A Dothraki Arakh

["Blackfyre"]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1725854' date='Mar 19 2009, 14.10']I think the Samshir is the most likely candidate, personally.[/quote]

I disagree. No real curve to the blade. When I think of the readings I try to put myself in the person's position. I could be wrong, but if this was the samshir is the sword GRRM is basing the arakh off of, I highly doubt Jamie would make mention of it being curved. There is the problem though of the sheath. Regardless, I still believe the kopesh style like the longer one found [url="http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/kopesh.jpg"]here[/url] is what GRRM had in mind.

[Ocean of Notions]

[quote name='Blackfyre Heir' post='1726103' date='Mar 19 2009, 18.23']I disagree. No real curve to the blade. When I think of the readings I try to put myself in the person's position. I could be wrong, but if this was the samshir is the sword GRRM is basing the arakh off of, I highly doubt Jamie would make mention of it being curved. There is the problem though of the sheath. Regardless, I still believe the kopesh style like the longer one found [url="http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/kopesh.jpg"]here[/url] is what GRRM had in mind.[/quote]

I dunno... [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamshir"]it looks pretty curvy[/url] to me.

[Venardhi]

This is what I meant by a halfway point. You have the stylish shape of the khopesh, but the function of something more applicable to the sweeping motions fighting from horseback, as well as a nice hacking edge if anything is really close. Curving the blade back is really the key here, and why a khopesh doesn't really work

[url="http://www.venardhi.com/sketches/basicarakh.jpg"]The arakh in my mind's eye[/url].

[Valyrian-Steel]

How do you sheath a khopesh?

The same as many variable width blades or curved blades. Many scimitars cannot be sheathed either.

The way you do it is the backside of the sheath is open, so the sheath resembles a taco, perhaps with a little roof for a short length on one end, than a pipe.

That is how any sheath or scabbard meant for most of the blades mentioned here will be constructed.

In anycase, soon enough we will learn the truth.

Now, does anyone want to argue over what might set Khal Drogo's Arakh apart from a standard arakh?

[Khaalis]

Personally I would like to see a mix the Arakh be realistic and functional to its purpose. As has been said, this indicates a curved blade to be a realistic horseman's weapon. Contrary to what many people have posted, a Khopesh would Not be a good example of an Arakh.

Contrary to what many people have quoted, a Khopesh is NOT a sword (which evolved from daggers) and calling it a sword or a sickle-sword is a misnomer. A Khopesh is the Egyptian name (and evolution) of a Sumerian epsilon axe or fenestrated axe dating back to about the 3rd millennium BC. A khopesh is composed of three parts... a hilt, a straight and un-sharpened shaft of metal ending in a curved and crescent blade. In fact, most Khopesh were not even sharp, used more as a bludgeoning tool than to cut. A khopesh is actually classified as a specialized type of battle axe.
[url="http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/khopesh_development.jpg"]http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/khopesh_development.jpg[/url]

It also went out of use around 1300-1200BC.

Also, from Martin's description "long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe", this would seem to indicate a classic Shamshir blade typical of Persia, Mughal India and other Arabian areas from the middle of the 16th century.
[url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/shamshir1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/shamshir1o.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/saif1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/saif1o.jpg[/url]

Now if you want variation on the theme, you also have:

Tulwars: [url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/tulwar1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/tulwar1o.jpg[/url]

And many variations on the Scimitar. here are a few...
[url="http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialArts/Media/Swords/scimitar.jpg"]http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialA...ds/scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://i.xanga.com/Dexargile/Dex%20Scimitar.jpg"]http://i.xanga.com/Dexargile/Dex%20Scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Scimitar.jpg"]http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.salute.co.uk/salute2008/images/goblin_scimitar.jpg"]http://www.salute.co.uk/salute2008/images/...in_scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/nickbrutal/short-scimitar.jpg"]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/ni...rt-scimitar.jpg[/url]

I think this might be a good representation of a slightly more 'fantastic' version, short of a shamshir/scimitar with a more whip-like rapier-ish blade.
[url="http://www.jamesthejust.com/images/scimitar2.jpg"]http://www.jamesthejust.com/images/scimitar2.jpg[/url]

I would personally hate to see an axe passed off as a horseman's sword.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Yagathai' post='1726053' date='Mar 19 2009, 16.48']Wuh? OK, it's curved, fine, but:

It's double-edged. Not only is that useless on a curved blade, it also weakens the back edge or "spine" of the blade, what the Japanese call the [i]mune[/i], making it more prone to breaking when you're, say, slashing at something at high speed as you ride past it. In fact, the back edge is thinnest right where blade meets grip, which is exactly where it's most likely to break.

The grip curves the wrong way, like a pistol. That's... backwards, especially since the blade curves the other way.

Speaking of the grip, there's no pommel (I don't count that gently curved flared metal thing) or branch or finger-loop or guard. On a cavalry weapon, that means that the blade flies out of your hand at the first pass, assuming your hand doesn't get cut off. And no, those little... spike things on the blade don't count either.[/quote]

First off, it is single edged, at least according to the sites selling the official movie replica of it. There is a section of the back of the blade that appears to come to an edge towards the handle, but the opposite side of that is thick, and that section of the blade appears to follow the curve of the handle. The two curves - that of the handle and that of the blade - appear to connect just below of that jutted out spike on the blade, and there's a section that's thick on both sides. I question how that will react. Because logic would tell me that the point that would receive the most stress during a blow is right there, where both sides of the blade are thick. That's where the two opposing forces will meet following their respective curves along the sword.

Second, the blade is very reminiscent of the Dao, or Chinese Broadsword, which had that style of grip. It's purpose is to increase the user's handling of the blade. These were the swords that the Mongols preferred. So your complaint on the grip is, well...completely invalid.

Third, quite a few swords lack a pommel. A pommel is a counterweight attached to the end of the hilt, meant to improve the balance of the weapon. It has nothing to do with protecting your hand. What I think you mean is the guard, which does protect the user's hand - mostly from an opponent's sword sliding along your blade and cutting you, and from your own hand sliding up the handle onto the blade. But there are quite a few swords throughout history that lack a guard, or have a very subtle guard. And it is by no means meant to prevent a disarm.

Also, throwing out Japanese words isn't going to make your case stronger. So don't.

[Ran]

Drogo's [i]arakh[/i] is said to be "chased with gold". That would be the chief difference, I imagine.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1726950' date='Mar 20 2009, 10.44']Now, does anyone want to argue over what might set Khal Drogo's Arakh apart from a standard arakh?[/quote]

The open sheath makes sense.

Are we talking the one that was given to him via Daenery's wedding, or the one he personally used often?

There seem to be two mentioned in the texts, one he is burned with - the one he used in combat when he got the wound that ended up killing him, and the other one that Daenerys wouldn't allow to be burned because it was given to her.

If it's Daenery's gift arakh, then it's heavily ornamented with gold. Past that I'd say something big.

[Yagathai]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1726968' date='Mar 20 2009, 12.01']Third, quite a few swords lack a pommel. A pommel is a counterweight attached to the end of the hilt, meant to improve the balance of the weapon. It has nothing to do with protecting your hand. What I think you mean is the guard, which does protect the user's hand - mostly from an opponent's sword sliding along your blade and cutting you, and from your own hand sliding up the handle onto the blade. But there are quite a few swords throughout history that lack a guard, or have a very subtle guard. And it is by no means meant to prevent a disarm.

Also, throwing out Japanese words isn't going to make your case stronger. So don't.[/quote]

No, I meant a pommel, as in the knobby bit that goes at the end of the grip. It works as a counterweight, but it also helps from keeping your hand from sliding off the blade completely when the blade catches on something as you're riding past it at high speed. Now I've seen some cavalry sabers that substitute... whatever you call it when the grip curves into a little knob at the end, like this one: [url="http://www.geocities.com/ewmyers/swords/tartar_saber1.jpg"]http://www.geocities.com/ewmyers/swords/tartar_saber1.jpg[/url]. Or some of them have a guard that attaches at the top and the bottom of the grip, to form a loop: [url="http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/image/bermejo/saber3b.jpg"]http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/image/bermejo/saber3b.jpg[/url].

Many blades do lack one or the other, but I have yet to see an example of a cavalry weapon that lacks both because -- again -- if the grip is just a straight, smooth piece of laminated wood, like Arwen's sword, the blade is going to be jerked out of your hand the minute it catches on anything. And even if I saw an example, I would say "Wow, that's dumb. You're going to lose that sword very easily, even assuming your hand doesn't get sliced off!"

Unless you're a mastadon-surfing elf, of course, with a grip of steel. Or the blade is too fantasy-sharp to be caught on anything.

[Valyrian-Steel]

[quote name='Khaalis' post='1726964' date='Mar 20 2009, 11.58']Personally I would like to see a mix the Arakh be realistic and functional to its purpose. As has been said, this indicates a curved blade to be a realistic horseman's weapon. Contrary to what many people have posted, a Khopesh would Not be a good example of an Arakh.

Contrary to what many people have quoted, a Khopesh is NOT a sword (which evolved from daggers) and calling it a sword or a sickle-sword is a misnomer. A Khopesh is the Egyptian name (and evolution) of a Sumerian epsilon axe or fenestrated axe dating back to about the 3rd millennium BC. A khopesh is composed of three parts... a hilt, a straight and un-sharpened shaft of metal ending in a curved and crescent blade. In fact, most Khopesh were not even sharp, used more as a bludgeoning tool than to cut. A khopesh is actually classified as a specialized type of battle axe.
[url="http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/khopesh_development.jpg"]http://1501bc.com/files/khopesh/khopesh_development.jpg[/url]

It also went out of use around 1300-1200BC.

Also, from Martin's description "long razor-sharp blades, half sword and half scythe", this would seem to indicate a classic Shamshir blade typical of Persia, Mughal India and other Arabian areas from the middle of the 16th century.
[url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/shamshir1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/shamshir1o.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/saif1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/saif1o.jpg[/url]

Now if you want variation on the theme, you also have:

Tulwars: [url="http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/tulwar1o.jpg"]http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/tulwar1o.jpg[/url]

And many variations on the Scimitar. here are a few...
[url="http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialArts/Media/Swords/scimitar.jpg"]http://www.georgehernandez.com/h/xMartialA...ds/scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://i.xanga.com/Dexargile/Dex%20Scimitar.jpg"]http://i.xanga.com/Dexargile/Dex%20Scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Scimitar.jpg"]http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://www.salute.co.uk/salute2008/images/goblin_scimitar.jpg"]http://www.salute.co.uk/salute2008/images/...in_scimitar.jpg[/url]
[url="http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/nickbrutal/short-scimitar.jpg"]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p135/ni...rt-scimitar.jpg[/url]

I think this might be a good representation of a slightly more 'fantastic' version, short of a shamshir/scimitar with a more whip-like rapier-ish blade.
[url="http://www.jamesthejust.com/images/scimitar2.jpg"]http://www.jamesthejust.com/images/scimitar2.jpg[/url]

I would personally hate to see an axe passed off as a horseman's sword.[/quote]

A khopesh is not an axe.

A khopesh is a sword that was constructed to take advantage of physics. Axes can deliver much stronger blows than swords, a smart guy figured out that if you made a sword in the shape of an axe you could benefit from the same fundamentals of physics that an axe benefits from, but do so with a sword. Namely, leverage.

Just because a khopesh was inspired by an axe, does not make it an axe. A Song of Ice and Fire was inspired by the wars between houses in medieval Britain. This does not make it an actual historical account of British History.

A trebuchet was inspired by a simple sling, does that make a trebuchet a sling? Did David use a trebuchet to slay Golliath? Would you hunt birds with a trebuchet? Could a trebuchet fit in your pocket?

Obviously, just because something is inspired by something else is rather irrelevant to the item's function.

Also, none of your suggestions look like a [url="http://www.vtcommons.org/files/images/scythe.gif"]scythe[/url], if indeed it is a scythe-blade. A scythe has a wider blade, you've posted mostly very skinny blades. You've also posted things that I would not even call scimitars. Some people will post a picture on the internet of a sword with a cruved blade and call it a scimitar just because it has a curved blade. It could actually be a falchion, a falcata, a katana, or any of numerous other blade types that are curved, but scimitar is all they know, so they call it that.

Namely, a few of the links you posted are S-curved blades, like a khopesh, like Hadhafang from LOTR that someone mentioned previously. They're way down the evolutionary food chain from a khopesh, but with the hilt curving to the inverse of the blade they're certainly not scimitars in my book.

But, we can agree on liking the S curve style, you can call it a scimitar, I wouldn't. But I did send GRRM many S curve blade pictures.

[Valyrian-Steel]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1726976' date='Mar 20 2009, 12.06']The open sheath makes sense.

Are we talking the one that was given to him via Daenery's wedding, or the one he personally used often?

There seem to be two mentioned in the texts, one he is burned with - the one he used in combat when he got the wound that ended up killing him, and the other one that Daenerys wouldn't allow to be burned because it was given to her.

If it's Daenery's gift arakh, then it's heavily ornamented with gold. Past that I'd say something big.[/quote]

I forgot there was so many, we'll have to decide which one to produce.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Yagathai' post='1727089' date='Mar 20 2009, 12.23']Many blades do lack one or the other, but I have yet to see an example of a cavalry weapon that lacks both because -- again -- if the grip is just a straight, smooth piece of laminated wood, like Arwen's sword, the blade is going to be jerked out of your hand the minute it catches on anything. And even if I saw an example, I would say "Wow, that's dumb. You're going to lose that sword very easily, even assuming your hand doesn't get sliced off!"

Unless you're a mastadon-surfing elf, of course, with a grip of steel. Or the blade is too fantasy-sharp to be caught on anything.[/quote]

I've given you an example of a sword that lacks a definitive pommel like the one you describe that is used in mounted combat, twice now. How often will you disregard it? Or do the Mongols know nothing of mounted warfare? Or are they secretly mastadon-surfing elves? What about the Japanese, since you're fond of using their terms? Their swords have no pommels either.

Ok. The pommel is not to prevent the sword from being wrenched from your hands - once you've lost your grip, it's pretty much gone. The pommel will probably hit your hand and bruise it, or if it's a basket hilt damage your fingers some, but it's not going to do that much. This is for the case of when it's literally getting pulled from your hands in a straight fashion, which isn't very likely to happen on horseback. More often it will be wrenched from your hands, and the pommel will do nothing for it. Longswords and other hacking weapons have that problem of being wrenched out of your hands, due to the nature of the cut. Slashing weapons, though, don't, again - because of the style of cut and the blade's curved nature.

And yes, a pommel on a straight handle is useful to keep your grip in the right spot. But Arwen's sword, and the Chinese Dao, aren't exactly straight, are they? That curve is very useful to keep your hand in place.

Either way, I'm done arguing this point. Not to mention this is completely off topic, since we're not even discussing an Arakh.

BTW, the first picture you posted, that's just a style of pommel. The second sword has a basket-hilt. The basket hilt is meant to provide better protection to the hand.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1727268' date='Mar 20 2009, 13.59']Namely, a few of the links you posted are S-curved blades, like a khopesh, like Hadhafang from LOTR that someone mentioned previously. They're way down the evolutionary food chain from a khopesh, but with the hilt curving to the inverse of the blade they're certainly not scimitars in my book.

But, we can agree on liking the S curve style, you can call it a scimitar, I wouldn't. But I did send GRRM many S curve blade pictures.[/quote]

I wouldn't take Hadhafang too seriously, that was just part of an argument that got sidetracked that originated with, "this is a fantasy series, it doesn't *have* to be functional.*

And I do agree with your points about how a kopesh, just because it was inspired by an axe, doesn't necessarily make it an axe - if it did, the Falcata would be considered an axe too. I think the kopesh did retain the chopping/hacking aspect of an axe in addition to the slashing aspects of a sword, though. It's a very interesting weapon, though I wish I knew why they, and the falcata that evolved from it, fell out of favor.

I dunno. But I'm glad you sent some of the S curved blades to him as well, I think those are more representative of what the Mongols used, which the Dothraki seemed to be heavily derived from.

[Ran]

One thing about khopesh blades that isn't being brought up: they're [i]short[/i]. Two feet or so, tops. [i]Arakhs[/i] are long, on the other hand.

[Guest Other-in-law]

It really seems strange to me that anyone can get a khopesh or any pronounced s-curve out of "half-sword half-scythe". Do all of the khopesh advocates actually think GRRM doesn't know what a scythe is?

[Valyrian-Steel]

[quote name='Ran' post='1727466' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.49']One thing about khopesh blades that isn't being brought up: they're [i]short[/i]. Two feet or so, tops. [i]Arakhs[/i] are long, on the other hand.[/quote]

Exactly, no one is saying an arakh would be a khopesh. Or even that an arakh would have a real world exact equivalent. But take the khopesh, stretch it out, soften the harshness of the first curve. Maybe that is what an arakh looks like.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1727539' date='Mar 20 2009, 16.39']Exactly, no one is saying an arakh would be a khopesh. Or even that an arakh would have a real world exact equivalent. But take the khopesh, stretch it out, soften the harshness of the first curve. Maybe that is what an arakh looks like.[/quote]

So, something kinda like a sickle, but with a very large gentle curve that's more scythe-like?

One of the main problems I have with envisioning a kopesh as an arakh is that arakhs are very commonly described as thin. And with that sharp joint in a traditional kopesh, where the half-circle joins with the straight segment of the sword, I can't imagine that joint would last very long. It just feels like a glaring point of failure on the practical side. I mean, it worked for the kopesh because the metal was thick and wide, meant to have the heft of an axe. But I think an arakh is supposed to be more...elegant and fluid in motion.

What would you propose to correct this, given that it won't have the mass of metal protecting that joint? Have a more gentle, curved joint that lacks the sharp edges? Or perhaps a very small "S" shaped joint there?

Also, where do you think the balance of the blade should be for a kopesh-like arakh? (Questions of curiosity, not of arguing.)

BTW Valyrian-Steel, the Needle prototype looks awesome.

[ogbebaba]

O.K. wich one do you like?

[b]1[/b]
[url="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelbone/Philippine%20Edged%20Weapons%20Forum/Bicol2.jpg"]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v51/zelb...orum/Bicol2.jpg[/url]
[b]2[/b]
[url="http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narikoswords_painted_together.jpg"]http://www.amethyst-angel.com/weblog/narik...ed_together.jpg[/url]
[b]3[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06/curved-double-grind.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/8-3-06...ouble-grind.jpg[/url]
[b]4[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jodys-fantasy-kuhkri.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...tasy-kuhkri.jpg[/url]
[b]5[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-05/fantasy-cutlass.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/12-9-0...asy-cutlass.jpg[/url]
[b]6[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-06/seaward-katana.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/1-26-0...ward-katana.jpg[/url]
[b]7[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-06/curved-angular-blade.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-17-...gular-blade.jpg[/url]
[b]8[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/jody%27s-heavy-sabre.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...heavy-sabre.jpg[/url]
[b]9[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-07/single-edge-curved.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-10-0...edge-curved.jpg[/url]
[b]10[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-06/amra-fantasy-saber.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/11-16-...ntasy-saber.jpg[/url]
[b]11[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-06/curved-saber-w-fuller.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/7-19-0...er-w-fuller.jpg[/url]
[b]12[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/swords/4-17-06/saber-3.jpg[/url]
[b]13[/b]
[url="http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06/short-angular-fantasy-sword.jpg"]http://jodysamson.com/images/News/10-23-06...ntasy-sword.jpg[/url]
[b]14[/b]
[url="http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg"]http://www.eriksedge.com/images/Ph186Item.jpg[/url]

and here is something interesting i found in my search
[url="http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1"]http://www.barrettcustomknives.com/contemp_1[/url] "long claw"

[Venardhi]

#7 is pretty close to what I was thinking in the overall shape of the blade. Something like #8 could work if you swept the blade back further on the main curve of the blade.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Venardhi' post='1729026' date='Mar 21 2009, 21.38']#7 is pretty close to what I was thinking in the overall shape of the blade. Something like #8 could work if you swept the blade back further on the main curve of the blade.[/quote]

I concur. 7 and 8 are both the best out of that lot, though I'm somewhat disappointed that there weren't any more traditional scimitars or samshirs listed. Anyhow, both 7 and 8 would need to be elongated with the curve slightly more pronounced, I think. The impression I got from the book were these things were big. I personally like 8 better for it's lack of hard angles.