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Lollygag

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  1. About his motive to impress Robert, Robert would never know anyhow. Then we hear that he and Joff were never close, he cried as a baby when Robert held him, being beaten, and then there's this in the first Sansa chapter of ACOK: ACOK Sansa I "We share that view, sweet child." Tyrion turned to Sansa. "My lady, I am sorry for your losses. Truly, the gods are cruel." Sansa could not think of a word to say to him. How could he be sorry for her losses? Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey. "I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said. "What loss?" "Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you." "Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him." Bran's attempted murder and Jon Arryn's murder are often discussed in tandem, and while we got a clean and believable full explanation for Jon Arryn, we got nonsensical murk about Bran. He has Tyrion and Jaime chew on who tried to kill Bran and they often reach wrong conclusion and it all just never adds up. The attempted murder of Bran required some stealth and intelligence, especially in Winterfell with which Joff was unfamiliar and we're told over and over and over that Joff had massive impulse control issues and wasn't very smart at all. So, it was as just as GRRM said, but Joff had help and it's too spoilery to reveal yet. He was vocal about his hostility towards Bran so someone overhearing and offering to help is built into the story.
  2. Joff as the sole operator in Bran's attempted murder. But as GRRM himself undercuts this idea repeatedly and in different ways in the text, I can only think that Joff had help and it's too spoilery to give out the full story yet.
  3. It's in my past posts and I think it's clear. If your expectations after reading the books are that characters generally make well-adjusted and healthy life choices and the Westerosi people don't have a clear history of going off the rails when it comes to revenge for actions against their families, then we won't see eye to eye because I don't even see how we're reading the same books.
  4. I stand by what I say. Take it as you will. Jon's marching on Winterfell which is held by the Lannisters via the Boltons which he himself acknowledges is a violation of his oath. Revenge is part of the culture of this world and not exclusive to the highborn so I won't arbitrarily limit the examples. Robert's Rebellion was personally revenge-based, MMR, Ned deciding to target Tywin while sitting the IT, Sansa telling Cersei, Joffrey in general, Theon taking Winterfell, Viserys, Tyrion especially when it comes to his family - examples just for starters. Westeros' whole no justice system/revenge culture is very Medea. Is affection a requirement for a sense of family loyalty in this series? Nope. ADWD Jon I Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." His close-cropped beard lay like a shadow over his hollow cheeks. "See that you keep these tidings to yourself, Lord Snow. Karhold is with me, that is all the men need know. I will not have your brothers trading tales of how this child spat on me." Jon did what everyone eventually expected him to do - stick by the Starks. He was getting ready to march on Winterfell and take it back right before he got stabbed. Other times, he was barely held back from leaving the NW. He outright admits he's breaking his vows. Here's another stupid decision caused by revenge. I agree that Jon needed to deal with Ramsey, bu he screwed it up so bad he got stabbed because he couldn't hold himself back and think it out. ADWD Jon XIII "The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows. "The Night's Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless …" Jon paused. "… is there any man here who will come stand with me?" The roar was all he could have hoped for, the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. Soren Shieldbreaker was on his feet, the Wanderer as well. Toregg the Tall, Brogg, Harle the Huntsman and Harle the Handsome both, Ygon Oldfather, Blind Doss, even the Great Walrus. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard. Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. "Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that's how it's done. We'll make a wildling o' you yet, boy. Har!" ASOS Jon XII I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb. He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought. Yes, and Stannis isn't taking no for an answer. Jon only turned it down after agonizing because Stannis required him to cut down the heart tree and convert. If Stannis removes the requirement, the last Stark rides victorious in retaking Winterfell, Jon rationalizes it with mobilizing the North to reinforce the Wall... Not seriously. Also not relevant. Seriously never stopped anyone in these books. And it's always relevant. The first book is called A Game of Thrones and the entire series is called that because it's so relevant to the whole series. Robb and Cat had a big blowout how there was a big issue with no Stark kids or Jon left. Not quite sure what you mean here. It sounds like nonsense, but I might be misunderstanding something. Who is getting a lot and retribution, and who can get the whole north? Certainly not Alys and/or Sigorn Alys and Sigorn get Karhold from Alys' relatives. Sansa and Jon are the last two. Sansa's believed to be with Tyrion. Betray Jon. Add Winterfell and the North, too. Karhold, Winterfell and revenge. The Thenns are restored to their entitled place in the world, this time south of the Wall and the Karstarks are no longer in the Starks' shadows. ADWD Jon VII Jon's smile died. "I might if I could trust him. Sigorn blames me for his father's death, I fear. Worse, he was bred and trained to give orders, not to take them. Do not confuse the Thenns with free folk. Magnar means lord in the Old Tongue, I am told, but Styr was closer to a god to his people, and his son is cut from the same skin. I do not require men to kneel, but they do need to obey." Stated above just starter examples of revenge in Westeros. I'm not going to list them all, but Varys is widely believed to be motivated by revenge. Same with LF. Early Stannis was all about revenge and grudges. It's the whole point of Viserys and Dany taking back the IT. It's huge in the Dorne plot. Sandsnakes. Oberyn. Cleganes. How do you think the Lannisters and Tyrells are gonna turn out? Lysa killing Jon. Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion. Tywin repeatedly trying to kill Tyrion. Arya. Drago killing Viserys. I'll stop now. IMHO, all of these are stupid choices. Jaime, Sansa, Sam and Bran have it right. Just move on. As for Sigorn, here's another instance of not-smart revenge, he's quite devoted to his father, threatened to kill Jon in front of everyone, and Jon compares his feelings to the Lannisters killing Ned. Yes, he sounds like a raving vengeful lunatic especially as Jon explains to him that his father made his own bed. ADWD Jon V "Fight for you?" This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. "Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you." The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill." Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself. "Your father tried to kill us all," he reminded Sigorn. "The Magnar was a brave man, yet he failed. And if he had succeeded … who would hold the Wall?" He turned away from the Thenns. "Winterfell's walls were strong as well, but Winterfell stands in ruins today, burned and broken. A wall is only as good as the men defending it."
  5. If you make your point without being an ass about inferring how you think others see Jon, then it will get more traction. Saying "nah" isn't being an ass in the US. It's used all the time in everyday conversation. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nah Bold: not what I said. He's undermining his own work by expecting us to believe that both Alys and Signorn, without an alternative explanation presented, totally let go that Starks killed their fathers while at the same time having Jon seething about the exact same thing which is the norm in this tribalistic, revenge-obsessed world. What you're presenting is totally reasonable. Except if GRRM was writing characters who rolled like that, it would be a much shorter series. The theme Game of Thrones doesn't work if his characters are in a world they typically make the logical and healthy choice. I need solid text before I buy that Alys and Sigorn had any come to Jesus Jon moment as it's in contrast to the histories between the families, the culture of Westeros, and the context of ADWD. The whole North sees Jon as the next KitN, named Robb's heir. He's a Stark. Ned's clone. Batting for the Starks. No one threw a fuss when Ramsey Snow became Ramsey Bolton. Alys has a distant claim to the North being a Karstark. They're getting a lot as it is and retribution. If they play it right, they can get the North, too. Bold 2: Yes, this is totally true. But have you not read the books? Who makes great life-choices in this world? Sure they might be the rare exception in that they don't care much about revenge (Jaime, Sansa, Sam), but I highly doubt it.
  6. Tooting my own horn. Republicans are apparently already doing this stuff. https://www.salon.com/2020/05/07/woman-who-accused-dr-anthony-fauci-of-sexual-assault-now-claims-trump-supporters-paid-her-to-lie_partner/
  7. Make America Great Again Live and Let Die Trump 2020 would be great on hats and t-shirts.
  8. About a company's long-term interest... Libertarians especially, but people in general miss that long-term interests and short-term interests are often irreconcilable but the two are so often conflated. Humans are just not wired well to handle this conflict. It's definitely in my short term best interest to eat that cookie, but it's not in my long term interest to do so. I eat the cookie most of the time. We all do. We're in day-trader mentality and it's been incredibly destructive and made worse by Wall Street. Do what's in your best interest right now, we'll figure out the rest later, later, later. Trump is an example of this in the extreme. He says and does whatever gets him the best outcome in the moment as it's all about living to fight another day, perpetually kicking the can down the road. A lot of the right makes the mistake of conflating how small business works with how large businesses work and the rich right manipulates this perception to gain the support of those they're actually feeding off of. If you're Main Street, yes, it's not in your best interest long-term to harm your customers and this is how most small businesses must work to be successful. For large businesses, survival is on different terms. Your buddies can bail you out in a number of ways, either directly which is what's going on right now or shady back-room deals. You can buy out your competition, form mergers, manipulate monopolies, pay off politicians...If the bigwigs bankrupt a company, they've often worked it out so they still make out fine, sometimes even profiting personally, and move on to another venture and leave misery in their wake for anyone who isn't also in that club. The Democrats have a big opportunity to clarify to people that Main Street and Wall Street are not the same thing nor are their interests the same. They can split the Republican party with this. If they take the opportunity.
  9. Nah. GRRM inserts right in there what Jon feels about the Lannisters as a reminder. But somehow Alys and Sigorn are so forgiving? In this world where so much of the plot revolves around tribalism, rivalries, and retribution? The Game of Thrones? That's willful blindness when it comes to basic writing, characterization and themes. Again, ADWD Jon II "It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn." Jon read from the letter. ADWD Jon V "Fight for you?" This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. "Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you." The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill." Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself.
  10. I know that folks want to put a mask and cape on Jon and they want everyone in his arc to amplify that role, but I don't agree. Do we know for sure that Alys came straight from Karhold? We've been given some major hints to not trust her. Robb/KitN killed Alys' father, and Sigorn blames Jon for his father's death. To underscore that, Jon compares Signorn's feelings with Jon being asked to make common cause with the Lannisters who killed Ned. In this world, people don't forget that sort of thing and it shouldn't be brushed aside because we want to believe Jon is just that awesome. Then we see Sigorn, who deeply hates Jon, very taken with Alys. Why? Jon's glowing benevolence? Not for these books. More like the Starks are responsible for the death of both of their fathers and they found common cause. I don't trust what she says and she may have not come from Karhold. ASOS Catelyn III - Rickard remembers. Lord Rickard Karstark dipped his head stiffly. "For that much, I thank you. But for naught else." He had dressed for death in a long black wool surcoat emblazoned with the white sunburst of his House. "The blood of the First Men flows in my veins as much as yours, boy. You would do well to remember that. I was named for your grandfather. I raised my banners against King Aerys for your father, and against King Joffrey for you. At Oxcross and the Whispering Wood and in the Battle of the Camps, I rode beside you, and I stood with Lord Eddard on the Trident. We are kin, Stark and Karstark." "This kinship did not stop you from betraying me," Robb said. "And it will not save you now. Kneel, my lord." Lord Rickard had spoken truly, Catelyn knew. The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks had become Karstarks. "Old gods or new, it makes no matter," Lord Rickard told her son, "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer." "Kneel, traitor," Robb said again. "Or must I have them force your head onto the block?" Lord Karstark knelt. "The gods shall judge you, as you have judged me." He laid his head upon the block. "Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold." Robb lifted the heavy axe with both hands. "Here in sight of gods and men, I judge you guilty of murder and high treason. In mine own name I condemn you. With mine own hand I take your life. Would you speak a final word?" "Kill me, and be cursed. You are no king of mine." The axe crashed down. Heavy and well-honed, it killed at a single blow, but it took three to sever the man's head from his body, and by the time it was done both living and dead were drenched in blood. Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks. Gods forgive him, Catelyn prayed in silence. He is only a boy, and he had no other choice. Alys repeatedly flirts quite heavily with Jon during her time there which is a manipulation tactic. Like Rickard, she says "Karhold remembers" like secondary house words which underscore Rickard's words to Robb. ADWD Jon X "As you say." She touched his hand. "Karhold remembers." Red flag: Jon compares Sigorn's feelings about losing his father to Jon's feelings about the Lannisters killing Ned. But Sigorn and Alys forget so easily that that Robb and Jon are blamed for the death of both of their fathers? ADWD Jon II "It's death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn." Jon read from the letter. ADWD Jon V "Fight for you?" This voice was thickly accented. Sigorn, the young Magnar of Thenn, spoke the Common Tongue haltingly at best. "Not fight for you. Kill you better. Kill all you." The raven flapped its wings. "Kill, kill." Sigorn's father, the old Magnar, had been crushed beneath the falling stair during his attack on Castle Black. I would feel the same if someone asked me to make common cause with the Lannisters, Jon told himself. "Your father tried to kill us all," he reminded Sigorn. "The Magnar was a brave man, yet he failed. And if he had succeeded … who would hold the Wall?" He turned away from the Thenns. "Winterfell's walls were strong as well, but Winterfell stands in ruins today, burned and broken. A wall is only as good as the men defending it." Without explanation, Sigorn is deeply taken with Alys and she agrees to marry some rando wildling without objection. Why? ADWD Jon X The Magnar all but ripped the maiden's cloak from Alys's shoulders, but when he fastened her bride's cloak about her he was almost tender. As he leaned down to kiss her cheek, their breath mingled. The flames roared once again. The queen's men began to sing a song of praise. "Is it done?" Jon heard Satin whisper.
  11. I agree with it being paper-thin to say the least but Robb doesn't deny it and Catelyn acknowledges it as valid and even prays for Robb's forgiveness claiming he had no choice. Robert and Rhaegar being from another house would fit in well with the personal expectation of trust and loyalty not being there, either between the families or personally as they didn't care for each other. I'm also thinking of Stannis and Renly who tried to kill each other (Stannis succeeded) but kinslaying doesn't seem to factor in there, either. They sound like they were always at odds personally. I don't follow the history much, but I don't recall any competing claims being called kinslaying?
  12. Good question. I wonder that too and have been too lazy to try to work out a pattern of usage. It's more complex than it appears, but offhand, I wonder if both parties need to acknowledge the kinship. This would explain Rhaegar and Robert. If Rhaegar acknowledged it, it would legitimize any claim Robert should make, and if Robert acknowledged it, this would make him presumably a challenging claimant which was something he ultimately got stuck with but didn't want. But maybe that's wrong. Maybe they just use it when it's convenient. See below. Stark and Karstark are claimed as kin going back thousands of years in which case about anyone killing anyone in Westeros probably qualifies as kinslaying. The underlined seems to emphasize the mutual expectation of true loyalty, so maybe kin no matter how far gone + strong loyalty betrayed is the difference? The Targs and Baratheons haven't been close for a long time, I believe. ASOS Catelyn III Lord Rickard Karstark dipped his head stiffly. "For that much, I thank you. But for naught else." He had dressed for death in a long black wool surcoat emblazoned with the white sunburst of his House. "The blood of the First Men flows in my veins as much as yours, boy. You would do well to remember that. I was named for your grandfather. I raised my banners against King Aerys for your father, and against King Joffrey for you. At Oxcross and the Whispering Wood and in the Battle of the Camps, I rode beside you, and I stood with Lord Eddard on the Trident. We are kin, Stark and Karstark." "This kinship did not stop you from betraying me," Robb said. "And it will not save you now. Kneel, my lord." Lord Rickard had spoken truly, Catelyn knew. The Karstarks traced their descent to Karlon Stark, a younger son of Winterfell who had put down a rebel lord a thousand years ago, and been granted lands for his valor. The castle he built had been named Karl's Hold, but that soon became Karhold, and over the centuries the Karhold Starks had become Karstarks. "Old gods or new, it makes no matter," Lord Rickard told her son, "no man is so accursed as the kinslayer." "Kneel, traitor," Robb said again. "Or must I have them force your head onto the block?" Lord Karstark knelt. "The gods shall judge you, as you have judged me." He laid his head upon the block. "Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold." Robb lifted the heavy axe with both hands. "Here in sight of gods and men, I judge you guilty of murder and high treason. In mine own name I condemn you. With mine own hand I take your life. Would you speak a final word?" "Kill me, and be cursed. You are no king of mine." The axe crashed down. Heavy and well-honed, it killed at a single blow, but it took three to sever the man's head from his body, and by the time it was done both living and dead were drenched in blood. Robb flung the poleaxe down in disgust, and turned wordless to the heart tree. He stood shaking with his hands half-clenched and the rain running down his cheeks. Gods forgive him, Catelyn prayed in silence. He is only a boy, and he had no other choice. ----------- Adding - some sort of expectation of mutual loyalty mixed with Westeros' tribal society puts kinslaying more in line with kingslaying and guest right as sins of betrayals - Dante's lowest level of hell.
  13. Both Biden and Trump are dealing with allegations right now. There's quite a contrast. Biden https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/01/politics/joe-biden-letter-senate-tara-reade/index.html https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1256337960443641857 ---------------------------------------- Trump https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-cohen-back-behind-bars-as-early-prison-release-called-off/
  14. In an ideal world, it would be just about facts, but the alt-right is using these pieces to mind-warp their followers so there's a responsibility to be careful to not spread them. For the Trump-set, whataboutism (What about Bill/Hillary?) excuses Trump from anything and is a defense mechanism to keep them from processing actual facts. "Clinton" has been raised to the level of a Pavlovian, rabid hate response and with the Clintons being less relevant, they've tried and as yet been unable to find a replacement (Obama, AOC, Schiff, Pelosi in 2018 all failed to reach the effect of "Clinton"). They come up with conspiracy theories about how the Clintons are somehow still relevant and a threat (the Clintons are behind an Obama shadow government operating in DC). Talk radio and Fox News have been repeatedly raising the specter of Hillary as Pres or VP in a variety of absurd and baseless scenarios to keep their base riled up and from drifting to Biden, especially the blue-collar white male voters. The more they get Biden linked to Hillary in the minds of these voters, the better for them.
  15. The culture of that world is revenge. The Targs all about the "usurper's dogs" and retaking the throne. Lannisters are always repaying debts which is often used in a way which promises revenge. There's Balon's revenge on the Starks. It's everywhere. Ned went to KL because he and Cat thought the Lannisters were making a move on the IT. Text below. Ned was looking to find the truth about Jon Arryn. That's not revenge. By that standard Angela Lansbury was out for revenge every time she tried to solve a mystery. Ned was still alive when Robb went south. The purpose was to rescue him, Sansa and Arya. Ramsay threatened to attack the Wall over a baseless out of the blue accusation. Stoneheart is a completely different character, but the line of progression between the two was always there as Cat herself was blinded by the need to retaliate for the attempted murder of Bran at the expense of due diligence to the truth which we see all too often when someone loses a loved one to violence in rl. There's an overwhelming need to just get someone, even if the facts and motives are revealed to not line up or provide strong enough support for certainty. AGOT Catelyn VI "We learned that to our sorrow, Ser Donnel," Catelyn said. Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone; six brave men had died to bring her this far, and she could not even find it in her to weep for them. Even their names were fading.
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