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Lollygag

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  1. Lollygag

    Will Arya end up marrying Jon?

    I think I'm not quite following your point on Gendry. I believed Illyrio's account of Viserys for a long time but I’ve since taken a very close look at Illyrio and have changed my mind. We know that Tyrion has already caught Illyrio lying about Varys’ backstory (got his hometown wrong and Tyrion corrected him) and there are other lies which readers suspect from Illyrio to Tyrion for solid reasons. Below, we see where Viserys finds Dany unattractive due to her age and lack of development thus he questions Drago finding her attractive. Dany doesn't question this which makes me think that it meshes with what Dany knows of Viserys' opinion of her. We see directly through Dany that he sells her literally and eagerly in contrast to Illyrio’s recount that he was loath to give her up. Don’t overlook that Viserys equates sleeping with the barely legal Dany, flowered though she may be, with bestiality. Viserys also calls Dany "too skinny" here which is a much-used description for Arya. The comparison paints any sexual situation with a barely legal Arya in a very ugly light unless the boy is very close to her own age/level of development which is why I don't see Jon/Arya happening without Jon becoming a bit of a pedo. Why would Illyrio lie to Tyrion about Viserys? I'm not sure really. AGOT Daenerys I "Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured." "She's too skinny," Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, "Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?" "She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling. "I suppose," her brother said doubtfully. "The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …" "Best not suggest this to Khal Drogo," Illyrio said. Anger flashed in her brother's lilac eyes. "Do you take me for a fool?" … "Smile," Viserys whispered nervously, his hand falling to the hilt of his sword. "And stand up straight. Let him see that you have breasts. Gods know, you have little enough as is." … "I do," he said sharply. "We go home with an army, sweet sister. With Khal Drogo's army, that is how we go home. And if you must wed him and bed him for that, you will." He smiled at her. "I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army. Be grateful it is only Drogo. In time you may even learn to like him. Now dry your eyes. Illyrio is bringing him over, and he will not see you crying." AGOT Daenerys II Magister Illyrio laughed lightly through his forked beard, but Viserys did not so much as smile. "He can have her tomorrow, if he likes," her brother said. He glanced over at Dany, and she lowered her eyes. "So long as he pays the price." … The last sliver of sun vanished behind the high walls of Pentos to the west just then. Dany had lost all track of time. Khal Drogo commanded his bloodriders to bring forth his own horse, a lean red stallion. As the khal was saddling the horse, Viserys slid close to Dany on her silver, dug his fingers into her leg, and said, "Please him, sweet sister, or I swear, you will see the dragon wake as it has never woken before." AGOT Daenerys IV "He had better," Viserys said grimly. "I was promised a crown, and I mean to have it. The dragon is not mocked." Spying an obscene likeness of a woman with six breasts and a ferret's head, he rode off to inspect it more closely. AGOT Daenerys V Viserys laughed. "They can't kill us. They can't shed blood here in the sacred city … but I can." He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him." The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother. ADWD Tyrion II Along with the blood of Aegon the Unworthy, Maegor the Cruel, and Baelor the Befuddled. "Tell me more of her." The fat man grew pensive. "Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords." "That did not stop you selling her to Khal Drogo …" "Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the khal's friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning." "He sounds an utter fool." "Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different." He popped a roasted lark into his mouth and crunched it noisily, bones and all. "The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire. This dragon queen who wears her name is a true Targaryen. When I sent ships to bring her home, she turned toward Slaver's Bay. In a short span of days she conquered Astapor, made Yunkai bend the knee, and sacked Meereen. Mantarys will be next, if she marches west along the old Valyrian roads. If she comes by sea, well … her fleet must take on food and water at Volantis."
  2. Lollygag

    Will Arya end up marrying Jon?

    It’s possible though I strongly disagree with the claimed foreshadowing for this as it assumes its own conclusion in the interpretation among having other problems. Claiming that Jon died for Arya is a pretty drastic oversimplification of Jon’s motives which were quite complex. If it does come to pass, it’ll indicate that Jon is going super creep as the books have consistently cast a *very* jaundiced eye towards these sorts of age differences when the girl is Westeros’ version of the barely legal type and the man is not barely legal himself. Illyrio and Viserys both side-eyed Drago for wanting the just-flowered Dany and if those two of all people are side-eyeing you….Viserys found it incomprehensible that a man would want a girl who was that undeveloped regardless of being flowered. Gendry left Arya because his feelings became inappropriate to Arya’s age. Though Sansa had flowered, Tyrion refused to consummate the marriage, repeatedly called her a child, and called himself out on his attraction to Sansa as being messed up and refused to act on it at his own expense. Marg and Tommen are creepy when you think about it, but a lot of people don’t because there’s a double standard when the boy is the child. Rhaegar ditched his wife and kids for barely legal Lyanna. She became pregnant and died in childbirth with the heavy assumption that Lyanna’s underdeveloped and lean frame wasn’t ready for childbirth yet. There’s an instance in one of the TWOW chapters which continues this pattern. Lyn Corbray liking the barely legal boy look (no one seems to think he’s sleeping with actual children) isn’t meant to make him look good.
  3. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    Just what I thought as I was going down the rabbit hole. I'll take a wild and maybe (probably?) completely inaccurate stab. Just to be clear, it's not the twice her age that's so much a problem, it's more where it lands on the scale. 9/18 =/= 12/30 =/= 25/50. For one, I'm wondering if how vocal Sansans are is making them seem like a larger group than what they actually are. Two, Sandor reminds me a lot of Heathcliff-type romantic leads and this type is insanely popular in a lot of women's romantic arcs now-a-days across various genres. The bad-ass/angsty dude who is emotionally damaged but love/the woman can save him...it's definitely a thing. Think the Twilight and 50 Shades phenomena. This is my impression from reading other books, and I'm wondering how much bleed over there is into ASOIAF in this regard. I'd leave it to folks to speak for themselves, but absent that, this is what it looks like to me.
  4. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    Can't agree with the bolded more. As for the rest, I went through all of this on the Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance thread so I'm not rehashing it. Springwatch asked why some people viewed Tyrion as ok but Sandor as not, and that's my opinion; Tyrion took the age problem off the table for me by choosing to not act on any of those feelings. It's not a real marriage.
  5. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    Speaking only for myself though I doubt I'm the only one, but I think it's Tyrion because that's how I see the books going at least for the time being, not necessarily that I think they're ideal together. Tyrion took the age difference off the table for me when he objected to sleeping with her due to her age, kept calling her a child or a girl and ultimately let her decide to not sleep with him. Neither are under any illusion of there being anything romantic between them. It's not a real marriage at that point so they're not comparable to me.
  6. There's So Spake Martin and a google search for it which pulls up quite a bit on Stannis. I find it frustrating to use sometimes like so many search features, so . http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/ https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=006888510641072775866:vm4n1jrzsdy
  7. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    This is it but this shield applies to many, not just Sansa. Westeros and Essos are extremely patriarchal which poses problems writing dynamic characterizations of women and children. When you look closely, all of the women and children who are major characters have some degree of shield (it does fluctuate throughout their arc sometimes) from the strongest members of patriarchy in the form of authority figures like husbands, fathers, etc after the first book. It all serves to keep their arcs more dynamic and allow more freedom to make certain choices which the author needs them to make to develop their character for when they have more autonomy in their own right later on.
  8. Lollygag

    Wow, I never noticed that v.17

    AGOT Daenerys I "Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured." "She's too skinny," Viserys said. His hair, the same silver-blond as hers, had been pulled back tightly behind his head and fastened with a dragonbone brooch. It was a severe look that emphasized the hard, gaunt lines of his face. He rested his hand on the hilt of the sword that Illyrio had lent him, and said, "Are you sure that Khal Drogo likes his women this young?" "She has had her blood. She is old enough for the khal," Illyrio told him, not for the first time. "Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes … she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt, no doubt … and highborn, daughter of the old king, sister to the new, she cannot fail to entrance our Drogo." When he released her hand, Daenerys found herself trembling. "I suppose," her brother said doubtfully. "The savages have queer tastes. Boys, horses, sheep …" "Best not suggest this to Khal Drogo," Illyrio said. ADWD Tyrion II "Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the khal's friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to give her up. The night before the princess wed he tried to steal into her bed, insisting that if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead. Had I not taken the precaution of posting guards upon her door, Viserys might have undone years of planning."
  9. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Order_of_the_Green_Hand The wiki says so.
  10. Lollygag

    Poll: Answer 10 mysteries of asoiaf

    1. Where is Tysha? ADWD Tyrion XII: "… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours." 2. Who is Mystery Knight of Harrenhall (Laughing tree)? Lyanna 3. Who is the Harpy? Several including the Green Grace 4. Who is Jon's mother? I expect it to be Lyanna but would be thrilled if RLJ was a red herring 5. Real identity of Aegon VI? Power resides where people believe it resides/we'll never find out for sure. 6. Who killed Little Walder Frey? Not sure. 7. Who wrote Pink Letter? Stannis 8. Who is Coldhands? No one introduced into the books yet. 9. Who is Hooded man of Winterfell? I like Harwin, but not sure. 10. Who is Azor Ahai? A myth. 11. What happened to Tyrek Lannister? I don't know but I wonder that LF has him in hiding and he went willingly because LF promised to undo his marriage to the baby Lady Ermensande about which he was pretty ticked. 12. Where did Qyburn come from and what are his goals? I'm inclined to think he's just a crazy obsessed dude but it was a bit weird how much he kissed up to Jaime then Cersei. I toy with the idea that he works for the Boltons. Roose knows not to trust the Lannisters and I can imagine Roose and Qyburn having many candlelit conversations over, eh, really messed up stuff. 13. What is Littlefinger's full back story? I like the idea that he's the son of Ellyn Reyne (Alyane named for his mother and he tells her to seduce her way to power which was Ellyn's thing) but I'm not committed to this. 14. Where did Jaime and Brienne go? To Stoneheart. Jaime will sweet talk her again (he's getting good at this) and Stoneheart won't be able to pass up having the Lord of Casterly Rock working for her because who else is he if he's not KG anymore? 15. What happened to Gerion Lannister? Tywin exiled him for marrying a whore (he tells Tyrion that neither of his brothers married a whore when he has three brothers). He became Illyrio (looks like Tytos) and the Shrouded Lord. Illyrio/Tyrion/Gerion and Illyrio = sick river plus lots of other stuff. Inspiration was a labor of Hercules called Geryon and his Cattle where Geryon was three people attached at the stomach. ADWD Tyrion II: The cheesemonger smiled through his forked beard. "And Daenerys will give the exiles what Bittersteel and the Blackfyres never could. She will take them home." 16. Where is Benjen? Craster butchered and ate him.
  11. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    I wonder about Catelyn/Stoneheart and Jaime being sworn to her. Not a marriage, but an alliance. Jaime is carrying Ned's sword (via Brienne) and is sworn to find Arya and Sansa who Ned took to KL. When Jaime was presented to Catelyn, she was crushing on him and he appeared as a Ned parallel. Catelyn demands Ned but is given Jaime. And then they were flirting in that one chapter where the negotiated the hostage trade. From this post:
  12. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    This is a fun idea to explore. I agree that the Lannisters are overwhelming associated with the sun, but I've recently noticed that there’s a well-hidden undercurrent of a two-faced nature, a darker nature. Not sure how it measures in this equation? Tyrion himself is two-faced, having heterochromia with one eye green and the other black. Tywin scowls in life but smiles in death. Tytos the Laughing Lion’s joys turn to sorrows and he laughed no more. His son Gerion is another Laughing Lion with a daughter Joy. Some speculate and I agree that he is the Shrouded Lord (or a Shrouded Lord), Prince of Sorrows who gives boons to those who can make him laugh. Twins Jaime and Cersei are first presented to the reader as two sides of the same face: AGOT Tyrion I His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born. "The king has not slept at all," she told him. "He is with Lord Eddard. He has taken their sorrow deeply to heart." "He has a large heart, our Robert," Jaime said with a lazy smile. There was very little that Jaime took seriously. Tyrion knew that about his brother, and forgave it. During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything. ADWD Tyrion II That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. Here, Bran notes that Jaime’s face swims up at him rising through mist (implying from darkness) which links again to Shrouded Lord symbolism as it puts one in mind of the stonemen of the Rhoyne and its mists. But Jaime himself is shining and golden. The first Shrouded Lord Garin was kept in a gold cage. AGOT Bran III Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. "The things I do for love," it said. The bolded: maybe with the dark vein in the Lannisters, this hidden second face, maybe a Stark-Lannister marriage is more balanced than what it might appear at first? I'm unsure at this point myself... Adding, now that I think on it, it seems that Joanna was the light face to Tywin's darker face, hence why he smiles again in death. The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II Though Tywin Lannister was not a man given to public display, it is said that his love for his lady wife was deep and long-abiding. "Only Lady Joanna truly knows the man beneath the armor," Grand Maester Pycelle wrote the Citadel, "and all his smiles belong to her and her alone. I do avow that I have even observed her make him laugh, not once, but upon three separate occasions!"
  13. Lollygag

    Sansa and Cognitive Dissonance

    You're welcome. I've studied a bit here and there but I need to brush up. I've forgotten a lot.
  14. Lollygag

    Who will Sansa marry?

    Yeah, they're a very small sample size. But I don't overlook that whenever GRRM writes about them, that's how they turn up. And this fits in with that world were balance (beauty/intelligence/power/goodness/happiness, etc, you don't get them all) is such a significant thing. Even power-hungry Cersei admits that ambition is bad for happiness as she thinks something not unlike Jaime's suggestion to find a blacksmith or an innkeep: AFFC Cersei VIII When Maggy the Frog opened her eyes, Jeyne Farman gave a frightened squeak and fled the tent, plunging headlong back into the night. Plump stupid timid little Jeyne, pasty-faced and fat and scared of every shadow. She was the wise one, though. Jeyne lived on Fair Isle still. She had married one of her lord brother's bannermen and whelped a dozen children. Lord level isn't so bad, but even here when a character does get happiness, it's shortlived. Ned and Cat had to build up their marriage as it started rocky because of Jon so they only had some years before GRRM came along and smashed it. Likewise Tywin and Joanna. Minisa died in childbirth with Edmure, so whatever they were, they didn't last long either. I'm not sure about the others. I just know that when time is spent going into detail about these marriages, if there is any happiness (not just getting along), it's short-lived. Am I am pessimistic in general with this series. Ice zombie apocalypses/mass extinction events tend to have a bad effect on a person's happiness. I wouldn't mind being wrong here.
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