Why isn't Ned more famous/notorious for defeating Arthur Dayne?

[jblair]

Ned obviously isn't the type to brag about it or seek notoriety for it.

Then how does anyone at all know? Did Howland tweet it?

[bloodymime]

Then how does anyone at all know? Did Howland tweet it?

Ned took Dawn back to the Dayne family.

[Longspear Ryk]

Ned feela bad for killing them im sure.. Hes not the boastful type anyway and people know that

[LHX]

Ned Stark does not boast about what he has done, to much honor. And Lyanna died there too, that not glory. Ned isnt Robert.

[LHX]

Then how does anyone at all know? Did Howland tweet it?

I thin people close to Ned knows something about it. I think he told Robert he`s version of happening not "promise me Ned" part. Robert loved Lyanna so Ned needed told something about fight. Howland knows. And Ned give that famous sword back to Daynes family. Happening become myth....

[jblair]

It just amazes me that, considering all of the random stories people know about the Rebellion (kingslayer, rhaegar's rubies, etc), the killing of 3 KG (including the Realm's superhero) in the middle of nowhere by the future Warden of the North, and the death of the girl who supposedly started the war merits no interest or speculation. Wtf?

[Stark4life]

This might be a little crackpot but here it goes.

The story goes that 3 Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy and they were defeated by Howland Reed and Ned. But that's just a story. If either one or both killed the great Arthur Dayne, wouldn't it be known by everyone. What if only 2 were guarding the ToJ and were defeated. When Ned entered he seen Arthur and Ashara were with Lyanna giving birth. They left Ned alone with her while she died and found him holding her hand when they returned. Then they parted ways with the secret. Arthur and Ashara, across the Narrow Sea, Ned with his honor, and Reed secluded in the swamp.

This has probably been mentioned. I just find it odd that it is not as known that the story of how maybe the greatest knight ever was defeated. It would definitely explain the modesty. And go alone with the R+L=J theory.

[Ravenhair]

Don't we as readers only know that Ned brought back Dawn to Starfall from the kitchen gossip Carelyn heard? I'm not suggesting Ned did anything else; just wondering. As many posters have mentioned, I find it extremely odd that Jaime, who idolized Ser Arthur Dayne, does not once reflect about the ToJ or the fact that Ned killed Dayne.

[Ravenhair]

Which makes me wonder if something else happened.

[Faint]

As many posters have mentioned, I find it extremely odd that Jaime, who idolized Ser Arthur Dayne, does not once reflect about the ToJ or the fact that Ned killed Dayne.

Kind of how it's extremely odd that Ned never thinks about Jon Snow's mother?

In other words, the whole thing is simply a contrivance that is necessary to keep the identity of Jon's parents a mystery.

The same applies to Arianne Martell and how she never has any thoughts about Lyanna Stark, or what the hell Rhaegar was doing when he 'kidnapped' her.

[The Fallen]

Sure, it's not Ned's responsibility to account for the KG, but the KG being with Lyanna is one of the most pressing arguments in favour of R+L=J, and if that's the case, the very last thing Ned wants is people asking questions.

And if people didn't question Ned out of respect for him and his honour, surely his execution as a traitor would have changed that?

That must be the answer. Everyone accepts Ned's word because he was a high lord and he was known to be honorable. Nonetheless, I have always found it odd that no one ever expresses any suspicion about what went on at the TOJ. I expect that someone would say,"I know Ned's a good guy and all but that just doesn't sound right."

Of course it would lead to questions - lots of questions. Why the KG members weren't at the Battle of the Trident or with Aerys in KL? And how did Ned know to go to the TOJ to find Lyanna? Why doesn't anyone - including Aerys - question the whereabouts of Gerold Hightower, the LC, during all of this?

By the time of his execution, the events at the ToJ are a distant memory. It's been 15 years or so. I think the mystery means more to us than it does to the folks in Westeros. So much happened during Robert's Rebellion that the ToJ is probably not at the top of the list of important events. The list of who would want to know what really took place there is short. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard would want to know to record it in the their book and I think he would be the most interested in knowing why the Kingsguards were there. Robert would want to know because Lyanna was involved, but he would have no reason to suspect that any conspiracy was taking place. Robert also doesn't seem like the type to ponder any situation too seriously. I would think the Daynes would want to know what happened, assuming they don't already know. And of course the Starks.

But if we think about the other Houses involved during the Rebellion, which would have reason to suspect anything fishy was going on there? As far as they know it was Eddard going to get his sister. The Lannisters, Tyrells, Martells, Greyjoys, Tarlys, Hightowers, Gardeners, and so on, would not consider what happened at the ToJ important, especially in the aftermath of a cataclysmic event like the overthrow of the Targaryens and the repercussions and consequences of that event for all sides. Not too mention that everyone is trying to gain back some semblance of normalcy. Some might have found it odd, but not enough to go on a fact-finding mission.

Can anyone come up with reasons why any other Houses would suspect anything suspicious going on there? I would be interested in that list.

[Stark4life]

I don't think Ned would tell Barristan the details of the battle. Just an assumption but I think the book just says that Arthur Dayne was killed at the ToJ.

[Jem]

Can anyone come up with reasons why any other Houses would suspect anything suspicious going on there? I would be interested in that list.

I don't know that they would be suspicious, per se, but you would think that there would be gossip and speculation. People would want to know the fate of that naughty Stark girl who ran off with a prince. Did she die? How? Who killed her? Did Rhaegar kill her? Did her brother kill her? What happened to the 3KG? Ned Stark killed them?! How? Why? Under what circumstances?

It's not so much that people want to hold a grand inquiry into the whole affair, it is just that it would be natural for people to gossip and speculate and form their own (probably inaccurate) conclusions.

I think we just have to take it at face value that no one is the least bit curious about the fate of these few people who died right at the end of the war. Maybe GRRM will one day give us a plausible reason for this lack of curiosity - maybe Ned just spread around an amazingly good cover story and no one ever questioned it again - but until then all we know is that no one seems to care.

[Ravenhair]

@Faint--perhaps it is just a contrivance. I can understand, somewhat, the necessity for it with Ned's POV, to keep the identity of Jon's parents a mystery. However, in Jaime's case, we know he thinks of Ned a fair amount; we also know that he thinks about Ser Arthur Dayne, and he idolizes the man. I find it odd that never once do we read Jaime's thoughts wherein he thinks that Ned killed Dayne. Jaime wasn't at the ToJ, so I don't think it gives away anything for Jaime to think about Ned killing Dayne, even if it did not happen.

[StarkSupporter]

Kind of how it's extremely odd that Ned never thinks about Jon Snow's mother?

I think that Ned not thinking about whomever he slept with and Jon is her child, leads itself into Lyanna being Jon's mother.

The same applies to Arianne Martell and how she never has any thoughts about Lyanna Stark, or what the hell Rhaegar was doing when he 'kidnapped' her.

Part of this may be because of the attitude the Dornish have about sex, We know that they are okay with paramours, and such, so perhaps for all we know the Martells simply look at Lyanna as Rhaegar's paramour, which is why we never see any of the Martells have a problem with Ned, but rather with the Lannisters, who killed Elia and children.

[The Fallen]

I don't know that they would be suspicious, per se, but you would think that there would be gossip and speculation. People would want to know the fate of that naughty Stark girl who ran off with a prince. Did she die? How? Who killed her? Did Rhaegar kill her? Did her brother kill her? What happened to the 3KG? Ned Stark killed them?! How? Why? Under what circumstances?

It's not so much that people want to hold a grand inquiry into the whole affair, it is just that it would be natural for people to gossip and speculate and form their own (probably inaccurate) conclusions.

I think we just have to take it at face value that no one is the least bit curious about the fate of these few people who died right at the end of the war. Maybe GRRM will one day give us a plausible reason for this lack of curiosity - maybe Ned just spread around an amazingly good cover story and no one ever questioned it again - but until then all we know is that no one seems to care.

I agree that some scuttlebutt would arise. And I also agree that overall, it just doesn't seem like a significant event to most Westerosi. Obviously, as readers, we have more facts about what happened and of course there's the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon theory. And if that theory is correct, then what happened at the ToJ is a very significant incident, along with Aegon being switched at the last moment (if that's true).

[Faint]

@Faint--perhaps it is just a contrivance. I can understand, somewhat, the necessity for it with Ned's POV, to keep the identity of Jon's parents a mystery. However, in Jaime's case, we know he thinks of Ned a fair amount; we also know that he thinks about Ser Arthur Dayne, and he idolizes the man. I find it odd that never once do we read Jaime's thoughts wherein he thinks that Ned killed Dayne. Jaime wasn't at the ToJ, so I don't think it gives away anything for Jaime to think about Ned killing Dayne, even if it did not happen.

Well, see, that line of thinking ends up opening the entire Pandora's box.

How did Ned Stark defeat Arthur Dayne? Why were the Kingsguard even there? Hey, wait, Ned came back from the South with a baby . . .

Basically, GRRM wants to keep this entire subject out of sight and out of mind. That is why nobody ever thinks about the subject even though all the pieces are there to put it together.

[Ravenhair]

@Faint--Your line of reasoning from a writer's perspective makes sense. To me, though, depending on what the facts ultimately turn out to be, it isn't very plausible to not have Jaime think about Ned killing Arthur Dayne, particularly in light of Jaime's and Ned's direct confrontation in AGoT and Jaime's vow in ASoS not to take up arms against Starks or Tullys again.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Based on the story 3 of the finest knights in the realm were slain by 6 nameless knights and Ned Stark. Ned doesn't enter tournaments. He's isn't loud or boisterous and besides being a high lord he probably isn't particularly well known by the common folk, definitely not well loved(though probably not hated either). It would be a serious stretch to make him seem a hero worthy of a bards song, and what story worth listening to has no hero?

If he traveled more or was involved in tournaments I'm sure his legend would spread, but he stays up in the North, and obviously Sir Howland Reed is the same way.

[LHX]

Win or Lose that fight it didnt have any affect to final outcome of war. Maybe possible who is queen (if Lyanna would survive) But that is just speculation.