AFFC Reread Project - Brienne

[Maia]

Good point! Even though everyone sees her as an ugly woman, it seems that no one ever thinks she looks like a man - other than body-wise (i.e. her face must be a giveaway even when she's in men's clothes.) Perhaps it's just something as simple as not having stubble, but I feel that perhaps it's more than that.

Can't be that. Even now many guys don't really need to shave until 18 or so (my brother was one) and it used to be even more prevalent in the past, particulary among the people of Northern European descent. IIRC O'Henry wrote about a very masculine beardless guy of 20 "whose face never knew humilation of a razor", etc. Nor does Alleras's lack of stubble betray her .

Anyway, it felt like a gimmick to me and therefore grated. See how a woman who breaks out of the gender role is treated! But really, if anybody should have been easily able to pass for a man in the books it would have been Brienne.

Interesting observation that Brienne apparently had no Tarth contingent with her. Hm... Maybe the Saphire Isle, like the Shield Isles, has duty of fending off pirates and isn't expected to contribute to the general muster? If so, I see a dark future for the Evenstar . And a couple of people that Brienne probably had with her, got left in Renly's camp, of course.

[LadySoftheart]

Interesting observation that Brienne apparently had no Tarth contingent with her. Hm... Maybe the Saphire Isle, like the Shield Isles, has duty of fending off pirates and isn't expected to contribute to the general muster? If so, I see a dark future for the Evenstar . And a couple of people that Brienne probably had with her, got left in Renly's camp, of course.

It's interesting though, no? Because Brienne always seems so alone (when Catelyn sees her at Bitterbridge) and there's no one ever mentioned who might have come with her - I feel like she ran away from home or something, only I suppose we don't have enough information to know. It makes her relationship with Pod more poignant, though, if he is the first person she's had willingly travel with her. Jaime, of course, was quite an important travelling companion but she didn't choose to take responsibility for him - and of course, what happened to him in her care (even though Jaime himself eventually absolves her of responsibility for that) makes her all the more careful of Pod, I think.

You're right about the shaving - I was just trying to think of logical reasons why people wouldn't assume she was a man. I suppose it is possible to be an ugly woman without looking manly, although I'm hard pressed to think of an example. Perhaps it is her exceptionally beautiful and large eyes that are the giveaway? I think it's necessary for the plot though that she is never assumed to be a man when she's not in armor, so I'll handwave that away.

[Reposado]

lady softheart, i never really thought about it while reading the first time, but i think you might be right. there is very likely something we don't know here. perhaps this is also connected to the "character whose story could not be told in flashback" comment. which would of course mean brienne will be significant in the next book after adwd at least.

also, i just checked the appendix for acok, and he is listed as lord selwyn of tarth, the evenstar, which is an odd way to reference him. it raelly sticks out next to mathis rowan, leyton hightower, randyll tarly, etc.

that definately makes me think that tarth is not the family name.

i do still think he's old tho.

[Elgernon]

I too checked the appendix with the same result . . . although I would like to add that at least in the AFFC appendix they aren't even listed in the "Houses Great and Small" but rather with "Rebels Rouges Small Folk and Sworn Brothers" under the further heading of "Lordlings, Wanderers, and Common Men"

One thing I noticed in particular was the seven pointed star carved into the chest of one of the Sparrows. This is an interesting juxtapostion with the brand on Areo Hotah's chest. And also perhaps a comment on the fanatacism vs dedication of the different faiths, as the Sparrow likely carved the star himself while Hotah accepted the brand as part of his role. Also of note is the difference in apparent fanaticism of the soon to be High Septon. As a lowly Sparrow traveling on the road he seems much more in touch with reality while later he will go off the deep end. Perhaps this has something to do with playing the role of his postion, and perhaps neither the lowly sparrow nor the fanatical High Septon are indicative of his true convictions/feelings. Another question have we met this man before?

In the reread I have gained a much greater appreciation for the Brienne POV. While I never disliked the perspective as many have, I didn't truly appreciate the huge role this POV plays. Not only do we delve deeper into Brienne herself, but also Jamie, Cersei, Renly and many others. Furthermore as Brienne is journeying through areas that we haven't always seen before we get to encounter more smallfolk and see different parts of the Seven Kingdoms. I feel this is very valuable in helping us to understand more about the land and the story that GRRM is so kindly allowing us to be obsessed with.

[Lupigis]

I liked the Brienne chapters even before I read them. When boarders first began to speculate that there would be a Brienne POV in AFFC, I was thrilled, and as speculation turned to near certainty with the appearance of an (eventually never used) piece of cover art I was delighted. Obviously, I had high expectations of Brienne's chapters from the start, and reading AFFC I was happy to see those expectations fulfilled.

Now that I finally have some time to actually write about these chapters, the rest of you re-readers have already analysed the first one thoroughly. Thus, I'll try to analyse the reason why I like Brienne so much. As far as I can see, there is no single unique property about Brienne that can be used to explain her attraction as a character. She is a good fighter, but there are plenty of those in the series. She is an outsider, but so are Sam, Theon and Tyrion, to name a few.

Instead, I think much of my interest stems from the combination of these two properties and the circumstances Brienne finds herself in. Brienne is a young person who who is very talented and skilled at one thing, but no one appreciates her skill. Instead, it causes her to be shunned and mocked by her peers. In the books, she is often referred to as a freak, but I think that she is much more of a geek. In our world (and in the stories we tell about it) the geek usually has theoretical talents and is physically weak (Sam obviously fits this stereotype rather well). However, I think that many who have been even slightly geeky teenagers can identify with Brienne's feelings of alienation. Add to this her great ability as a fighter, something that is attractive in heroes both in Westeros and among us (at least in the general case) and you get a geek who can fight. I'm not ashamed to admit that I find this particular combination of archetypes very attractive. I also like stories about quests, and Briennes search for Sansa is clearly Martin's take on the typical fantasy quest story.

To remark a little on the chapter under discussion, I agree with wilding that Brienne comes off an naive. IMO, this is as it should be - it would be strange if she acted like a full-fledged PI from the start.

A few people said upthread that the scene where Brienne encounters the future high septon shows him as a moderate, when he stops his followers from trying to force her and the two other knights to follow them to Kings Landing. IMO, this just shows that the high septon is a pragmatic. Brienne, Illifer and Creighton are armed and armoured, and even if the septon's crew could take them it would be a hard fight and several of his followers could get killed. Thus, he choses not to fight at that particular moment, just as he will propably surrender Cersei and Margeary when the Tyrell and Lannister armies reach KL.

[Reposado]

well i'm fairly certain that the evenstar has not lost any stature. there just isn't anyone in storm's end for him to be a bannerman to currently.

i didn't actually notice it was the same guy that becomes high septon, definatel lookjng forward to watching the changes.

[cteresa]

About Brienne´s age, I want to add that that the ages of characters in this book do not quite match what we expect, characters are consistently younger than we expect. I don´t think it´s a "year" difference towards our calendar, just GRRM reflecting that in earlier times people aged faster.

Ok, I admit it, I think I am now a Brienne basher. Or not quite Brienne ( I do like her, and no she is not dumb at all, the Parsifal remark is pretty good I thought) but her chapters, somehow they do not capture me exactly. It has taken me ages to reread this chapter and comparing it with the following Sam chapter, that was so much richer for me. oh, the chapter is beautifully written, and it´s full of information without data dumps, but Brienne´s chapters seem a little bit different than the rest of the series, as if her quest is on a different rhytm than the rest. if this makes any sense.

The Sparrows made me think of St Francis´ Penitents as well.

And I thought the reason Brienne abandoned the two knights was that Shadrich reminded her that Sansa is worth money, would she trust those two harmless though they seem with Sansa´s welfare when Varys would pay so much ( not that Varys is around, but they would not know that).

BTW, is my mind dirty of did ser Shadrich calling himself od the Shady Glen while coming on to Brienne came off as inuendo? Or is the title for real? it does not sound real.

[Thynessa Reed]

Ok, I admit it, I think I am now a Brienne basher. Or not quite Brienne ( I do like her, and no she is not dumb at all, the Parsifal remark is pretty good I thought) but her chapters, somehow they do not capture me exactly... Brienne´s chapters seem a little bit different than the rest of the series, as if her quest is on a different rhytm than the rest. if this makes any sense.

I think Brienne works extremely well as a foil to someone else - Jaime for example, or even Hyle Hunt or Randall Tarley. It must be more difficult writing a "good" character - there always seems to be an unknowable mystery (emptiness?) at the centre of them which is hard to convey - a mistake most writers tend to fall into is making a "good" character a passive character.

[cteresa]

I think Brienne works extremely well as a foil to someone else - Jaime for example, or even Hyle Hunt or Randall Tarley. It must be more difficult writing a "good" character - there always seems to be an unknowable mystery(emptiness?) at the centre of them which is hard to convey - a mistake most writers tend to fall into is making a "good" character into a passive one.

I think Sam is *good* deep down and completely ( and in her way Dany as well), and he is one of my favorite characters - not necessarily my favorite PoV, but his chapters tend to be pretty good. I vehemently object to good having to be inherently boring or empty or mysterious. It´s just that Brienne´s chapters well, sorry too much Brienne for the rest of the book. Like what happens in this chapter exactly, behind we getting the recap of the rest of the series? Compare it chapter before and chapter after which are also recaps in a way.

[LadySoftheart]

I think Sam is *good* deep down and completely ( and in her way Dany as well), and he is one of my favorite characters - not necessarily my favorite PoV, but his chapters tend to be pretty good. I vehemently object to good having to be inherently boring or empty or mysterious. It´s just that Brienne´s chapters well, sorry too much Brienne for the rest of the book. Like what happens in this chapter exactly, behind we getting the recap of the rest of the series? Compare it chapter before and chapter after which are also recaps in a way.

Hmmm! I think Brienne and Sam are actually very much alike, and I felt kind of the same way about some of the Sam chapters (like him and Gilly!) that you did about the Brienne ones, I think. Anyway, one thing the Brienne chapters show us is that Randall Tarly has no patience for freaks of ANY variety - his treatment of Brienne is quite harsh too and he very definitely doesn't approve of her vocation, so I think it illuminates a little bit his relationship with his son. In some ways, Sam is maybe more easily identifiable for me in some ways because he's bookish, and, well, obviously so am I (Sam would definitely be posting on message boards about his favorite books, don't you think?) and Brienne's skill set is something I don't personally possess, but they have similar kinds of issues with self-confidence, don't you think? And they are both "freaks" in their society - and therefore outsiders.

[Happy Ent]

Sam would definitely be posting on message boards about his favorite books, don't you think?

I think he would even participate in a group re-read of Septon Meribald. That's how big a geek he is.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I agree that Brienne and Sam are very much alike. They are both basically good characters (and no, it doesn't mean they are boring), they are also misfits who don't fit to gender stereotypes prevailing in their society, and therefore they feel very insecure. Both also meet with disapproval of Randyll Tarly. Moreso, they are both very talented individuals, but their talents are not what is expected from people of their gender.

I have one complaint, though. GRRM doesn't shirk from showing us sex scenes with unattractive men, but we haven't see any scenes with unattractive women. We had hot midget sex and now also hot fatman sex, but where is hot swordwench sex?

[Lupigis]

I have one complaint, though. GRRM doesn't shirk from showing us sex scenes with unattractive men, but we haven't see any scenes with unattractive women. We had hot midget sex and now also hot fatman sex, but where is hot swordwench sex?

I am convinced that he will get to that eventually. The only question is with who, and from what POV. Off the top of my head I can't recall any heterosexual sex told from a female POV so far in the series. Perhaps a B + J coupling told from the POV of Jaime...

ETA: Except for Drogo and Dany, of course. How could I forget that one?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Well, this topic should be unlocked now.

[LadySoftheart]

I have one complaint, though. GRRM doesn't shirk from showing us sex scenes with unattractive men, but we haven't see any scenes with unattractive women. We had hot midget sex and now also hot fatman sex, but where is hot swordwench sex?

Hopefully, this will coupled (::groans at AWFUL pun: with hotcrippledmansex… And by hotcrippledman, I don’t mean Willas Tyrell, thank you very much – I mean a certain one-handed white-armor wearing type that Brienne seems to have developed quite the fondness for

[Happy Ent]

Ah, the thread is unlocked! Unfortunately, I forgot most of what I wanted to write.

I left this chapter with a huge grin on my face, which starts when Brienne has her shield repainted and we recognise Dunk's arms, and certainly doesn't get any smaller when she hooks up with Pod. Dunk and Egg ride again, yet where Dunk was met with smiles and admiration by everybody (he is strong and tall and—I think—quite good looking), Brienne is taunted whenever she removes her helmet, and where Egg has a sharp and witty tongue and the natural authority of the highborn, Pod spends most of his time staring at the ground.

Brienne includes lots of characters (Dunk and Parceval, for example) but she is also Don Quixote and Pod is her Sancho Panza. Though maybe I am stretching this analogy: Sancho and Pod do not share many characteristics, except for being badly provided with mounts.

Timeline No hard evidence, but I believe Brienne actually arrives in Duskendale on the morning of the same night she left the Stone Bridge Inn. (She looks around for Ser Shadrich outside the gates, to see if his group has caught up with her.) Lord Tywin's death has just reached Duskendale, I find it impossible to decide if Brienne knew of this before or not. (This would help decide when she actually left KL.) But she gives us no reaction at all.

Arboreal perspective Good insight on different types of wood for shield. Pine is lighter and will catch the oponent's axe, but Brienne needs oak. Heavy, sturdy, stubborn, much like herself. This is an often-overlooked authorial ploy: where many writers of the romantic area anthropomorphised nature to explain her traits, Martin tells us something about a homo sapiens by associating her with different types of tree. I wish more authors did that; it would be much easier for me (who is often puzzled by the sentiments of animal lifeforms) to emphasise with the characters.

[Ashara Stark]

The innkeeper claims she has royal blood, from the Darklyns. In the previuos Jaime's chapter, Longwaters claims also to have royal blood. It seems everybody in Westeros has royal blood in him ... lot of candidates for Melisandre's fires

In this chapter we learn some interesting information about the Defiance of Duskendale and how Aerys madness began then. Lord Darklyn's Myrish wife, the Lace Serpent, poisoning his husband's ears with ideas of rosing against Aerys reminded me of Lady Taena Merryweather plotting to obtain more power for her husband. Myrish women seem to be extremely ambitious!.

Brienne meets the dwarf brother whose head will be presented to Cersei as Tyrion's later. Even though he has suffered a lot during the war, he is optimistic and very kind to Brienne.

In this chapter it is made clear that Brienne has fallen in love with Jaime replacing her previous love for Renly: when she dreams of Renly's death, it is Jaime's face she sees.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I liked this chapter. I like Brienne and I like her story - altough I am apparently in minority. Brienne once again hears about maiden who is likely not a maiden anymore. Ouch. One time was more than enough. I must admit I completely missed that teh dwarf is the same whose head is later presented to Cersei. Poor man! He so wanted to get to King's Landing:(

I also missed Podrick and his identity was a complete surprise to me. OTOH, I recognized Dunk's arms instatntly. I hope we will someday get to know more about Dunk's 'child. The painter woman is obviously very talented individual. I liked her and other intimations of everyday life in Westeros as well.

It is mentioned that Brienne asked Brella before leaving KL: She actually was quite smart about her research, but her chances were slim to begin with.

Yes, we see that Jaime is replacing Renly as object of Brienne's affection. We also get to see that Jaime is widely despised in Westeros. People are spitting when speaking his name.

A dwarf is nice to Brienne, but by mentioning a fool he inadvertedly points her in a wrong way which leads to tragic end of her quest. OTOH, I don't see how this quest could be possibly successful.

[Happy Ent]

Another detail I liked: Brienne thinks she is stupid because she asked her septa if the Father Above would be able to look through hair. Hello-oh! That's not stupid. That's smart. I wish more people asked these kinds of common sense questions (which children do but adults don't).

[Ashara Stark]

It is mentioned that Brienne asked Brella before leaving KL: She actually was quite smart about her research, but her chances were slim to begin with.

Before reading AFfC I thought it possible that somebody would have seen the ship that took Sansa to the Fingers (the Merling King) anchored in King's Landing . But it seems nobody saw it