Lady Stoneheart (with Spoilers)

[Crown]

I personally think Martin kind of fucked up with Stoneheart and Cersei in AFFC.

Why? I think Lady Stoneheart was a pleasant surprise, and I don't understand what is wrong with Cersei?

[JonHo]

Why? I think Lady Stoneheart was a pleasant surprise, and I don't understand what is wrong with Cersei?

Cersei's craziness just seemed too sudden. I understand its because of the 5 year gap that was supposed to take place, but Cersei went from being this person to being a completely different person in less than one book.

[Crown]

Cersei's craziness just seemed too sudden. I understand its because of the 5 year gap that was supposed to take place, but Cersei went from being this person to being a completely different person in less than one book.

Really? I actually always thought about her as a paranoid woman, and expected that you would be able to sympathize with her because she received her own POV. Obviously that didn't happen, and I still consider her paranoid.

[the seventh direwolf]

Am I the only one who was gutted that out of all the characters GRRM could have resurrected, it had to be this annoying woman? I've hated her from the start. Her hatred for Jon Snow was irrational. Ok, he was a symbol of Ned's infidelity but her anger should have been more directed at her husband, not an innocent child.

All of her choices have been selfish. She stayed by Bran's side after he fell and neglected Rickon. She left her two youngest children to be with Robb, her favourite. She abducted Tyrion based on instincts causing war with the house of Lannister and their allies. The woman was a bloody catastrophy from the word go.

And now she is back as this voicless zombie hanging anyone and everyone. God I hate this woman!!

[addie]

I don't understand why everybody hates Catelyn. I don't think her choices were stupid or irrational. She decided to stay with Robb before he became King of the North, at a moment where she wasn't sure he was mature enough to be the leader of the North. She actually gave him good advices at Moat Caitlin, in a subtle way. She had to step back after he was crowned King of the North.

Her sizing of Tyrion wasn't that stupid as well, as she was traveling incognito and had to take the first step before Tyrion recognizes her and actually spread the word all around that she was a few days from King's Landing instead of WInterfell.

Lady Stoneheart came as a surprise (especially as I spoiled the Red Wedding for myself on wikipedia), but I have to say that this character is so different.

Regarding Cersei, I admit there is some weakness in GRR Martin's writing (but who am I really to judge that), even though I think there are bigger ones in the book (Catelyn freeing Jamie being one of the most un motivated one : here it is clearly about putting back Jaime on the tracks and inside the story).

[Crown]

I don't understand why everybody hates Catelyn. I don't think her choices were stupid or irrational. She decided to stay with Robb before he became King of the North, at a moment where she wasn't sure he was mature enough to be the leader of the North. She actually gave him good advices at Moat Caitlin, in a subtle way. She had to step back after he was crowned King of the North.

Her sizing of Tyrion wasn't that stupid as well, as she was traveling incognito and had to take the first step before Tyrion recognizes her and actually spread the word all around that she was a few days from King's Landing instead of WInterfell.

Lady Stoneheart came as a surprise (especially as I spoiled the Red Wedding for myself on wikipedia), but I have to say that this character is so different.

Regarding Cersei, I admit there is some weakness in GRR Martin's writing (but who am I really to judge that), even though I think there are bigger ones in the book (Catelyn freeing Jamie being one of the most un motivated one : here it is clearly about putting back Jaime on the tracks and inside the story).

I agree with everything, except your point of view on Cersei and Jaime. Could you elaborate on why Cersei is 'a weakness in writing'.

Catelyn freeing Jaime was just an act by a desperate woman, I agree it was to get Jaime back in the story, but it is motivated, and I understand it. Just as Karstark killed two Lannisters to avenge the death of his sons.

[addie]

I found Cersei's depiction a bit too paranoid. She is not that clumsy in a GoT when she "participated" in murdering Robert and sizing Ned.

Of course at that moment she wasn't a POV character, so it's difficult to say how she planned it.

But I like to read her part in comparision to Tyrion's part in aCoK, They are doing the same job but in such a different way.

Regarding Catelyn, maybe I did not express myself correctly, her decision to free Jaime is motivated, but I feel it's not developed enough, not explained and unsderstood, and I sometimes feel that all the hatred towards Catelyn comes from here

[Crown]

Regarding Catelyn, maybe I did not express myself correctly, her decision to free Jaime is motivated, but I feel it's not developed enough, not explained and unsderstood, and I sometimes feel that all the hatred towards Catelyn comes from here

Maybe it's difficult for me to understand why people hate her, since she's one of my favorite characters.

[addie]

I like Catelyn a lot too, I am probably influenced by the HBO serie as I saw it first, and the actress is doing a pretty good job.

[lyvyathan]

I found Cersei's depiction a bit too paranoid. She is not that clumsy in a GoT when she "participated" in murdering Robert and sizing Ned.

Of course at that moment she wasn't a POV character, so it's difficult to say how she planned it.

But I like to read her part in comparision to Tyrion's part in aCoK, They are doing the same job but in such a different way.

Regarding Catelyn, maybe I did not express myself correctly, her decision to free Jaime is motivated, but I feel it's not developed enough, not explained and unsderstood, and I sometimes feel that all the hatred towards Catelyn comes from here

Cersei is not as clumsy in GoT because she had LF in the background in KL directing the affairs (largely for his own purpose of course).

Once Cersei gets in total control as regent - and with LF somewhere else - she gets out of control.

Cersei and Catelyn are actual the same sort of character - one "good", the other "bad". GRRM unfortunately writes them to be emotional creatures prone to irrational actions. They do make some sensible choices but by and large they are just caricatures in GRRM's fantasy world.

[lyvyathan]

I like Catelyn a lot too, I am probably influenced by the HBO serie as I saw it first, and the actress is doing a pretty good job.

I liked the actress playing Catelyn in HBO too - and also the HBO writers mellowed out Cat a bit in the show, and even deleted her infamous line to Jon at Bran's bedside.

[David Selig]

Cersei is not as clumsy in GoT because she had LF in the background in KL directing the affairs (largely for his own purpose of course).

Once Cersei gets in total control as regent - and with LF somewhere else - she gets out of control.

Cersei and Catelyn are actual the same sort of character - one "good", the other "bad". GRRM unfortunately writes them to be emotional creatures prone to irrational actions. They do make some sensible choices but by and large they are just caricatures in GRRM's fantasy world.

Nonsense. Catelyn is one of the most rational characters in the series. Ned, Robb, Tyrion, Jaime, Theon, Balon, the Red Viper (to name just a few) - all of them are much more prone to choices based mostly on emotion. But I guess they don't count, since they are men.

[lyvyathan]

Nonsense. Catelyn is one of the most rational characters in the series. Ned, Robb, Tyrion, Jaime, Theon, Balon, the Red Viper (to name just a few) - all of them are much more prone to choices based mostly on emotion. But I guess they don't count, since they are men.

Lol. And you're not a man too?

You might note that the thread is on Lady Stoneheart - not on Balon, Jamie, or LF who also do some pretty dumb things based on emotions. Just because I didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[David Selig]

So you admit most other characters are caricatures too, being too emotional and illogical? Why keep reading the series then?

[ChrisWarg]

I'm on the side of Stoneheart, Cat lived a lot of horrors, for her there's nothing in the world jut vengeance; If she knew that all their daughters and suns (except Robb) are alive she wouldn't be so Stone Heart; for her all the Tully and Stark are dead, now vengeance to the really disgusting Frey and the prouds Lannister, is fair, i think that.

In AFfC i realised the pain in all the houses, and worst for the poor people. I really dislike POV's of the Iron Islands (i don't like the Greyjoy's brothers, Asha it's ok) and Dorne, please, Arys and Hotah with one chapters ewgh.

I know and hope ADwD will be awsome.

[Plem]

Her appearance in AFfc seemed horribly contrived to me. It's like GRRM forgot to write a pay off for the ASos prologue and put her somewhere in the story where she doesn't really fit. The way she handled the whole Brienne situation was just awkward. Catelyn has always been an idiot, but it seems that death and the lust for revenge have made her even more stupid. However, I do hope that Brienne is dead. Not that I don't like her, but because I think we have too many POV characters already and a death or two will help to clear the field a little bit.

[Gryz the BlackSmith]

Cersei and Catelyn are actual the same sort of character - one "good", the other "bad".

No. They are both bad. Very bad.

The two of them are responsible for the war that happens in the books of ASOIAF.

They both act very selfish. They want the best for their kids. And that means that nobody else matters. They'd kill a 1000 innocent people, just so their kids can get something. Cat started the whole war, by ceasing Tyrion. What the heck ? What do you expect when you grab the king's nephew, the heir to Casterling Rock. (Don't forget, Jamie is in the King's Guard. So Tyrion is in fact the heir to Casterling Rock. Even when Tywin didn't like it). Without any proof of who did what to Bran. For all she knew, Brann could have just fallen.

I don't need to explain how Cersei is just as bad. Everything to get her kids on the throne. She'd kill all of Westeros if she had to. All because of this noble goal of protecting her kids. Yeah, right.

I didn't dislike Cat that much when I watched the tv-series. But after I started reading the books, and you have more time to think about the story, it appeared to me what a rotten person Catelyn was. Just a vindictive bich. One thing that was very telling was what happened at the end of the Red Wedding. She kills Jinglebell, who was half-witted and innocent. A kid basically. All out of spite. If indeed she was such a kind person, and loved children, she would never have killed Jinglebell.

ASOIAF is basically about how women mess up the world. :)

Just check how many people died because of Daenerys's random actions. And I'm sure we haven't seen even half of the slaughtering she will do in the future. :)

[addie]

Cat started the whole war, by ceasing Tyrion.

So Not.

A billion of events lead to the war, and this was just one us. Cat seized Tyrion because Jaime pull off Bran from the tower, remember that ?

Plenty of other events could be pointed, Jon Arryn finding out tht thruht about Cersei and Jaime, LF using Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, etc, etc, etc

As for women messing up the world, do you think people wouldn't have died under Viserys ' command ? Robb, Tywin, Tyrion, the Hound, the Cleganes, just to name a few, are all women ?

[lyvyathan]

So you admit most other characters are caricatures too, being too emotional and illogical? Why keep reading the series then?

For the same reason as I like reading Charles Dickens books and many others. Just because they are caricatures doesn't necessarily mean that the story will be uninteresting. But just because I like the story does not necessarily also mean I show fanatical support for characters like Catelyn. She has her qualities no doubt but she also has terrible flaws too. I think if you acknowledge that it will help to make you appreciate the story a lot more.

[Hedge Lawyer]

Cersei is not as clumsy in GoT because she had LF in the background in KL directing the affairs (largely for his own purpose of course).

Once Cersei gets in total control as regent - and with LF somewhere else - she gets out of control.

Agreed. AFFC shows Cersei unleashed. She was still clever and conniving, she just didn't have a safety net. I thought that her Margery plot was pretty creative- much more intricate than her Robert plot. She just boxed herself in with her poor choices for High Septon and for her key council members.

I thought that Cersei was perfectly portrayed in AFFC. She's incredibly ambitious and cold blooded. She's very clever, but she's not as clever as she thinks she is. This is magnified by her haughtiness. She thinks thinks that she's too clever to be caught, and that is her downfall. She's not as clever as Tyrion, Varys, or Littlefinger, but she thinks that she is. Littlefinger comments on that in one of Sansa's chapters (something to the effect that Cersei thinks that she's a player, but she's really a pawn). Her paranoia further weakens her.

I really enjoyed the Cersei chapters. I think that's why I enjoyed AFFC, even though some parts (i.e. Brienne and especially Dorne) seemed to drag.

As for the topic at hand, I hope GRRM is going somewhere good with his Zombie Cat. Cat's death was poigniant. Why spoil it? Zombie Beric added an interesting twist, IMO, and I liked that it was good for the story to have someone standing resolutely for the common man. Zombie Cat seems pointless. There are plenty of bloodthirsty monsters in Westeros. Plus, I get the feeling that there's a Frankenstein's Monster version of the Mountain in the cells beneath King's Landing (that's Cersei's champion who she and Qyburn agree can't be beaten). Too many zombies risks giving this too much of a monster movie vibe. I think that GRRM is at his best when he's writing political intrigue with a hint of magic.