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Lollygag

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  1. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    It would be more clever writing to in the end find out that Illyrio and Varys were such wonderfully perfect wordsmiths as to go decades and never have need of an “outright” lie to any of the great many people they've encountered over said decades. But at a character level, at a realistic level, it’s impossible to do what these characters do for this amount of time, deceiving and manipulating so many at a time and for decades in some cases, and not “outright” lie sometimes. And lying is the whole point. It’s the Game of Thrones. KL is a bunch of liars and schemers and climbers. Lying is part of the Game. It would be better plot writing if they didn’t lie, but it would be grotesquely awful and unrealistic character writing if they didn’t. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/homo-consumericus/201111/how-often-do-people-lie-in-their-daily-lives
  2. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I've seen this said around before and have never seen anything to convince me of it. It can't both be true that Varys supports the Targs/Blackfyres/dragons/pyromancers and he has such hatred of magic as he claims to Tyrion. Also, the author keeps bring up the eunuch's voice dropping knowing exactly what that implies. And in my opinion, that is a complete lie. By that logic, anyone can claim to babysit Aegon for the briefest time and validly claim to be his parent as he is his parent in a temporary sense. Illyrio knew what Tyrion would believe would be untrue and that's what he set him up to believe. A lie is distinguished by the intent to deceive. It's what distinguishes it from simply relaying something which is not true by some sort of honest mistake with no intent to deceive. I highly doubt anyone finding out the truth behind Varys' and Illyrio's words will feel anything but deceived and betrayed and that is the intent of a lie. lie intransitive verb 1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive She was lying when she said she didn't break the vase. He lied about his past experience. 2 : to create a false or misleading impression Statistics sometimes lie. The mirror never lies. ****Adding**** If personal definitions of lies differ, I think GRRM is very, very clear as to his own definition of it. Varys and Illyrio lie. AGOT Sansa I Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true. AGOT Sansa II Sandor Clegane snarled at her. "Spare me your empty little compliments, girl … and your ser's. I am no knight. I spit on them and their vows. My brother is a knight. Did you see him ride today?" "Yes," Sansa whispered, trembling. "He was …" "Gallant?" the Hound finished. He was mocking her, she realized. "No one could withstand him," she managed at last, proud of herself. It was no lie. ACOK Sansa II "I like dogs better than knights. My father's father was kennelmaster at the Rock. One autumn year, Lord Tytos came between a lioness and her prey. The lioness didn't give a shit that she was Lannister's own sigil. Bitch tore into my lord's horse and would have done for my lord too, but my grandfather came up with the hounds. Three of his dogs died running her off. My grandfather lost a leg, so Lannister paid him for it with lands and a towerhouse, and took his son to squire. The three dogs on our banner are the three that died, in the yellow of autumn grass. A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face." He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. "And that's more than little birds can do, isn't it? I never got my song." ACOK Sansa II Sandor Clegane snorted. "Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here . . . and every one better than you." AFFC Sansa II "I will." He cuddled close and laid his head between her breasts. "Alayne? Are you my mother now?" "I suppose I am," she said. If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it.
  3. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I disagree that it's not important. It falls apart at the character level at the most simple level and that's such an important part of the novels. For all of the hullabaloo about fantasy, games, magic and whatnot, it's actually the character writing which makes it all work and endure. Joff killed Bran for Robert, but when Tyrion consoles Joff on his loss in KL, Joff forgets Robert is dead. Also, Joff is consistently portrayed as an idiot. Nope. Lots of possibilities, but Mance was at Winterfell at the time, he needed the Wildlings south of the Wall, the Starks were a huge, huge problem for that, he sees that helping Joff to do what Joff wanted to do will help to accomplish getting the Starks south and away from the Wall. As Mance is at Winterfell for mysterious reasons, this would be quite spoilery, hence why we only got part of the story.
  4. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    It's the statue that Illyrio has in his courtyard. He claims it's of himself when he was younger, but many believe it to be Aegon. There's loads of Northern imagery around it for some reason. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151843-the-illyrioaegon-thing/&do=findComment&comment=8264991 The reason I lean towards it being Aegon is that he also has Northern imagery around him. @sweetsunray just pointed out more that I hadn't noticed in Haldon who is grey-eyed and icy. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151843-the-illyrioaegon-thing/&do=findComment&comment=8258965
  5. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Agree totally about Tyrion and it's why I love his rereads. But we get the same through Dany and Arya. Illyrio lies and we're reminded often to not trust him. And just because Tyrion misses some things some times, he also catches onto some things which others don't. What Tyrion misses is often closely connected to his biases. For Varys, when you sign on with a family and put them in power, you don't get to choose who takes the throne and who doesn't, nor is it easy to toss them aside if someone who wasn't into woowoo stuff starts developing an interest. If you throw in with Targs/Blackfyres/dragons, you throw in with magic. You can't buy a bag of M&Ms with just the colors you like, you have to buy the whole thing. The dragons and eggs as material things doesn't work for me. All throughout the series, we have dragons tied to magic and Quaithe says the dragons coming back has strengthened other magic, too. It seems very unlikely that any of this was lost on Varys. And that doesn't explain his going along with Aerys and his pyromancer thing. Varys should have blown his top when Aerys named one as Hand, nor does it explain why Varys works with them still. The possibility of Illyrio as Aegon's dad is served by the little boy's clothes, Illyrio wanting to see him and being disappointed and getting him his favorite candy. In more subtle ways, we get it with parallels between Myrcella and Aegon, and the sacrifice imagery and kinslaying talk which comes with it. The statue is unnecessary for this purpose. It also doesn't explain the weird details surrounding the statue which at least at this point in the story, is without purpose.
  6. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Now, how does Illyrio lie about Varys insofar Tyrion knows (since Tyrion believes Varys to be from Myr, not even knowing about Lys)? Heck, Illyrio even expands on Varys, after he mentioned the statue. The overall lie in that chapter to Tyrion is about "sending you as a gift to help Dany conquer Westeros and Griff is just Griff who has nothing to do with me." Edited 27 minutes ago by sweetsunray This part was added after I started to reply. I don’t agree with this interpretation. If you’re right, it’s bad writing as I and most take this for a lie on Illyrio’s part. Add in Tyrion's skepticism of Illyrio in general and here, Varys' backstory not adding up, Dany portraying Illyrio as slimy and skeevy, seeing Illyrio all plotty through Arya, it points to Illyrio being caught in a lie/mistake and trying to cover it up.
  7. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    For signs that a character is lying, we may get Arbor Gold, the character may observe something suspicious (Bran doesn't quite trust the CotF), or the character may question the other character outright. Tyrion tells himself that trusting Varys is a bad idea and then we find out that when Tyrion asks Varys where LF has disappeared to in the Reach, Varys gives a total BS answer suggesting maybe he's dead by the roadside which Tyrion doesn't buy at all. Varys knew and wasn't talking for some reason. Illyrio himself admits that he screwed it up. If Varys went to Pentos later, by Varys' own words, he can be hardly be described as a green boy at that point. ADWD Tyrion II "We were young together, two green boys in Pentos." "Varys came from Myr." "So he did. I met him not long after he arrived, one step ahead of the slavers. By day he slept in the sewers, by night he prowled the rooftops like a cat. I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade. Perhaps you chanced to glimpse the statue by my pool? Pytho Malanon carved that when I was six-and-ten. A lovely thing, though now I weep to see it." ACOK Tyrion X "The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse. … "Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead." I don't believe Varys' story about castration. The author wouldn't repeatedly bring up an eunuch's voice dropping across different POVs if the intent wasn't for the reader to question if he was really a eunuch. And Varys' proclaimed deep hatred of sorcery, to the extent he wishes death on all associated with magic doesn't gel with Varys' loyalty to the super-magical Targs with their magical dragons, and magical rites to hatch dragons, and pyromancers, and Summerhall shenanigans, and Aegon marrying Dany who's so tied to magic. I have no idea about Varys at this point. Varys hatred of magic and his working for Targs/Blackfyres can't both be true. Illyrio may be Aegon's father, but it's not necessary. People can get attached to kids without the blood connection and we see that elsewhere in the story. I can't explain the statue, but there's a lot about it that's oddly weird and detailed and unnecessary to the story unless there's more we don't know which is yet another reason why I won't think we've seen the last of Illyrio or other characters like him without more info. Just because something doesn't look to serve a purpose now, doesn't mean it won't be shown to have one later, and things which have unusual and inexplicable detail are a sign that there's likely more to come, otherwise, why choose to add it?
  8. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    GRRM often warns us somehow when a character is lying and right before the spiel about the statue, Tyrion catches Illyrio lying about Varys' home town. Illyrio changes the subject to the statue after being caught. Also, lots of Stark symbolism around Aegon and there's loads of Starkiness about that statue making them consistent. I'm not saying I'm sure about it (a small mystery never answered?), but I think there are solid reasons to believe it's really Aegon.
  9. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I think we were only given part of the story on Bran with the rest to come later. The explanation for Jon's death was straight forward and satisfactory in itself, but for Bran, we got speculation, interweaving, assumptions...parts are still being hidden.
  10. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    On the issue of Illyrio and Aegon and that being left as such a large part of the reader's understanding of Illyrio, this doesn't work for me. Illyrio eats cherries here, possibly from the cherry trees surrounding what we assume to be Aegon's statue. Cherries are symbolic of blood and in Japan, specifically Samurai warrior blood. Illyrio is fully aware that he is popping Aegon's warrior cherry and what may come of it. ADWD Tyrion I Tyrion was beginning to suspect that a certain freckled washerwoman knew more of the Common Speech than she pretended. "My niece Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens. And I have half a mind to make her a queen." Illyrio smiled as his serving men spooned out bowls of black cherries in sweet cream for them both. "What has this poor child done to you that you would wish her dead?" "Even a kinslayer is not required to slay all his kin," said Tyrion, wounded. "Queen her, I said. Not kill her." The cheesemonger spooned up cherries. "In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death's-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her. Dorne might rise for Myrcella, but Dorne alone is not enough. If you are as clever as our friend insists, you know this." Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. "Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least." I don't doubt that Illyrio has genuine feelings for Aegon and would truly mourn him. But Illyrio knows exactly what he's doing here and is aware of the choice and its consequences. Aegon's death wouldn't be unexpected.
  11. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I'm not basing it on forum members beyond what works as a well-written story. Plot and character must make sense at a basic level and leaving Illyrio or any such character like him unexplained leaves a major problem at that basic level. GRRM has provided answers in the past for the workings of the Game and the characters involved in it in the series proper, though not always in full. I don't think we'll be left completely hanging now with Illyrio or the other characters operating the plot machine. Like I said, I’m ok with some things remaining mysterious and it’s actually one of the things I like about the series. But I have to distinguish between a little mystery and a pothole plothole which ruins the suspension of my car my appreciation and understanding because there are *HUGE* gaps in the road story. Gotta leave enough road to carry the reader through, especially casual readers which are most readers of the series. I don't really compare mysteries which exist in ASOIAF which is a real story with a real plot and real characters with the mysteries in the so-called "fake" histories. They're written differently with a different context, one with first hand observation which is experienced by the reader along with the character and other is recalling the past, and GRRM has commented on the problems which come with that, and not just in using the name "fake" histories.
  12. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    It seems almost universally assumed that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and Aegon is his son, but there's little actual evidence for this unless I've missed it. Also, Illyrio has been around since the beginning of the series which isn't the case with the Blackfyres. Either Illyrio was retconned to be a Blackfyre, or he's something else. Mysteries are only interesting if we know enough to form a picture that we can't quite make out which draws us in. It doesn't work if all we have is closer to a void. At this rate, it seems most people are quite confused as to what he's about as it just doesn't add up. Some characters like Bloodraven and Aegon remaining mysterious would work. We know enough about BR (the real mystery with him seems to lie more with the CotF anyhow) and Aegon isn't exactly the most interesting character and we know what his role will be. But the likes of Illyrio, LF, Varys, Mance, Doran and others who are something like the Wizard behind the curtain, the big cogs in the machine, their demise without any explanation would amount to plot holes. Just my impression from the forum, but a lot of folks are going to upset if Illyrio and something of his role in the Game doesn't get some better explanation.
  13. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    Illyrio/Varys is one of the big unanswered questions Game-wise going back to the very beginning of the series. I'm not one who thinks we'll get every little thing answered, but Illyrio seems unlikely to be one of those things. It'd be like knocking off LF leaving the explanation that he was just greedy or Varys being knocked off leaving the reader with the motivation that he was about some sort of unspecified Targ/Blackfyre whatever thing without bothering to flesh any of that out. Dany's, Arya's and Tyrion's chapters with him all seem to be leading somewhere. He's just written with too much work to be left hanging. Unlike with Ned, Cat, Robb, Tywin and other big character deaths, this wouldn't feel organic to the story.
  14. Lollygag

    Illyrio's fate foreshadowed

    I've not read F&B so thanks for bringing up this Lord Rego fellow. Crackpot surely, but it’s speculated in the link below that this may be a hint as to what's already happened to Illyrio. Gerion Lannister was perhaps the corsair who killed the real Illyrio and took his place (he wears a ruby and follows R’hllor). This Lord Rego also has a lot of Lannister symbols like pigs/sacrifice, gold, rings (hair in curls/ringlets, whores, Tywin’s gold ring eyes) coins, fat like Tytos, and implied shit. It was formed sort of by consensus with @Lady Barbrey and @Alexis-something-Rose making the corsair connection and gets hashed out over several posts.
  15. Lollygag

    Will Jon be Dany's heir

    GRRM seems fond of succession clusterf***s where characters are given solid reason for doing whatever the hell they want. I always gravitate toward the side of what makes more of a muddy mess than what clears things up in his case. See Robb's will and the accusations of Joff not being a Baratheon as big examples, but there are lots more to be found. I doubt it will be settled with any certainty, but all of this wouldn't have been brought up repeatedly if it wasn't going to impact the plot and characters' decisions in some way. Those who want to support whomever they wish will cite believing this or not as one of the reasons. And if Aerys did disinherit Rhaegar and it could be strongly proven, the dude was as mad as they get. There's a reason wills start out with declarations of being sound of mind. The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II Once safely returned to King's Landing, His Grace refused to leave the Red Keep for any cause and remained a virtual prisoner in his own castle for the next four years, during which time he grew ever more wary of those around him, Tywin Lannister in particular. His suspicions extended even to his own son and heir. Prince Rhaegar, he was convinced, had conspired with Tywin Lannister to have him slain at Duskendale. They had planned to storm the town walls so that Lord Darklyn would put him to death, opening the way for Rhaegar to mount the Iron Throne and marry Lord Tywin's daughter. … When Prince Rhaegar and his new wife chose to take up residence on Dragonstone instead of the Red Keep, rumors flew thick and fast across the Seven Kingdoms. Some claimed that the crown prince was planning to depose his father and seize the Iron Throne for himself, whilst others said that King Aerys meant to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys heir in his place. Nor did the birth of King Aerys's first grandchild, a girl named Rhaenys, born on Dragonstone in 280 AC, do aught to reconcile father and son. When Prince Rhaegar returned to the Red Keep to present his daughter to his own mother and father, Queen Rhaella embraced the babe warmly, but King Aerys refused to touch or hold the child and complained that she "smells Dornish." The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring Had any whiff of proof come into their hands to show that Prince Rhaegar was conspiring against his father, King Aerys's loyalists would most certainly have used it to bring about the prince's downfall. Indeed, certain of the king's men had even gone so far as to suggest that Aerys should disinherit his "disloyal" son, and name his younger brother heir to the Iron Throne in his stead. Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, and his eventual ascension would certainly mean a regency, wherein they themselves would rule as regents. … Above all, King Aerys II was suspicious: suspicious of his own son and heir, Prince Rhaegar; suspicious of his host, Lord Whent; suspicious of every lord and knight who had come to Harrenhal to compete...and even more suspicious of those who chose to absent themselves, the most notable of whom was his former Hand, Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock.
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