The Sunland Lord

Since long walking was taken away from me for obvious reasons - and this along with exercise is how I managed to stay relatively fit, I decided to focus only on abs & diet and lost three kg (6.6. pounds) in the process. Prior to that lost about 10 kg (22 pounds) from January alone - but this came as a result in drastic changes of diet (already had my walking + exercise ) because I found out that I damaged my gallbladder and doctors said that if I don't change my diet ASAP they will have to remove it and I'd even have to be on a stricter diet after that. So yeah staying fit even during these times is crucial IMO, let's not forget that economies will break down and rise again but our health is what gives us life.

As far as we know, development of society is not going very fast in these novels, and it's not going faster in our real world either. So as I am setting up this topic, I am not questioning Dany's ability to end slavery that much, bur rather the possibility that she entered into something bigger than her - drastic changes require a lot of time. It is so in the real world and it is so on Planetos. We know that there were three slave rebellions in Rome - the last one, instigated by Spartacus, gave the Romans good run for their money but ended badly and nothing was changed. Paralells between GRRM's world and reality: Marcus Licinius Crassus - the man who crushed the rebellion in the Third Servile War, had the bodies of the remained rebels crucified along the Appian Way from Rome to Capua in the aftermath of the war. Similar thing happened on Essos: 163 (?) innocents were crucified by the masters. In retaliation, Daenerys crucified the exact same number of Slavers. Now, if there was another rebellion in Rome and the rebel leader decided to crucify 6,000 or so Romans by random choice, would it be any justice? Other comparison and maybe a hint - Some of the rebel leaders in Rome started to think more about the amount of booty collected rather than their freedom, and focused on raiding/pillaging instead of looking for an actual way out of Italy. In Martinworld, some of the slaves on Essos - I think his nickname was "Butcher" or something like that, wanted only to become a slaver instead of slavers. I think that what Martin will try to prove here is that - you cannot fight injustice with injustice, since if I remember correctly, the Slavers weren't put on a trial or there was an actual proof that the exact number of 163 slavers instigated the crucifixion of the innocents. (If there was, feel free to correct me or ignore this passage) Even if we exclude justice/injustice, the point about transformation of a society still stands. I am not trying to defend the slavers. Slavery cannot be sacrosanct. I am only asking for your opinion - how do you think that this will realistically end?

Because the Woe to the Vanquished rule applied. The rebels had no reason to offer justice to the defeated - and the defeated were in no position to ask for it.

I understand all of that. I get that mainly nobility can progress in Westeros. But what does it have to do with Renly? This thread is about why is he disliked. He is younger than those guys but yet you were the first to compare him with them. You only give him potential to be like them one day, but you put him on the same list with them as if he already accomplished something, which he didn't. Good politician, yes. Made the right choice there. He was preparing for war and got himself a good alliance. Well done. Let's not go that way. He declared himself king because he wanted to be one. He complied with the Tyrells who wanted to be a royal family - and he would've killed his brother and "nephews" in the process. He doesn't have a claim to the throne and he knows it. It's not as if the people who had the right before him died or were sick. He is going to wipe them all out - only so that he can be a king. So, he kills Stannis, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. He enters KL and sits on the throne. What kind of a king would be known for? A butcher and a kinslayer, worse than Joffrey. At least he intended to be one.

I'm not blaming him for living in such a system. I am just saying there's nothing praiseworthy about his accomplishments. All he did was the king's brother. He would've never got in that position by merit if Robert didn't win over the crown. Renly doesn't belong on this list. Tywin, Ned, Robert, Stannis are all proven warriors/commanders and they do have pretty impressive accomplishments. They proved themselves to be competent. How is Renly with his participation on a tourney and being beloved suddenly very successful? Again, master of laws via his brother being a king. Brokered alliance - yes he did, after having one of the most powerful kingdoms given to him by his brother, and was used by another powerful family that wanted their girl to become a queen. It's like saying Tyrion is this mastermind for coming up with the idea that they should ally with the Tyrells after Renly's death. The Tyrells didn't have a problem to ally with anyone that was going to promise them a royal wedding. Whatever, they are not all the exact same thing but they are whole package of traits for people like Renly so I'll take it. He didn't know about the twincest, so it leaves him being only more power hungry and a schemer like everyone else around him. He wants to replace the queen with another queen to get more power for himself. But also he is stupid enough to not know that this would lead to a civil war against the Lannisters. Or, smart enough to know it, but still going along with it and fine with a civil war- only for him to grab more influence/power in court. After Robert's death, yeah, I'll give in that pretty much Ned played it stupidly and Renly did offer him a good deal. Murder, kill, you name it. His brother Stannis would've ended up dead. He crowned himself based on nothing - bypassing the hierarchy with a clear intent to murder all of his nephews. He can't be a king if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are alive. So it's not only Joffrey. In order for him and Margaery to become king and queen, they all gotta go.

He is difficult to read into but I don't think he has some mental issues. Seems to me he knows exactly what he's doing most of the time.

He is a member of the ruling council of the kingdom thanks to his brother and nothing else. After he received one of the most powerful lands in Westeros, again, by his brother, and not other reason whatsoever, he did form an alliance with the Reach. I'll give him that. Nothing impressive here. He was following his brother's footsteps thinking that he can fill his shoes. But there is a difference between a plot (Cersei) and outright demanding the heads of Ned and Robert (Aerys II) that pissed off more than half of the kingdoms and they joined the rebels. What Renly had was an alliance with the Tyrells, publicly known as an alliance formed to overthrow the king that was known as his nephew, even to himself. He was not capable nor experienced in military affairs, not even willing to listen to those who were more experienced. He wasn't even a natural born warrior that was Robert. But, all of these points don't make him disliked. What makes me dislike him are the points I made in my previous post. Vainglorious, thinks too much of himself, arrogant, power hungry, potential murderer of his brother and nephews in order to grab this power he so much has coveted.

He is vainglorious, thinks too much of himself without any basis, arrogant. Further, he proclaims himself king of all seven kingdoms based on nothing. Doesn't have a clue about the twincest but he wants to be king. Willing to kill his brother, his nephews (thought they were his, didn't he?)...Only to be a king. He just died relatively innocent before turning into a monster.

Oberyn lost; but Tyrion still managed to survive despite that fact.

I think many would want to kill Tyrion Lannister in battle, because of his name. From a political point of view it makes sense for the enemies to kill one of the Lannister family. Captured is more valuable, of course, but I'm sure that Robb or Stannis or even Renly for that matter would've appreciated the man who killed Tyrion Lannister in battle.

The Faith will be probably decimated soon, and I am not sure they will play a huge role after that. Sure, it's not gonna die out, but certainly after radicalized themselves and tyrannized nobility they will fall low. The sparrows will fall after trying to fly so high. If Daenerys manages to seize control of Westeros, she certainly can take two husbands. People will talk; they always do, especially because she is also a woman. But, talking and actually do something about it are different things. What is it to them anyway? They want their needs to be pleased, both nobility and people, polygamy is not forced upon them but it would be merely chosen as a way of life by the rulers. That alone will not push them to some extreme degree. It can be only a pretext if they are not pleased by the governing itself or someone ambitious to become king himself uses it against them. I don't think Jon is a jealous type but doesn't strike me as an eccentric also to accept such position, while Aegon, who we yet don't know well, might be better suited for it, being one of the husbands of the queen or marry two women himself. Just mentioned Daenerys as an example, but it can apply to the rest of the possibilities from the OP.

I think the author wants to show the reader that Fortune, or the Gods, favour him for some reason. Those moments to me seemed like something that is supposed to be borderline magical, if not through clear agency (like Melisandre for example), but to be understood in that way by the reader.

At that point no one really knew Cersei. I don't remember if it was even mentioned whether he said something or not. Probably both relieved and disgusted.

Yarp, here's the quote from Tyrion IX: "Let her say what she likes. Her son needs to be taken in hand before he ruins us all. I blame those jackanapes on the council—our friend Petyr, the venerable Grand Maester, and that cockless wonder Lord Varys. What sort of counsel are they giving Joffrey when he lurches from one folly to the next? Whose notion was it to make this Janos Slynt a lord? The man's father was a butcher, and they grant him Harrenhal. Harrenhal, that was the seat of kings! Not that he will ever set foot inside it, if I have a say. I am told he took a bloody spear for his sigil. A bloody cleaver would have been my choice." His father had not raised his voice, yet Tyrion could see the anger in the gold of his eyes. "And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honor to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench." He pointed a finger at Tyrion's face. "If Cersei cannot curb the boy, you must. And if these councillors are playing us false …" Tyrion knew. "Spikes," he sighed. "Heads. Walls." "I see you have taken a few lessons from me."

Interesting, I never saw this as a mistake by Ned but it can be added to his political blunders. Good thinking by the OP. If he sent Loras he would have engaged another powerful house in the conflict against the Lannisters, which is the smart thing to do.