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Lollygag

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  1. The rumors about Rohanne sacrificing her children remind me of Jaime's dream which essentially tells him that he's to be a sacrifice. I've been following up on your suggestion upthread about the Lannisters and the 12 Labors of Hercules. They largely align if one includes The Rhoynar and the Casterlys. But I think this one gives weight to your suggestion that the power dynamic at Craster's may have been more muddled than we think. Note that Bran and Bloodraven are both Prometheus figures. I wonder if the Golden Apples are Craster's twisted gold ring/bracelet. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html Adding to your thread on Tywin that the unabridged Westerlands chapter gives weight to the there being a long and established history of sorcery in the Westerlands. It's more about the symbols and qualities which they have in common seeming to point...somewhere. Ravenous Reader's find on the rivers strengthened that for me. White Harbor supposedly practices the old sacrifices in secret still. They used to hang entrails in the trees. The Manderlys who named after the Mander linked to the origins of Garth the Green who is linked to human sacrifice, and here we have the Manderlys practicing more human sacrifice with Frey pies. I'm not exactly sure how it ties together, but there's substantial connections. Nice find. A male birth/defecation seems to imply a rebirth with a negative quality. I like Tyrion, but he's a piece of shit after his rebirth. Time for a new rebirth for him and I think that's around the corner. Tyrion has Bronn kill the singer Symon Silver Tongue for his knowledge about Shae. Bronn then brings up that the Bowl of Brown has all kinds of meat in it hence the name Singer's Stew. So another connection to shit and human sacrifice and cannibalism in this case. I seem to remember Arya suspecting the bowls of brown to possibly have human meat. My mistake - I didn't mean to imply that the entire Rhoyne was foul/a cess pool. Seems to be just the part linked to Garin's Curse/Shrouded Lord/Stonemen. I've noticed that where shit isn't necessarily appropriate literally, general foulness is substituted. That Tyrion frequently mentions Tywin and the shitty Casterly Rock while there along with the Palace of Love and Sorrows (Tytos' joy turned to sorrow), I think the Rhoyne's shit link near the Bridge of Dream anyhow is quite strong though not literal. See Tywin's funeral in the OP. They're literally smelling corpse rot, but the connection to shit is fairly screaming. I think the HOTU gets the same treatment with the rot that's taking it over. It's interesting that the Rhoyne needed to be told about Aegon being Valyrian. It didn't sense his blood. The Rhoyne wouldn't care whether he was specifically Targ or not. Anything for more Ned, but that's quite sad. I also see Ned in here. Actually there are loads of Stark symbols around Aegon - not sure to what effect. Interesting to think about Ned gunning for Aegon... In AGOT, Tyrion has to hold the river (a Trident river, I forget which, maybe green current Green Fork?) from the Starks. Mists, reeds and currents recall the Rhoyne. Like Tyrion was charged with cleaning Casterly Rock, here is charged with keeping the river clean of death, or figurative shit if you will. Tyion getting tossed into the river seems connected to this somehow. Another type of Stonemen trying to get into the water... AGOT Tyrion VIII Clegane had no splendor about him; his armor was steel plate, dull grey, scarred by hard use and showing neither sigil nor ornament. He was pointing men into position with his blade, a two-handed greatsword that Ser Gregor waved about with one hand as a lesser man might wave a dagger. "Any man runs, I'll cut him down myself," he was roaring when he caught sight of Tyrion. "Imp! Take the left. Hold the river. If you can." The left of the left. To turn their flank, the Starks would need horses that could run on water. Tyrion led his men toward the riverbank. "Look," he shouted, pointing with his axe. "The river." A blanket of pale mist still clung to the surface of the water, the murky green current swirling past underneath. The shallows were muddy and choked with reeds. "That river is ours. Whatever happens, keep close to the water. Never lose sight of it. Let no enemy come between us and our river. If they dirty our waters, hack off their cocks and feed them to the fishes."
  2. There is a lot of switching back and forth between conqueror's right and blood right on this forum depending on who you support without realizing that blood right had to start with conqueror's right at one point.
  3. Lollygag

    LF, Sansa and the Vale

    I think Harrenhal is part of LF's plan which he is keeping very close to the chest. While LF is no doubt completely ok with the offer of Harrenhal, I think it's the God's Eye and the Isle of Faces that he really wants. I'm not sure why. Maybe the grey-green sentinel trees mentioned so often in the North and LF's grey-green eyes is a clue? Note how the CotF and Isle of Faces are vaguely alluded to when LF is offered Harrenhal. While LF is completely open about his plans for Robert, Harry, and Sansa getting both the Vale and Winterfell as the OP quoted, note how LF has to cycle through answers about Harrenhal finally having to resort to changing the subject when none of them are satisfactory for her. ADWD Bran II That was not Arya's voice, nor any child's. It was a woman's voice, high and sweet, with a strange music in it like none that he had ever heard and a sadness that he thought might break his heart. Bran squinted, to see her better. It was a girl, but smaller than Arya, her skin dappled like a doe's beneath a cloak of leaves. Her eyes were queer—large and liquid, gold and green, slitted like a cat's eyes. No one has eyes like that. Her hair was a tangle of brown and red and gold, autumn colors, with vines and twigs and withered flowers woven through it. ADWD Bran III Though the men of the Seven Kingdoms might call them the children of the forest, Leaf and her people were far from childlike. Little wise men of the forest would have been closer. They were small compared to men, as a wolf is smaller than a direwolf. That does not mean it is a pup. They had nut-brown skin, dappled like a deer's with paler spots, and large ears that could hear things that no man could hear. Their eyes were big too, great golden cat's eyes that could see down passages where a boy's eyes saw only blackness. Their hands had only three fingers and a thumb, with sharp black claws instead of nails. AGOT Bran VII "But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye. "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces. ACOK Tyrion IV "So," Lord Petyr continued after a pause, utterly unabashed, "what's in your pot for me?" "Harrenhal." It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter. Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored. "Then raze it to the ground and build anew to suit yourself. You'll have no lack of coin. I mean to make you liege lord of the Trident. These river lords have proven they cannot be trusted. Let them do you fealty for their lands." "Even the Tullys?" "If there are any Tullys left when we are done." Littlefinger looked like a boy who had just taken a furtive bite from a honeycomb. He was trying to watch for bees, but the honey was so sweet. "Harrenhal and all its lands and incomes," he mused. "With a stroke, you'd make me one of the greatest lords in the realm. Not that I'm ungrateful, my lord, but—why?" "You served my sister well in the matter of the succession." "As did Janos Slynt. On whom this same castle of Harrenhal was quite recently bestowed—only to be snatched away when he was no longer of use." Tyrion laughed. "You have me, my lord. What can I say? I need you to deliver the Lady Lysa. I did not need Janos Slynt." He gave a crooked shrug. "I'd sooner have you seated in Harrenhal than Renly seated on the Iron Throne. What could be plainer?" AFFC Alayne I "Oh, much of it, that's true. Not all, however. I am well loved in Gulltown, and have some lordly friends of mine own as well. Grafton, Lynderly, Lyonel Corbray . . . though I'll grant you, they are no match for the Lords Declarant. Still, where would you have us go, Alayne? Back to my mighty stronghold on the Fingers?" She had thought about that. "Joffrey gave you Harrenhal. You are lord in your own right there." "By title. I needed a great seat to marry Lysa, and the Lannisters were not about to grant me Casterly Rock." "Yes, but the castle is yours." "Ah, and what a castle it is. Cavernous halls and ruined towers, ghosts and draughts, ruinous to heat, impossible to garrison . . . and there's that small matter of a curse." "Curses are only in songs and stories." That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Or about the sellsword before him, whose limbs Ser Gregor removed a joint at a time? That one took the castle from Ser Amory Lorch, who received it from Lord Tywin. A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs . . . Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it." "Then give it to Lord Frey." Petyr laughed. "Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?" The mention of the queen's name made her stiffen. "She's not kind. She scares me. If she should learn where I am—" "—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." Petyr teased her with a little smile. "In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It's a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn. Now, don't you have some duties to perform?"
  4. Lollygag

    LF, Sansa and the Vale

    Sansa disappears, and suddenly LF turns up with a bastard daughter Sansa’s age, and Catelyn is very aware of LF’s interest in her and Sansa’s resemblance to her. Stoneheart is smart, and it’s unbelievable to me that Stoneheart isn’t investigating LF’s mysterious bastard daughter. LF is now the legal uncle of the Stark kids thus has legal claim to their guardianship in Edmure’s and the Blackfish’s absence. Where Sansa is concerned, throw Tyrion her husband over LF, and Jaime as Lord of Casterly Rock in there too. Jaime effectively resigned from the KG when he burned Cersei’s letter and releasing KG members when they no longer are able to perform was established with Barristan. Whether he realizes it yet or not, Jaime just became Lord of Casterly Rock. I don’t think Stoneheart could turn down having him working for her and he’s the only one who can claim Sansa from LF with any legal authority until Tyrion, Edmure, or the Blackfish turn up. Tywin also upped Tyrion's promises of compensation to the Wildlings meaning the debt would now be Jaime's so the Wildlings would have a strong incentive to help Jaime out here. Not to mention that they were impoverished and starving when it was still summer and before any wars. Their situation must now be exponentially worse.
  5. Lollygag

    Jaime, Joanna, and Cersei

    @Bernie Mac If you're going to disagree with what I say, please leave my words with which you disagree intact. Again, I won't respond further unless you revise your response to include the entirety of what I said. Context is important as the Out-of-Context quotes thread so nicely illustrates. You're not even quoting complete sentences - ?????
  6. I have to admit that I'm a bit hesitant about foreshadowing right now so it's not really on my radar. I've seen quite a few instances of foreshadowing for events already come to pass that are very complex chains which are about impossible to spot unless it's after the event's already passed and one is looking for the foreshadowing. I've seen a lot of foreshadowing from the early books which clearly were not foreshadowing as that event didn't come to pass and circumstances dictate it's no longer possible to come to pass. I don't recall the actual details, but Seams found the largest foreshadowing chain sequence I've seen which looked like it consisted of most if not all of a chapter on the Tourney of the Hand I think. Lately I look more to plot set up than foreshadowing. I don't doubt that some of the sourleaf symbolism is foreshadowing. I tend to see some of these things as interconnected anyhow: for example, revenge murder leads to living by the sword/dying by the sword fates making it also potential foreshadowing in itself. Revenge murder also gets treatment across all kinds of books/tv/movies as killing one's own soul if not one's body, so that might make revenge murder a foreshadowing of just soul-death, not literal death. I agree with the cold observer interpretation. Tywin's eyes especially are often linked to cold. Also agree that there's some complexity going on here which is worth looking into further.
  7. I think the bolded is exactly right. Sourleaf is also a painkiller, a Westerosi opioid which didn't catch on due to it's bad taste and unattractiveness. It also plays into the revenge themes of the series where characters use revenge as a painkiller and a solution to their problems. I think you have it right: the bloody/red mouth is quite straight forward, but sourleaf in contrast is much more complicated. It makes sense: if a bloody/red mouth is about the urge to kill in the moment, it wouldn't need to be overly complex. Sourleaf is addictive and makes a character's mouth bloody over an extended period of time thus creating a more complicated situation. Emmon Frey becoming Cersei's teeth in the Riverlands would make a lot of sense. Jaime has just resigned from the job and it would be natural to turn to Aunt Genna and Uncle Emmon. Some of the characters like Yoren and Chett stand on their own, not that they don't also have parallels, but the Pious Dwarf and Masha don't warrant this complex treatment, though I do think there's a backstory to Masha. I agree that Catelyn is my first guess. She's felt murderous towards Tyrion for a long time at this point fitting the sourleaf pattern and she's using revenge as a painkiller as evidenced by her despondency over Bran when it was an accident and no one was to blame in contrast to her become hyper-focused once she had a target in the catspaw. Catelyn is being calculating and careful with Tyrion but Masha may represent Catelyn's real feelings on the matter as Masha bypasses trial, discussion, negotiation, etc and goes straight to killing him: AGOT Tyrion IV Scarlet-tinged spittle flew from the fat innkeep's mouth as she begged of Catelyn Stark, "Don't kill him here!" "Don't kill him anywhere," Tyrion urged. AGOT Jon I When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king. Patchface technically belongs in the red mouth club for Mel's vision, but I think Mel has this wrong and it's the fool Bowen Marsh that she's really seeing. If it is Bowen Marsh, he belongs to the pomegranate group along with LF. Could Patchface be a bridge of sorts between Snatch and Bowen Marsh? Also, note that Marsh loses part of his ear and from that point on he can only hear/sing one song. ADWD Jon X Melisandre's face darkened. "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood." … "I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now." ADWD Jon III Bowen Marsh edged his mount up next to Jon's. "This is a day I never thought to see." The Lord Steward had thinned notably since suffering a head wound at the Bridge of Skulls. Part of one ear was gone. He no longer looks much like a pomegranate, Jon thought. Marsh said, "We bled to stop the wildlings at the Gorge. Good men were slain there, friends and brothers. For what?" ADWD Jon V Bowen was a good man in his way, but the wound he had taken at the Bridge of Skulls had hardened his attitudes, and the only song he ever sang now was his familiar refrain about sealing the gates.
  8. I love your explanation, Lolly! The weirwood remembers. It is the rejected, yet indelible, Shadow of the collective unconscious, as described by Jung. GRRM is alluding to this idea, e.g. in the choice of the name "Riverrun", which, as @Daendrew followed by @sweetsunray have highlighted, is a reference to the first word of James Joyce's classic 'Finnegans Wake', linking up with the last sentence of the novel, to give: a way a lone a last a loved a long the / riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs. I won't parse the whole passage, suffice to note that among the many layered meanings of 'commodious', a commode is a toilet, and 'commodious recirculation' is therefore a description of the polluted river as a sewer system -- with the ultimate message being that the vicious cycle of history has much in common with a cess pool, in which we all float like turds, carried by the current. Think of the sludgy brown mudflats fed by the river at the Quiet Isle, which receives, and regurgitates all things, corpses and gems alike (Seams' buries/rubies wordplay applies). Not coincidentally, the Azor Ahai trickster, naughty greenseer figure, Tyrion is Master of Sewers, served with ingeniously unblocking the 'bowels' of Casterly Rock. Make of that what you will. GRRM is also making a comment on how humans frequently treat other human beings like shit. He is a cynical romantic -- like Jaime. I just wanted to expand on the rivers connection which you made as I think it's getting a thorough treatment in the books. I'm still a bit unclear as to how it connects to the weirwoods, but it definitely does seem to. The literal and figurative shittiness of Craster's is highlighted several times in combination with profuse amounts of water which turn into shit-sludge and foul rivers. ACOK Jon III He had never thought to find a stone castle on the far side of the Wall, but he had pictured some sort of motte-and-bailey with a wooden palisade and a timber tower keep. What they found instead was a midden heap, a pigsty, an empty sheepfold, and a windowless daub-and-wattle hall scarce worthy of the name. It was long and low, chinked together from logs and roofed with sod. The compound stood atop a rise too modest to name a hill, surrounded by an earthen dike. Brown rivulets flowed down the slope where the rain had eaten gaping holes in the defenses, to join a rushing brook that curved around to the north, its thick waters turned into a murky torrent by the rains. … "Is Craster as savage as the rangers say?" Sam asked. The rabbit was a shade underdone, but tasted wonderful. "What's his castle like?" "A midden heap with a roof and a firepit." Jon told Sam what he had seen and heard in Craster's Keep. … The Lord Commander had entrusted his mount to Dolorous Edd. He was cleaning mud out of the horse's hooves as Jon dismounted. "Lord Mormont's in the hall," he announced. "He said for you to join him. Best leave the wolf outside, he looks hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children. Well, truth be told, I'm hungry enough to eat one of Craster's children, so long as he was served hot. Go on, I'll see to your horse. If it's warm and dry inside, don't tell me, I wasn't asked in." He flicked a glob of wet mud out from under a horseshoe. "Does this mud look like shit to you? Could it be that this whole hill is made of Craster's shit?" Craster's mother is from Whitetree where the monster man-eating weirwood resides. Strangely, there are only Ironwoods near Craster's but I think Craster is a big hint as to what the shitty information contained in the weirwoods alludes to. ADWD Davos IV "Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them." Entrails contain shit. This line of research has led me to look at the Rhoyne in a lot of detail and it supports what you say above about rivers being cess pools and negative aspects of history repeating itself. The Rhoyne wouldn’t literally be shitty as there aren’t enough people about for that to literally make sense, but it is foul and shitty in other ways. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we get told about the Rhoyne and the stone men right after we part ways with Illyrio whose name can be broken down to “sick river”. The Rhoyne changes direction (the river changed its run) when it hears who Aegon really is. Weirwoods remember, but so do rivers. ADWD Tyrion V "This is no common fog, Hugor Hill," Ysilla insisted. "It stinks of sorcery, as you would know if you had a nose to smell it. Many a voyager has been lost here, poleboats and pirates and great river galleys too. They wander forlorn through the mists, searching for a sun they cannot find until madness or hunger claim their lives. There are restless spirits in the air here and tormented souls below the water." "There's one now," said Tyrion. Off to starboard a hand large enough to crush the boat was reaching up from the murky depths. Only the tops of two fingers broke the river's surface, but as the Shy Maid eased on past he could see the rest of the hand rippling below the water and a pale face looking up. Though his tone was light, he was uneasy. This was a bad place, rank with despair and death. Ysilla is not wrong. This fog is not natural. Something foul grew in the waters here, and festered in the air. Small wonder the stone men go mad. "You should not make mock," warned Ysilla. "The whispering dead hate the warm and quick and ever seek for more damned souls to join them." Circling back around, Catelyn’s rotting body was fished out of a polluted by death river at which point she becomes a Shrouded Lord figure. A Tully becoming a Shrouded Lord figure makes a great deal of sense as Riverrun is a parallel to the Rhoyne. The Rhoyne is filled with the dead who are locked in the past and Stoneheart is the same and like the stonemen in the Rhoyne who remember, so does Stoneheart and the Trident which she represents. Like the Rhoyne, the Trident rivers have also been known to shift. And like the Rhoyne swallowing up firely Valyrians and turning them to stone, Rhaegar was swallowed up by the Trident, the fire of the rubies gone from his armor. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.
  9. Lollygag

    Jaime, Joanna, and Cersei

    Tywin hated, hated, hated his weak father Tytos to such an extent that when he became head of the house himself, he distanced it from the Lann the Clever influences instead favoring the influences of his best friend Aerys’ house Targaryen. I suspect that this is why there’s so much Targ imagery around the Lannister kids: they were raised to be Targ-like rather than Lannister-like. All through the books, you see a sort of genetic superiority vibe from the Lannisters only found in the Targs. So you raise kids with a heavy cultural Targ influence, you marry your own first cousin, you hype the superiority of your own bloodline over others, Cersei is extremely narcissistic, and Jaime is a follower. It’s easy to see how Cersei’s and Jaime’s relationship developed. Incest is also used as a literary device to point out Game of Thrones, inward, backward, short-sighted, selfish and on… modes of thinking. Note that as Jaime begins to finally see the big picture, he turns away from Cersei. Anytime you see incest, incest overtones, or pseudo incest in the series, you’ll also find that the character doesn’t have their priorities in place. But I do agree that Joanna dying likely had some degree of influence over Jaime. Both Jaime and Tyrion seem to look to Cersei for approval, Tyrion despite his simultaneous hatred of her. Jon had no true mother figure in his life despite being surrounded by women. No Osha turned up for him. Nor do Jaime, Tyrion or Cersei recall anyone who even came close to being a mother figure to any of them. Cersei never forgave Tyrion for killing Joanna and neither did Tywin. She looms large over the Lannisters despite her death.
  10. Lollygag

    Out of Context Quotes

    Fight on, I say! I'll be continuing my response here for lack of a better place a bit later today - have real world stuff to get to now. Thanks for making the connection to rivers and I've never thought to connect the Quiet Isle to it. I've been wondering about that. Anyhow, this thread goes into the shit/piss/old ways/human sacrifice/Lannister/Shrouded Lord-Rhoyne connection. Apologies I don't have a concise post to link you to. A lot of the ideas were gardened out and developed with a lot of help from others. Trying to not derail further...
  11. Lollygag

    Wow, I never noticed that v.16

    There’s quite a lot if you look for them. Sandor nearly lost his left eye to burning by his brother Gregor but managed to keep it. Jon initially thought he lost his left eye to Orell (a brother skinchanger) but managed to keep it. Orell later burns. Where Sandor wears burns over his left eye, Jon likely sports significant scaring over his left eye. Their physiques are different. Sandor is very tall and built like a bull. Jon is probably average height with a slimmer build. They lost their cloaks at about the same time, Jon to the Wildlings (Ygritte?) and the Hound to Sansa. Jon said an oath to the NW but has been challenged to keep it. The Hound refuses to give his oath to the KG because he knows he won’t be able to keep it. Arya finds Needle again with the Hound. Bran describes Jon’s eyes as seeing everything. The Hound is constantly berating Sansa to look, see. Sansa has trouble seeing Jon because as a bastard he doesn’t have a clear place in her fairy tale world. The Hound is constantly challenging Sansa to look at him. The Hound is very much linked to shadow and dark furthering the link to the NW. Just being clear here, though. I don’t see parallels as evidence of future romantic involvements. There are parallels all over the series. Trust me, you don’t want to extend the parallels = future romance universally across the series (Theon + Jaime anyone?) and it’s circular reasoning to apply it only in favored circumstances. It's there, but I'm cautious as to the point of it.
  12. @Corvo the Crow Continuing from the Wow I Never Noticed That Thread. Thought this was a great addition here. If we think of cold as burning like fire, then Gared certainly qualifies. He has ears burned off by the cold and the Hound has an ear burned off by fire. He survived the Others. Likewise, Craster has lost an ear to the burn of cold and he also survives interactions with the Others. AGOT Prologue "It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while. Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down or go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk. Peaceful, like."
  13. Lollygag

    Wow, I never noticed that v.16

    Adding to the above, Sansa is making out with her father LF. She tends to get mixed up sometimes like with the Unkiss. She slips up between calling LF by his name and Father, between calling Ned Father and Lord Stark. Jon looks like Ned/her father and she's making out with her other father... Jon sees Ygritte who is a mash up of Arya and Sansa and is attracted to her. Jon is very possessive of his two sisters. I do see set up for this to be reciprocal. Add to that the parallels between the Hound and Jon. It's very deliberate that Jon holds a sword to Ygritte's neck and thinks of Ned and killing and in the very next chapter the Hound holds a sword to Sansa's neck and muses on the same thing. The Hound showed an unusual attachment to both Stark girls. I'm concerned about Jon and Sansa enough that I'm no longer angry that the series will likely never be finished because then I won't have to read it along with some other things that I think will happen that I also don't really want to read. Not that I think these things won't be handled well.
  14. The mask is pulled off of the NK and he says, "and I'd have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you pesky kids." Seriously, Jon and Dany marry, have lots of beautiful kids and dragons, and live happily ever after being the perfect model monarchs who usher in a new era of peace, humanism and progress.
  15. I'm considering treating pale eyes as something like a birth defect = character defect. This wouldn't apply to eyes which are pale due to old age (Old Nan, Barristan) or the sick. There's a lot of consistency of pale eyes for colder characters. Not a full list: Viserys Bran’s would-be killer Tywin The Boltons Ilyn Payne Jon Con (Tyrion compares his pale eyes to Tywin's) Lysa Selyse Mandon Moore Emmon Frey The wights
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