course, the maester's chains are rings made of rings, too. So the iron rings on Ser Jorah's armor are probably important symbols.

And I think the connection to Brienne is part of the same parallel - now it appears that Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime each have a new champion, and they are all signaled to us by the "nipples on a breastplate" metaphor.

You cited this passage:

AFFC Jaime II

He supposed he might try holding the lance with his left hand, but that would mean shifting his shield to his right arm. In a tilt, a man's foe was always to the left. A shield on his right arm would prove about as useful as nipples on his breastplate. No, my jousting days are done, he thought as he dismounted . . . but all the same, he stopped to watch awhile.

There is an interesting comparison to this passage, after Tyrion has sex with Shae for the first time:

He could feel the softness of her breasts pressed against his arm as she lay beside him That was a good feeling. A song filled his head. Soflty, quietly, he began to whistle. (AGoT, Tyrion VIII)

It seems as if Jaime is rejecting the idea of breasts pressed against his arm (in the form of a breastplate) and Tyrion is savoring the sensation. The song Tyrion is remembering in the excerpt is probably the one he associates with Tysha.

If the useless breastplate metaphor is used in association with personal champions of the various Lannisters (Ser Gregor, Ser Jorah, Brienne), the use of this phrase with Pycelle becomes extra interesting. Was Pycelle a champion for Tywin, and we didn't know it? I have speculated that Pycelle was using alchemy to make gold - the Casterly Rock supply may have run out years ago, so Pycelle was propping up an otherwise useless House Lannister with fake gold. But maybe there is another angle to the story. The stench of Tywin's body may have been the clue, here. I think Cersei also described body fluids running out from the joints in the armor in which Tywin's body is displayed. What if Tywin has been dead for a long time, and Pycelle was just keeping him alive like Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr?

Lots of Interesting possibilities to consider with this rich metaphor.

19 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

I always thought when GRRM was talking about this he was talking about how nurturing and war are mutually exclusive.

In this context, the wolf trying to nurse from Robb doesn't work not just because Robb is a dude, but because he is the "Grey Wind" that brings war and death. Robb doesn't nurture anybody; he's a destroyer.

And dragonglass knives are debatably useless because even if they kill Others, they don't - on the surface - help keep you warm or feed you.

Here are a few other situations where somebody compares someone or something to nipples on a breastplate being useless in a practical sense, when the story might be editorializing a bit that what is really useless is war and death without nurturing:

• Cersei thinks of Pycelle this way at Tywin's funeral, because Pycelle made Tywin smile and Tywin never smiled
• After he loses his hand, Jaime thinks of putting a shield on his arm and riding into battle this way, when he doesn't think riding into battle anymore will do him any good
• Tyrion thinks of Demon Jorah this way after he finds out Daenerys is married and loses his hope for being with her
• Cersei thinks this about the Kingsguard when raging about the Queenmaker affair - thinking about how she is raging at Tyrion instead of spending time with her children
• When Tyrion is getting ready for the Battle of Fire, he finds Demon Jorah - this time literally with pierced nipples on his breastplate.

It is interesting that Demon Jorah incapable of fighting and Demon Jorah totally decked out and ready to fight are both associated with nipples on breastplates. This suggests that it is not his willingness or unwillingness to fight that is being commented on regarding what is "useless," but rather than his romantic days are behind him and he is now fully an agent of death.

I really like this. Early on, I thought GRRM's main point in the series was the horror of war - Ned can't even believe that he has to make the point that it is wrong to kill children. Your post reaffirms that idea (although I've subsequently realized that the "war is bad" theme is one among many diverse and complex themes).

It's interesting to note that Ser Jorah took away the "monstrous" baby Rhaego, delivered of Dany by Mirri Maz Duur. Maesters -  probably including Pycelle - are the obstetricians of Westeros, attending at the births of noble babies. There may be something here about that nurturing / warfare juxtaposition. Worth keeping an eye out, anyway.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 9/28/2017 at 4:25 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

show is show, it creeps in inconspicuously @Dorian Martell's son

It do 

[Lollygag]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:12 AM, Seams said:

These are some fabulous excerpts! Thank you for putting this together. I had never thought to connect Ser Jorah to the Cleganes, but I think this shows the author's intent to do so. Not only are Gregor / Ser Robert Strong and Sad Jorah / Fighting Jorah both transformed in the same ADwD, but Jorah gets a burned cheek to match Sandor. Great catch. This parallel will be fun to watch.

I tried to look at iron rings in an earlier post. I suspect they symbolize the "history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme" idea behind GRRM's storytelling. I think there are iron rings in Ned's dungeon cell in the Red Keep and a couple other key locations and moments. Of course, the maester's chains are rings made of rings, too. So the iron rings on Ser Jorah's armor are probably important symbols.

And I think the connection to Brienne is part of the same parallel - now it appears that Cersei, Tyrion and Jaime each have a new champion, and they are all signaled to us by the "nipples on a breastplate" metaphor.

You cited this passage:

AFFC Jaime II

He supposed he might try holding the lance with his left hand, but that would mean shifting his shield to his right arm. In a tilt, a man's foe was always to the left. A shield on his right arm would prove about as useful as nipples on his breastplate. No, my jousting days are done, he thought as he dismounted . . . but all the same, he stopped to watch awhile.

There is an interesting comparison to this passage, after Tyrion has sex with Shae for the first time:

He could feel the softness of her breasts pressed against his arm as she lay beside him That was a good feeling. A song filled his head. Soflty, quietly, he began to whistle. (AGoT, Tyrion VIII)

It seems as if Jaime is rejecting the idea of breasts pressed against his arm (in the form of a breastplate) and Tyrion is savoring the sensation. The song Tyrion is remembering in the excerpt is probably the one he associates with Tysha.

If the useless breastplate metaphor is used in association with personal champions of the various Lannisters (Ser Gregor, Ser Jorah, Brienne), the use of this phrase with Pycelle becomes extra interesting. Was Pycelle a champion for Tywin, and we didn't know it? I have speculated that Pycelle was using alchemy to make gold - the Casterly Rock supply may have run out years ago, so Pycelle was propping up an otherwise useless House Lannister with fake gold. But maybe there is another angle to the story. The stench of Tywin's body may have been the clue, here. I think Cersei also described body fluids running out from the joints in the armor in which Tywin's body is displayed. What if Tywin has been dead for a long time, and Pycelle was just keeping him alive like Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr?

Lots of Interesting possibilities to consider with this rich metaphor.

I really like this. Early on, I thought GRRM's main point in the series was the horror of war - Ned can't even believe that he has to make the point that it is wrong to kill children. Your post reaffirms that idea (although I've subsequently realized that the "war is bad" theme is one among many diverse and complex themes).

It's interesting to note that Ser Jorah took away the "monstrous" baby Rhaego, delivered of Dany by Mirri Maz Duur. Maesters -  probably including Pycelle - are the obstetricians of Westeros, attending at the births of noble babies. There may be something here about that nurturing / warfare juxtaposition. Worth keeping an eye out, anyway.

DOH! You picked up on the Clegane references when I didn’t at all—I just noticed that Jorah went into a cart as useless as nipples on a breastplate only to emerge shortly after from a wagon as a not-useless-at-all demon-looking sellsword. Funny because I've often thought of how Jorah follows Dany like a dog. He's even hairy and growls in this passage. As Jorah descends to hell (being thrown into the cart as dead more or less to arise from a wagon as a demon), we see Sandor at the Quiet Isle, a stand-in of sorts for peace/heaven. 

And of course this plays right into my crackpot theory of the sword swapping triangle between Jaime (has Ice which belongs to Jon and serves Catelyn Stark), Jon (has Longclaw which belongs to Jorah and serves Jeor Mormont) and Jorah (will get Brightroar which belongs to Jaime as the VS steel sword that Dany promised and will serve Tyrion Lannister). If Brightroar has been altered by the fires of Valyria, we might get an interesting Sandor/flaming sword parallel (or swapped arcs?) through Jorah. He’s already burned with a demon face 

———————

Iron rings make me think of the iron cuffs and iron swords used to keep wights from rising. Symbolically, Jorah can’t rise as a wight if his nipples are pierced by iron and his new association to fire via the branding/burning and his demon face also ties into that. Joer wanted his son to swear to the NW and if Jorah has finally given up hope for love and family, maybe that’s something similar.

His “lobstered” hand makes me think of Victarion.

————————-

The passage also made me wonder if Tywin relied more heavily on Pycelle than we think.

———————

Jamie rejects Cersei and he has never been with another woman, so it may well be a rejection of that sort of comfort for him at least for now and from Cersei. Brienne is described as rather flat-chested so it may be that Jamie is rejecting Cersei's brand of comfort for Brienne's. Brienne is a warrior, but she's one who has sworn to protect a mother and her two girls making Brienne a mother figure and  a protector figure which is where Cersei falls woefully short. Perhaps a conflict between love (comfort) and duty with a built-in resolution? Ned and Cat loved each other deeply, but they didn't let that interfere with their duty. I see another parallel might be in the works for Jamie and Brienne.

I really like your idea about nipples on a breast plate marking Lannister champions (how would the Sam/dragonglass one work out I wonder - Tyrek, Lancel, Myrcella, Tommen, Gerion?) Tywin/Pycelle, Tyrion/Jorah, Cersei/Gregor, Joff/Sandor, and Jamie/Brienne may all be variations on a theme. 

I do think nurturing (ice and preservation) and war (fire and destruction) are aspects of a major theme here. The answer isn’t to swing to wild and monstrous extremes but to achieve balance, even if that’s extremely difficult to achieve. War is horrible and should be avoided but noble as it is, as a theme I'm not really sure how useful it is in itself. Do we really expect to see an end to all wars in our real-life human futures? Probably not. A lot of the qualities which lead to war are our best qualities turned inside-out so I'm not sure how we escape them completely. The more useful theme for me is how to keep the pendulum from swinging too far to the war extreme when war is inevitable. Basically, how to keep our humanity in a war and not let it turn us into monsters. This was how I saw the conflict between Ned and Robert. 

Just as the complete avoidance of war is unrealistic, I think the complete avoidance of love/comfort/nurture in turn will be shown (or has already been shown) to be equally unrealistic. We'll be shown through various characters and various situations what the right balance should be.  

AGOT Jon VI

"A man of the Night's Watch lives his life for the realm. Not for a king, nor a lord, nor the honor of this house or that house, neither for gold nor glory nor a woman's love, but for the realm, and all the people in it. A man of the Night's Watch takes no wife and fathers no sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor. And you are the only sons we shall ever know.

AGOT Jon VIII

"So they will not love," the old man answered, "for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty." 

Some more interesting passages from Jamie about the topic of love and war. 

ASOS Jamie VII

The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts. Robert was welcome to him.

ASOS Jamie VII

And now he's dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I'll give her one . . . and this time I'll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

ASOS Jamie X

When she was gone Jaime took her advice, fumbling one-handed at his laces. He felt a bone-deep ache in his phantom fingers. I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war.

 

 

[Seams]

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

And of course this plays right into my crackpot theory of the sword swapping triangle . . .

Iron rings make me think of the iron cuffs and iron swords used to keep wights from rising. Symbolically, Jorah can’t rise as a wight if his nipples are pierced by iron and his new association to fire via the branding/burning and his demon face also ties into that. Joer wanted his son to swear to the NW and if Jorah has finally given up hope for love and family, maybe that’s something similar.

His “lobstered” hand makes me think of Victarion.

. . .

I really like your idea about nipples on a breast plate marking Lannister champions (how would the Sam/dragonglass one work out I wonder - Tyrek, Lancel, Myrcella, Tommen, Gerion?) Tywin/Pycelle, Tyrion/Jorah, Cersei/Gregor, Joff/Sandor, and Jamie/Brienne may all be variations on a theme. 

I do think nurturing (ice and preservation) and war (fire and destruction) are aspects of a major theme here. The answer isn’t to swing to wild and monstrous extremes but to achieve balance, even if that’s extremely difficult to achieve. . . .  Basically, how to keep our humanity in a war and not let it turn us into monsters. This was how I saw the conflict between Ned and Robert. 

Just as the complete avoidance of war is unrealistic, I think the complete avoidance of love/comfort/nurture in turn will be shown (or has already been shown) to be equally unrealistic. We'll be shown through various characters and various situations what the right balance should be. 

ASOS Jamie VII

The boy had been a squalling pink thing who demanded too much of Cersei's time, Cersei's love, and Cersei's breasts. Robert was welcome to him.

ASOS Jamie VII

And now he's dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose. He had a second son, after all, and seed enough for many more. If Cersei wants another child I'll give her one . . . and this time I'll hold him, and the Others take those who do not like it. Robert was rotting in his grave, and Jaime was sick of lies.

I found the old post where I had considered the "iron ring" (and iron circle) symbolism. If you wade through other posts in that thread, you'll see that someone makes the point that iron is a component of human blood - something we cannot live without. But swords also "drink" blood, so that might bring the discussion back to your idea about swapping swords. Maybe, instead of the usual human-to-human marriages that link houses (and result in new bloodlines), the giving or taking of a sword represents a different kind of "marriage" that results in a blood tie between houses.

I also found a passage where GRRM refers to "iron circles" representing the endless cycle of night and day.

A lobstered hand for Ser Jorah surely refers back to the crab feast at Castle Black where Tyrion challenges Alliser Thorne to a duel using crab forks. Jeor Mormont notably cracks a crab claw with his bare fist at that gathering. There is probably also an allusion to the lobstered gauntlet under the archmaester's bed: it is the hiding place for the key that Pate gives to (we assume) the Faceless Man. And the metal hand, naturally, brings us back to Jaime Lannister . . .

One of those comments on the other thread points out that Ser Jorah put Tyrion in shacles, so that was Jorah's turn to use the iron rings on a captive. Maybe the iron rings on Ser Jorah represent the changing of roles: Tyrion is taking charge of Jorah, keeping him alive in spite of his lack of effort and affect on his own behalf. Maybe the iron rings on his breastplate represent shackles Tyrion has put on him.

While enjoying the burning of the Tower of the Hand, Cersei has a vivid memory of breastfeeding Joffrey:

It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse. (AFfC, Cersei III)

Then again, she also dreams of Tyrion maiming her breasts:

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife. (AFfC, Cersei IX)

And this is interesting. After walking naked from Baelor's Sept and realizing that her body is aging, Cersei becomes Joffrey in the arms of her new champion:

Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground, lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe. A giant, thought Cersei, dizzy, as he carried her with great strides toward the gatehouse. She had heard that giants could still be found in the godless wild beyond the Wall. That is just a tale. Am I dreaming? (ADwD, Cersei II)

Cersei didn't have a breastplate because she wasn't allowed to learn swordplay alongside her twin. But what I see in these passages is a woman whose power resides in her nipples - she raises an heir to the throne, she loses that heir because (she believes) Tyrion killed Joffrey, and then she is empowered anew by this armored giant. This all fits with your idea about the balance between war and nurturing, I think. Cersei goes over the mistakes that led to the Starks taking up arms against the Lannisters, and she is not going to make similar mistakes (she believes). But maybe she is now the baby, suckling at the breastplate (= war nipples) of Ser Robert Strong. We know that Ser Gregor was one of the worst butchers in the series, so what does it mean that Cersei is his baby?

Joffrey is frequently referred to as a monster (including in the passage you cite from Jaime). But Dany's babies are dragons and Catelyn's babies are wargs, so it seems that many children might be monsters of some kind. Maybe it's a matter of knowing when to use your inner monster and when to suppress it?