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Lollygag

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  1. Lollygag

    Did LF encourage Joffrey to beat Sansa?

    I agree the resentment might well be unconscious. Actually, I'm not sure he has a great understanding of his feelings about Cat in general. There's an odd frozen-in-time quality to those feelings, like on one level, he never quite developed any further. I would guess that he was hoping to console her as a widow, but he knew she loved him so it was still a cruel thing to do. But yeah, it probably made sense to him. I didn't mean that LF was physically torturing Lysa, I meant emotionally torturing her. And no, killing Jon was directly about Cat, but if you really love someone, you don't do things which will cause them distress especially at that level. LF knew Jon's death would cause a lot of turmoil for Cat yet he did it anyhow. I agree he may not actually be plotting to kill SR. LF's story doesn't add up as he tells it to Sansa so I'm not sure what he's really up to. But I don't think LF would hold back from killing him if it suited him so I'm going with what we've been told right now. As for the Red Wedding, I should have explained that further. I noticed something recently which has me questioning some of the goings on during the planning of the RW, Joff's wedding, Tyrion's marriage to Sansa, LF marrying Lysa...all of that. In ASOS Tyrion III, it looks like a lot of these things are tied together in one plan. ASOS Tyrion III Ser Kevan cleared his throat. "I would sooner have Petyr Baelish ruling the Eyrie than any of Lady Lysa's other suitors. Yohn Royce, Lyn Corbray, Horton Redfort . . . these are dangerous men, each in his own way. And proud. Littlefinger may be clever, but he has neither high birth nor skill at arms. The lords of the Vale will never accept such as their liege." He looked to his brother. When Lord Tywin nodded, he continued. "And there is this—Lord Petyr continues to demonstrate his loyalty. Only yesterday he brought us word of a Tyrell plot to spirit Sansa Stark off to Highgarden for a 'visit,' and there marry her to Lord Mace's eldest son, Willas." In the previous chapter ASOS Tyrion II, we have Tywin writing what many believe are the letters setting up the RW. I think the passage above is a heavy hint that LF may have been more involved in these things than we think. Regardless, LF did not send word in warning nor aid afterward, nor express any emotion in the slightest over the RW, nor any help to Edmure. Theory on my part as to the extent of LF's possible involvement in the RW, but the lack of action before or after and the lack of emotion point to conscious or unconscious resentment for me.
  2. Lollygag

    Did LF encourage Joffrey to beat Sansa?

    Destroying Ned and having some involvement in the end of her children depending on the situation, torturing and killing her sister, killing her brother-in-law, plotting to kill their son and not stopping the Red Wedding leading to the ruination of the Tullys says to me that there was a mixture of idealization and also deep resentment. It's quite common to see these two feelings mixed when it comes to obsession and it's not uncommon for people to murder those with whom they are obsessed. Getting into the prostitute business indicates misogyny on LF's part and this might well stem from resentment over Catelyn. I would say that taking the last thing that Cat loves (assuming the rest of her family are dead and if LF has his way they will be) and turning her into his creature is not unlike revenge and also he gains the simultaneous satisfaction of gaining the object of one's obsession, or as he puts it, improves the deal by upgrading to the more beautiful version.
  3. Lollygag

    Did LF encourage Joffrey to beat Sansa?

    I very much agree. And I'll add that LF is teaching Sansa the Game though we can't say why or to what ends yet. AGOT Sansa who was incredibly naive and believed in songs, fairytales, and happily ever afters would be of no use to LF if it is indeed important to him to have Sansa play some role in whatever he's planning. She would need to be cynical, suspicious and crafty for that. Also, a small and unheroic man like LF has no place in AGOT Sansa's world of songs and heroes. However, he does gain standing if her beloved knights and handsome prince had her beaten on a regular basis. LF now compares much more favorably than before she was beaten. Basically, there is no AFFC plotline with AGOT Sansa. Something had to change.
  4. Lollygag

    Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

    You can't really call someone a "looks bigot" when they fantasize about the Hound. AGOT Sansa II The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face. The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.
  5. Lollygag

    Songs that Make Us Think of A Song of Ice and Fire

    Continuing on with A Game of Thrones: The Disco Musical, after the opener with the Others/Wymar & Co. to Night Fever by the Bee Gees (see above), we go into the character introduction/Winterfell opener. Winterfell opener/Character Intro—We are Family by Sister Sledge. The Starks are doing a happy family dance number in sequined armor & gowns. The Targs crash and Viserys starts grinding on Dany. Ned and Cat try to cover the eyes of the little ones. Jon is watching Viserys and Dany out of the corner of his eye. He glances at Sansa and Arya. Whatever Targs can do, Lannisters can do, so they crash too with Robert’s entourage. Jaime grinds on Cersei behind Robert’s back. Bran sees by accident and falls. Bran’s fall & the 3EC: Oops Upside Your Head by the Gap Band / Fly Robin Fly by the Silver Convention Maester Luwin & the Maesters to Bran: Superstition by Stevie Wonder This is a great, great, great performance by Stevie Wonder and no less, it's on Sesame Street. When you believe in things that you don't understand, Then you suffer, Superstition ain't the way, yeh, yeh
  6. Lollygag

    Did LF encourage Joffrey to beat Sansa?

    I think it's possible. It's just too perfect that Sansa gets beat up by her idealized white knights who are supposed to be the living embodiment of her songs on orders from her perfect, handsome prince. It groomed Sansa for exactly what LF had planned. I don't think LF had to worry about it going overboard in terms of force used. Joff was angry, not the KG. The KG and probably all properly trained knights are supposed to know how to train little kids in combat and we had such a scenario come up for the KG training Tommen in the story.
  7. Lollygag

    Why do people hate Sansa?

    Read between the lines. As early as ACOK Sansa I, she's been so regularly beaten by almost of the KG as to have them all figured out. That's a lot of beatings. And Joff is restrained by her being a hostage only by the barest degree. ACOK Sansa I When they told him that Robb had been proclaimed King in the North, his rage had been a fearsome thing, and he had sent Ser Boros to beat her. "Shall we go?" Ser Arys offered his arm and she let him lead her from her chamber. If she must have one of the Kingsguard dogging her steps, Sansa preferred that it be him. Ser Boros was short-tempered, Ser Meryn cold, and Ser Mandon's strange dead eyes made her uneasy, while Ser Preston treated her like a lackwit child. Arys Oakheart was courteous, and would talk to her cordially. Once he even objected when Joffrey commanded him to hit her. He did hit her in the end, but not hard as Ser Meryn or Ser Boros might have, and at least he had argued. The others obeyed without question . . . except for the Hound, but Joff never asked the Hound to punish her. He used the other five for that. ACOK Sansa III What could it mean? Should she take it to the queen to prove that she was being good? Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased.
  8. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    I'm trying to respect your wishes to stay on strict topic so I'm no longer contributing to this thread. But I'm not understanding the thought process behind a possible conspiracy or any number of other things brought up in the thread not having any direct impact on the aftermath Jon's stabbing.
  9. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    I used to see it that way until I came upon the maybe foreshadowing posted upthread along with some other things and reread the scene with that in mind. There's just no indication that anyone has seen anything thus what can they react to? Marsh & Wyck will likely slip back into the crowd, so all there is is Jon on the ground. Who do they lash out against? And while those who are trying to get the situation under control are hyped up on adrenaline thus more apt to just react if they do have to something to react to, most of the crowd looks to be the opposite: they are in shock from Wun-Wun and Patrek and shock runs contrary to reacting.
  10. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    Even if there does turn out to be witnesses, there has to be a lot of witnesses for a large crowd to form a consensus and act on it and it seems that ship has already sailed as we get the very end of the attack in ADWD. Even if there were a few witnesses who didn’t yell/couldn’t be heard, didn’t intervene/couldn’t intervene, it becomes a he said/she said situation where people will believe what they want. And Bowen Marsh, the mild-mannered NW traditionalist steward accountant going off the rails and stabbing the LC is a tough sell. It turns into a bit of a trial sort of situation where people make their accusations and cases and everyone decides who to believe. No doubt Marsh will point his own fingers and the wildlings are not popular.
  11. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    I do agree that this isn't one of those clear answers but maybe in a different way. I'd be inclined to agree more *if* we had any indication whatsoever that anyone has actually witnessed the stabbing and as of the end of ADWD, there's zero signs of the attack having been witnessed- no yelling, no intervening, no joining in. Rather difficult for me to believe that but there it is. All Marsh and Wyck have to do is blend back into the crowd and then when someone else finds Jon, point the finger elsewhere. ACOK Tyrion I "In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet. ACOK Tyrion II Varys covered his mouth with his hand. "You are very cruel to say so. One last matter. Lady Tanda gave a small supper last night. I have the menu and the guest list for your inspection. When the wine was poured, Lord Gyles rose to lift a cup to the king, and Ser Balon Swann was heard to remark, 'We'll need three cups for that.' Many laughed . . ." The King was Joff, the rich man was Tywin and Tyrion who was acting while Tywin was at war, and Cersei was being compared to a goddess during these times. At CB, we had Jon who was “King” of the Wall, Stannis who was rich in men, and of course our priest is Mel. What happens in the immediate aftermath of Jon’s stabbing may continue this triad formation of the “King” in name, the one with the money/resources and the one who inspires following in form of a priest(ess) or god(ess).
  12. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    As the ranking member of the NW at CB, that would be Bowen Marsh. Marsh has been treated as #2 throughout ADWD.
  13. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    Same here. So I decided to dig around a bit and found this: At the Guadalajara Book Festival, GRRM reported: Thanks for this. I'm sure I recall correctly that she was to only be a one-off because everyone perceived her as too all-powerful and too evil and this needed corrected. But my source must have been bad or GRRM has since changed his mind. As a POV for any post-attack battle, she still poses problems for any situation which shows any complexity. I don't recall reading where she knows the names of the regular wildlings to be able to recount any such action in any detail. Likewise the Northerners. I have to think she knows all of the Queensmen though. And of course my mind is still unchanged as to whether there will be any battle of significance at all.
  14. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    I don't think the Wildlings really care about the Boltons or the political situation. I think they just want to be safe and live the way they're used to living. If Mance went about acting out of character (beating the crap out of Jon for example which seems unlikely for Rattleshirt) and went around to everyone like, "hey, wanna see my new ruby from that weird red witch that I'm hanging out with a lot?" then he may have sewn some seeds of doubt among the wildlings. But this is a stretch for me so I don't know. I still have to go with Mance being the reason for their enthusiasm. Following Tormund (I have questions about that in itself as Tormund seems tied more to Jon than Mance) would seem to give credit to the wildlings believing Mance is alive for me. It still doesn't account for that level of unquestioning enthusiasm and not going "whaaaaa?" when Ramsey brought up Mance and spearwives. I can't find where it was said that Mel was a one-off, but I'm bad at finding those things. I remember clearly being very disappointed by that, so take it as you will. Hopefully someone can find something to clear that up. This may not convince anyone, but I'm still going with Mel being a one-off and with GRRM's claiming no more new POVs/culling POVs, and Mel being in the same category as LF/Varys in that she knows too much to be a regular POV for the readers. So I still see a POV problem. He can change his mind, but it really sounds like he won't without very good reason and basing theories on unsure POVs isn't the strongest grounding. I think the wildling arc will be carried on through Jon/Ghost and wildlings going to Winterfell. All of this spins around for me: · The Jon/Marsh discussions along with Bowen’s rather developed character makes no sense if he’s to die here. Thorne wanting Jon dead needed no such build-up. Too much time and detail went into this for Marsh to just get knocked off here. · I don’t see how RLJ, KitN becomes relevant if he stays at the Wall. I also don’t see any plausible way Jon survives the Others successfully attacking which means he needs to come away from the Wall and I think it will look a lot like how Sam & Co left the Wall. · It’s just too neat and tidy for me to deny that Bowen Marsh as the 999th LC makes Every.Wrong.Decision. in defending the Wall thus causing it to fall. And it’s already been all laid out for the reader clearing up the POV problem. · The text which I sited up thread also points in this direction. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
  15. Lollygag

    Meanwhile back at the Wall

    It is weird. Announcing that Mance was alive should have resulted in confusion but there was none in the wildlings' reaction. Their enthusiasm for going to Winterfell doesn't make sense unless they believe Mance is alive. Mance is up to ~something~ and this might be part of that. Unless someone can come up with a reason for the wildlings actually caring about Winterfell to that degree beyond Mance, I have to assume that Mance is the reason for the enthusiasm. ADWD Jon XII "No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written. The Shieldhall went mad. Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time. "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows. "The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?" The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard. I just don't see a big rise-up, partially because we now have a POV problem and also because in a crowd like that with the Wun-Wun/Patrek diversion, no one is going to understand just what went on. Wyck's not me hand's up movement indicates that Marsh will try to muddy the waters and with such a large crowd, it shouldn't be hard. Also, it seemed to me like Wun-Wun/Patrek pretty much shocked all kinds of things out of the crowd, including bloodlust. Adding: and as I said earlier, all of that back and forth between Marsh and Jon was unnecessarily if Marsh dies at this point.
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