Why isn't Ned more famous/notorious for defeating Arthur Dayne?

[Jaak]

Yes, a number of people, like Varys and Tywin, would be curious and suspect the official explanation of Eddard. But the problem is, they have no source of information besides Howland who is completely incommunicado and Eddard who is under no duty to tell them what he does not want to tell.

The only man who is in position to demand answers from Eddard is Robert, as his king, his friend and Lyanna´s fiancee. So if Eddard´s story satisfies Robert....

[Pope Killdragon]

Because it was seven to three and that's not really dishonorable nor the chivalrous, gallant type of odds the bards sing of.

[Valmorfëa]

It's because Arthur isn't actually dead! :D

I'm guessing that your average Westerosi isn't aware of the Tower of Joy or what happened there. I'm quite curious how the hell Ned knew Lyanna was there in the first place.

This might be a little crackpot but here it goes.

The story goes that 3 Kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy and they were defeated by Howland Reed and Ned. But that's just a story. If either one or both killed the great Arthur Dayne, wouldn't it be known by everyone. What if only 2 were guarding the ToJ and were defeated. When Ned entered he seen Arthur and Ashara were with Lyanna giving birth. They left Ned alone with her while she died and found him holding her hand when they returned. Then they parted ways with the secret. Arthur and Ashara, across the Narrow Sea, Ned with his honor, and Reed secluded in the swamp.

This has probably been mentioned. I just find it odd that it is not as known that the story of how maybe the greatest knight ever was defeated. It would definitely explain the modesty. And go alone with the R+L=J theory.

I like this theory! Especially because I honestly have trouble believing that three intelligent, valiant knights would think that Ned had showed up to kill his own sister?! And that they couldn't come to a compromise? They fought and died for the same thing. Wtf? And Lyanna was in the chamber DYING, while the three guys stood outside? What's the point of being there if she's basically dead anyway? So they could carry a newborn for who knows for how long on horseback to Starfall? So many questions and fishy "facts".

[corbon]

I'm quite curious how the hell Ned knew Lyanna was there in the first place.

We all are. Best theory, but still lacking strong evidence, is through Ashara Dayne.

I like this theory! Especially because I honestly have trouble believing that three intelligent, valiant knights would think that Ned had showed up to kill his own sister?! And that they couldn't come to a compromise? They fought and died for the same thing. Wtf? And Lyanna was in the chamber DYING, while the three guys stood outside? What's the point of being there if she's basically dead anyway? So they could carry a newborn for who knows for how long on horseback to Starfall? So many questions and fishy "facts".

They don't believe that Ned showed up to kill his sister. Lyanna is irrelevant, more or less.

Its Jon, the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who is King, who they are protecting. And thogh they may suspect Ned might not harm his nephew Jon, given he was at KL and therefore complicit in the murders of Jon's brother Aegon and sister Rhaenys, they simply cannot take the risk and allow Ned access.

Lyanna is dying due to childbirth complications, which they can do nothing about. But her life or death makes no difference to protecting the baby King (Jon) from his avowed and baby-killing enemies (Ned).

There are no 'fishy facts' here, and few questions. Its a fairly straitforward scene if you pay attention and put the clues together, though so many people fail to do so.

Or at least, there don't have to be. The logical fish-free theories could be wrong. GRRM, who is the master of putting together internally consistent scenes and plots, could possibly have made a total mess of this one.

I prefer to believe that he used the logical and fish-free solution though.

[Valmorfëa]

They don't believe that Ned showed up to kill his sister. Lyanna is irrelevant, more or less.

Its Jon, the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna who is King, who they are protecting. And thogh they may suspect Ned might not harm his nephew Jon, given he was at KL and therefore complicit in the murders of Jon's brother Aegon and sister Rhaenys, they simply cannot take the risk and allow Ned access.

Lyanna is dying due to childbirth complications, which they can do nothing about. But her life or death makes no difference to protecting the baby King (Jon) from his avowed and baby-killing enemies (Ned).

There are no 'fishy facts' here, and few questions. Its a fairly straitforward scene if you pay attention and put the clues together, though so many people fail to do so.

Or at least, there don't have to be. The logical fish-free theories could be wrong. GRRM, who is the master of putting together internally consistent scenes and plots, could possibly have made a total mess of this one.

I prefer to believe that he used the logical and fish-free solution though.

I still think they could have... talked about it? I don't know, it doesn't seem as if Ned even tried to tell them that his sister mattered to him more than his fealty to Robert? Furthermore, Ned couldn't have known about Jon when he arrived at the ToJ, so Lyanna is not irrelevant, as Ned came for her. To me it just seems strange that some of the best knights in Westeros died pointlessly, and I also find it odd that someone like Ned would let that happen; especially considering how he condemned Robert for killing Elia and her children.

To be fair, it isn't clear whether Jon is legitimate, so there's a fishy fact : P if he isn't, then Viserys is the heir.

[Budj]

I also have a crack pot theory that Dayne isn't dead but is Mance (lol) - or that Rhaegar and Dayne glamour switched and Dayne was who Robert slew on the trident (double lol).

More interesting to me...and what I think is hinted by Ned Dayne's interest in comparing himself to Jon.....is that I think Dawn was never brought back to Starfall. If Dawn is instead in Lyanna's tomb, that would be proof to the realm that House Dayne was aware of the lineage and supports Jon as the legitimate heir since everyone knows that Arthur and Rhaeger were bffs.

And that also explains why Darkstar is such an emo...he wanted the sword and no one would give it to him.

[kapman]

I had a theory* about this a while ago that there is no way that 3 KGs and numerous lords (plus a high lord's daughter) died in one place (with the survivor being another high lord) and no one knows about it. Sure Ned would want to be quiet about it, but seriously, the White Book, the maesters, the general population even... people would want to know what happened... these aren't exactly nobody's we're dealing with here and I don't think people would accept Ned just not answering.

*The theory was that Sam will realize R+L=J while researching the rebellion or history of House Stark in Oldtown, read about ToJ, and piece it together...

[Valmorfëa]

If Dawn is instead in Lyanna's tomb, that would be proof to the realm that House Dayne was aware of the lineage and supports Jon as the legitimate heir since everyone knows that Arthur and Rhaeger were bffs.

What a waste of a perfectly good sword!

But no, the Daynes have nothing to do with Lyanna and the sword rightly belongs to their family.

[jblair]

So what does Robert believe happened to Lyanna? Certainly, Robert at the very least would demand to know what happened to his betrothed. Even if no one in Westeros cared about the fate of the wolf princess who started it all (which I seriously doubt), Robert certainly would have. As would Cersei, considering how their wedding-bedding played out. After all, Lyanna not only found her crush Rhaegar's favor (either through love or kidnap), she also haunted Robert's desires.

Did Ned lie and say she was murdered by Rhaegar? He was already dead, so this wouldn't work.

Did he say she was murdered by the Kingsguard? If so, why isn't the prevailing narrative the one where the Superhero Sword of the Morning helped to kill a helpless princess?

Did he say she died in childbirth (via Rhaegar-rape) and then lie about the fate of the child? Only Robert would be thick enough not to put 2 and 2 together. If Cersei knew that Lyanna was pregnant, her scheming mind would not just accept the fact that the kid (potential Targeryen heir!) died in childbirth and coincidentally honorable Ned now has a newborn bastard.

[Khal Pono]

So what does Robert believe happened to Lyanna? Certainly, Robert at the very least would demand to know what happened to his betrothed. Even if no one in Westeros cared about the fate of the wolf princess who started it all (which I seriously doubt), Robert certainly would have. As would Cersei, considering how their wedding-bedding played out. After all, Lyanna not only found her crush Rhaegar's favor (either through love or kidnap), she also haunted Robert's desires.

Did Ned lie and say she was murdered by Rhaegar? He was already dead, so this wouldn't work.

Did he say she was murdered by the Kingsguard? If so, why isn't the prevailing narrative the one where the Superhero Sword of the Morning helped to kill a helpless princess?

Did he say she died in childbirth (via Rhaegar-rape) and then lie about the fate of the child? Only Robert would be thick enough not to put 2 and 2 together. If Cersei knew that Lyanna was pregnant, her scheming mind would not just accept the fact that the kid (potential Targeryen heir!) died in childbirth and coincidentally honorable Ned now has a newborn bastard.

Maybe she slipped and fell. The terrain around the ToJ is very rocky.

[Pope Killdragon]

This whole compromise theory is the most crack pot theory I've ever heard. Their Kingdom was falling, their King dead and as far as they were concerned, Eddard was just as much a Usurper as Lord Robert. A knight of the Kingsgard serves for life. Whatever they thought Ned's intentions were, they had orders to let no one into the Tower. They died on those orders and this theory, this nonsense kinda takes away from their deaths and kills the whole sad beauty of the event. Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Oswell Whent died defending the Tower Of Joy from Ned Stark and Howland Reed.

[TheNorthernWarrior]

Interesting thread but also think people are complicating it more than needed. I don't think its a huge mystery to most people of the Seven Kingdoms considering the circumstances leading up to the ToJ event.

- Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna, starts the war

- Rhaegar essentially goes into hiding, with Lyanna and a few the Kingsguard

- Brandon and Rickard Stark are murdered, triggering the rebellion

- Half way through the rebellion (after a few battles have already been fought) Rhaegar finally show ups but with no Lyanna and a few Kingsguard missing but with 10k Dornish Troops

- Rhaegar joins up with the rest of the loyalist army and marches north for the final battle and loses and is killed

- Rebels then march on Kings Landing, Lannisters kill all the Targ related people

- Ned is pissed that Robert lets them kill at the woman and kids, and storms off to finish the last loyalist Army at Storms End. At this point he isn't on all that great of terms with Robert.

- Ned lifts the siege on Storms End, accepts surrender of the last loyalist armies (mostly Lords from the Reach)

- At some point Ned must learn where the final 3 KG and Lyanna are, remember that he mentions before their fight that he was looking for them at each battle so far. So obviously he would have been asking the Reach Lords after their surrender what they know about said whereabouts.

- So Ned finds out where they are and takes his closest Northern friends

- Fight at ToJ happens, the KG are killed.

- Ned returns the Dayne family sword, something they would have really respected him for.

- Ned returns to North, stops at KL to tell Robert that Lyanna is dead. Clearly Robert would have asked him what happened. Given the state of their relationship at the time, and that Ned just buried his sister. I am sure he kept is answers short to the simple facts that Lyanna is dead, the 3 KG is dead, and he is going home. Done.

Not much of a mystery to most people, They were guarding the stark girl to their deaths on orders from Rhaegar. While I am sure some of the high lords might have been interested in more details there are simply no where to get them. Two men know the answers. Ned Stark, Warden of the North, a quiet and cold man, not really a man you can just start asking questions and chat with and he doesn't have to answer to anyone but Robert, who given their relationship just accepted Neds short answers. The other Howland Reed... Lord of the most mysterious people in the seven kingdoms. People can't even find his "castle" greywater watch so forgot about asking him. So I am guessing the common people and most Lords not involved just accept the story as given. I am sure some like Tywin, Varys, etc. have their own thoughts but aren't ones to publicly go about finding answers. The only people who would be more motivated to find out the answers would be the family of the KG who could potentially hold a grudge, as these aren't just regular hedge knights they are high lords. We know house Whent is pretty much dead, with not many survivors of the Rebellion or atleast none to that would dare question the Warden of the North. With returning the sword to the Daynes, Ned pretty much much seals any wounds there and they also seem like and an old honourable house not interested in gossiping. That leaves the Hightowers. They seem like a well connected powerful house in the Reach, with strong backing from the Tyrells. So they may be in the position to say "hey, what happened here". But you have to remember that Ned Stark had just defeated the Reach army that was laying siege to Storms End. The reach lords are lucky to be alive and allowed to return to their lands. They just lost a war. They are in no position to raise a fuss. Maybe they still hold a grudge, hard to know as I don't think we are exposed to much of the Reach yet. Maybe we will find out more now that Sam is there. The other thing is the inner circle of Reach Lords might know exactly what was happening at the ToJ between Rhaegar and Lyanna (remember someone had to tell Ned where to go) and maybe they decided to just keep it to themselves. Remember they are playing the game of thrones as well and had just lost a major battle, maybe it was better to just stay quiet about it. Again, might find out more about this now with Sam in that region. Also, hasn't the current Lord Hightower not left his tower in a decade? Could very well be more intrigue to learn.

But I do think its odd we don't hear much about Ned Starks reputation around the seven kingdoms more. It may have to do with the fact that the southerners probably just view the Northerners as a bit akin to Barbarians. The North follows an old religion, don't have knights, tourneys etc. there just isn't a lot of interaction I just doubt the south give much thought to the northerners in general.

[corbon]

I still think they could have... talked about it? I don't know, it doesn't seem as if Ned even tried to tell them that his sister mattered to him more than his fealty to Robert? Furthermore, Ned couldn't have known about Jon when he arrived at the ToJ, so Lyanna is not irrelevant, as Ned came for her. To me it just seems strange that some of the best knights in Westeros died pointlessly, and I also find it odd that someone like Ned would let that happen; especially considering how he condemned Robert for killing Elia and her children.

What is there to talk about? The baby King is in the tower. One of the leaders of the rebellion, a man present when the babe's elder siblings, babe's themselves, were brutally murdered, rides up.

Anyone who thinks the KG should have tried talking to Ned and then letting him into the tower fails basic KG-ing. F-

Lyanna is irrelevant for the KG. Their primary duty is the King.

And they didn't die 'pointlessly'. They died trying to fulfil their vows. THey nearly succeeded. In their failure, their King lost his birthright and was turned into a bastard, scorned by society generally (though he has it pretty good really).

To be fair, it isn't clear whether Jon is legitimate, so there's a fishy fact : P if he isn't, then Viserys is the heir.

It is clear, once a little thought is applied. The KG did not make any effort to go defend Viserys. They clearly intimated their vows were here, at the ToJ. That means Viserys is not their king and their king is here at ToJ, and the only really reasonable explanation there is a simple marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna making Jon legitimate and therefore ahead of Viserys in the succession.

There are other more crackpot possibilities, but all of them involve the true King being at TOJ, or the 3KG not actually being honourable and not upholding their vos, despite their words.

I had a theory* about this a while ago that there is no way that 3 KGs and numerous lords (plus a high lord's daughter) died in one place (with the survivor being another high lord) and no one knows about it. Sure Ned would want to be quiet about it, but seriously, the White Book, the maesters, the general population even... people would want to know what happened... these aren't exactly nobody's we're dealing with here and I don't think people would accept Ned just not answering.

*The theory was that Sam will realize R+L=J while researching the rebellion or history of House Stark in Oldtown, read about ToJ, and piece it together...

1. Why would they want to know what happened? There has just been a brutal civil war. There has been death and destruction everywhere. Hundreds, thousands even, of people are simply missing. If AFfC taught us anything it was that the general populace simply don't care about the doings of the lords, except as it affects them directly, and that war is a shitty, destructive business where all sorts of horrible things happen and remain unanswered or unaccounted for. Most people just want to get on with rebuilding, not drag up ghosts from the past, and those very few who want to drag up these ghosts either have no place to start or a vested interest in keeping quiet.

2. Even if they want to know, where are they to start finding out? Why would they even ask Ned? All that is known by even a few, is that Dayne missed the entire war, Highgarden (and probably Whent) went on a mission to find Rhaegar, apparently succeeded, and was/were never seen again. We don;t even know if it is widely known that Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes.

So what does Robert believe happened to Lyanna? Certainly, Robert at the very least would demand to know what happened to his betrothed. Even if no one in Westeros cared about the fate of the wolf princess who started it all (which I seriously doubt), Robert certainly would have. As would Cersei, considering how their wedding-bedding played out. After all, Lyanna not only found her crush Rhaegar's favor (either through love or kidnap), she also haunted Robert's desires.

Did Ned lie and say she was murdered by Rhaegar? He was already dead, so this wouldn't work.

Did he say she was murdered by the Kingsguard? If so, why isn't the prevailing narrative the one where the Superhero Sword of the Morning helped to kill a helpless princess?

Did he say she died in childbirth (via Rhaegar-rape) and then lie about the fate of the child? Only Robert would be thick enough not to put 2 and 2 together. If Cersei knew that Lyanna was pregnant, her scheming mind would not just accept the fact that the kid (potential Targeryen heir!) died in childbirth and coincidentally honorable Ned now has a newborn bastard.

He doesn't need to say anything much. He found her dead, she died in his arms, whatever. Robert is most decidedly not a details guy. He wants to remember the 'purity of his their love' sort of fantasy, not know the gritty, dirty details.

Interesting thread but also think people are complicating it more than needed. I don't think its a huge mystery to most people of the Seven Kingdoms considering the circumstances leading up to the ToJ event.

- Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna, starts the war

- Rhaegar essentially goes into hiding, with Lyanna and a few the Kingsguard

- Brandon and Rickard Stark are murdered, triggering the rebellion

- Half way through the rebellion (after a few battles have already been fought) Rhaegar finally show ups but with no Lyanna and a few Kingsguard missing but with 10k Dornish Troops

- Rhaegar joins up with the rest of the loyalist army and marches north for the final battle and loses and is killed

- Rebels then march on Kings Landing, Lannisters kill all the Targ related people

- Ned is pissed that Robert lets them kill at the woman and kids, and storms off to finish the last loyalist Army at Storms End. At this point he isn't on all that great of terms with Robert.

- Ned lifts the siege on Storms End, accepts surrender of the last loyalist armies (mostly Lords from the Reach)

- At some point Ned must learn where the final 3 KG and Lyanna are, remember that he mentions before their fight that he was looking for them at each battle so far. So obviously he would have been asking the Reach Lords after their surrender what they know about said whereabouts.

- So Ned finds out where they are and takes his closest Northern friends

- Fight at ToJ happens, the KG are killed.

- Ned returns the Dayne family sword, something they would have really respected him for.

- Ned returns to North, stops at KL to tell Robert that Lyanna is dead. Clearly Robert would have asked him what happened. Given the state of their relationship at the time, and that Ned just buried his sister. I am sure he kept is answers short to the simple facts that Lyanna is dead, the 3 KG is dead, and he is going home. Done.

Not much of a mystery to most people,

I very much doubt even that much is known.

I doubt the general populace know anything about Lyanna. She didn't start the war, and wasn't involved in events that started the war. Brandon didn't even mention her name when trying to call out Rhaegar and teh war started because after murdering Brandon and Rickard, Aerys called for the heads of Robert and Ned, and Jon Arryn refused.

Don't fall for Robert's bullshit about going to war to get back Lyanna - that's his fantasy as much as how much he loved her and so on. He didn't go to war at all initially, Jon Arryn did, when Aerys called for Robert's head, which is a considerable time after the 'abduction' of Lyanna.

There is no evidence anyone knows about the ToJ fight.

There is no evidence that anyone outside the Daynes and maybe some Winterfell people know anything about Ned returning Dawn even.

There is no reason why Ned would ever mention the ToJ of the 3KG to Robert, or anyone else. Even his mention to Bran about Arthur Dayne is indirect and discreet.

[jblair]

Interesting thread but also think people are complicating it more than needed. I don't think its a huge mystery to most people of the Seven Kingdoms considering the circumstances leading up to the ToJ event.

- Rhaegar "kidnaps" Lyanna, starts the war

- Rhaegar essentially goes into hiding, with Lyanna and a few the Kingsguard

- Brandon and Rickard Stark are murdered, triggering the rebellion

- Half way through the rebellion (after a few battles have already been fought) Rhaegar finally show ups but with no Lyanna and a few Kingsguard missing but with 10k Dornish Troops

- Rhaegar joins up with the rest of the loyalist army and marches north for the final battle and loses and is killed

- Rebels then march on Kings Landing, Lannisters kill all the Targ related people

- Ned is pissed that Robert lets them kill at the woman and kids, and storms off to finish the last loyalist Army at Storms End. At this point he isn't on all that great of terms with Robert.

- Ned lifts the siege on Storms End, accepts surrender of the last loyalist armies (mostly Lords from the Reach)

- At some point Ned must learn where the final 3 KG and Lyanna are, remember that he mentions before their fight that he was looking for them at each battle so far. So obviously he would have been asking the Reach Lords after their surrender what they know about said whereabouts.

- So Ned finds out where they are and takes his closest Northern friends

- Fight at ToJ happens, the KG are killed.

- Ned returns the Dayne family sword, something they would have really respected him for.

- Ned returns to North, stops at KL to tell Robert that Lyanna is dead. Clearly Robert would have asked him what happened. Given the state of their relationship at the time, and that Ned just buried his sister. I am sure he kept is answers short to the simple facts that Lyanna is dead, the 3 KG is dead, and he is going home. Done.

Not much of a mystery to most people, They were guarding the stark girl to their deaths on orders from Rhaegar. While I am sure some of the high lords might have been interested in more details there are simply no where to get them. Two men know the answers. Ned Stark, Warden of the North, a quiet and cold man, not really a man you can just start asking questions and chat with and he doesn't have to answer to anyone but Robert, who given their relationship just accepted Neds short answers. The other Howland Reed... Lord of the most mysterious people in the seven kingdoms. People can't even find his "castle" greywater watch so forgot about asking him. So I am guessing the common people and most Lords not involved just accept the story as given. I am sure some like Tywin, Varys, etc. have their own thoughts but aren't ones to publicly go about finding answers. The only people who would be more motivated to find out the answers would be the family of the KG who could potentially hold a grudge, as these aren't just regular hedge knights they are high lords. We know house Whent is pretty much dead, with not many survivors of the Rebellion or atleast none to that would dare question the Warden of the North. With returning the sword to the Daynes, Ned pretty much much seals any wounds there and they also seem like and an old honourable house not interested in gossiping. That leaves the Hightowers. They seem like a well connected powerful house in the Reach, with strong backing from the Tyrells. So they may be in the position to say "hey, what happened here". But you have to remember that Ned Stark had just defeated the Reach army that was laying siege to Storms End. The reach lords are lucky to be alive and allowed to return to their lands. They just lost a war. They are in no position to raise a fuss. Maybe they still hold a grudge, hard to know as I don't think we are exposed to much of the Reach yet. Maybe we will find out more now that Sam is there. The other thing is the inner circle of Reach Lords might know exactly what was happening at the ToJ between Rhaegar and Lyanna (remember someone had to tell Ned where to go) and maybe they decided to just keep it to themselves. Remember they are playing the game of thrones as well and had just lost a major battle, maybe it was better to just stay quiet about it. Again, might find out more about this now with Sam in that region. Also, hasn't the current Lord Hightower not left his tower in a decade? Could very well be more intrigue to learn.

But I do think its odd we don't hear much about Ned Starks reputation around the seven kingdoms more. It may have to do with the fact that the southerners probably just view the Northerners as a bit akin to Barbarians. The North follows an old religion, don't have knights, tourneys etc. there just isn't a lot of interaction I just doubt the south give much thought to the northerners in general.

That's a great post.

[Rumbl3z@th3Trid3nt]

That entire scene is very hush hush, Ned never talked about what happened there so I don't think people know he and Howland were personally responsible for killing 3 KG, people probably just assume he went south with a much larger force, but it is kinda weird now that you bring it up. It's probably just an oversight by George though honestly.

Much larger force?....well after he forced Jaime Lannister to give up the throne Ned (who was leading Roberts van) then went south the break the seige of Storms end,then after the Tyrells and the Redwynes bent the knee he left with 6 of his closest companions (Lords William Dustin,Theo Wull and Howland Reed. Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel and Ser Mark Ryswell), which would make Neds total force 7. 7vs 3 isnt what you would say staggering odds especially when you count the three as neing the best knights in all of westeros...i believe people dont talk about ned as being the "one" to kill Arthur Dayne because , one: Ned rearly spoke about his crossing of swords with the final three Taragaryn loyalists , and two becasue he himself would have been killed if it werent for Howland Reed interfearing ...perhaps he feels as though he killed him in a dishonourable way?...the point is that it wasnt as if Ned came to the tower of joy with all his bannermen...he came with 6 of his closest companions.

[The Fallen]

Err, the point is that a bunch of people are complaining about exactly that. The complaint is that this is a fail by GRRM becuase there are quite a few clever and important people whom this would not satisfy. A 'majority' is not enough. It would stir the curiosity of people like Varys, Tywin, and who knows who else, and lead to further questions, which are noticably absent.

The simple answer is that Ned didn't tell people this. He simply didn't say anything. That fits Neds character and actions slightly better and solves all the 'problems' people have with the current situation.

If by 'a bunch of people' you mean readers, then that's an unfair critique of GRRM. He's telling a story and he wants to tell it a certain way. As readers we have access to Ned's dream and a lot of time to come up with theories about what really happened. I'll say that the whole story will eventually be revealed. My argument is against a fail because GRRM has done enough with the plot to make the situation believable.

I'll agree that it's interesting that Varys would not know about Rheagar's involvement with Lyanna and also that he wouldn't look to find out what actually happened afterwards. Tywin might have wondered why Rhaegar was dealing with Lyanna, but in the aftermath of the war he has no reason to concern himself with a minor event ( like the Tower of Joy.

[PrinceHenryris]

As I was going through this thread, I started wondering. What was the actual level of slaughter at the ToJ?

I'd assume that Rhaeghar didn't leave Lyanna without servants, nor do I believe that three KG went anywhere without squires and/or other retainers. While the three vs. seven story sounds good, it could easily have been different. We also don't know what Ned had to do to keep his "promise" to Lyanna.

For me, it's not inconceivable that a whole bunch of ToJ servants were killed to keep things quiet. Maybe, even some of the seven were killed by Ned or Howland because they couldn't be trusted to keep the secret.

[bloodymime]

Because it was seven to three and that's not really dishonorable nor the chivalrous, gallant type of odds the bards sing of.

This would depend on what people know or think though and we just have idea since there's only Cersei throwing it in his face that he killed Dayne and then there's Ned's people who "whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat."

So who knows the truth? Does anyone outside the people who were there? While all Ned's soldiers go back north with him they're likely incredibly proud of their young lord and would have boasted of this to every person they came across on the march north even if they went straight home instead of having to go back to KL as Ned would probably have a part to play in everything getting sorted out by the new regime.

[three-eyed monkey]

This is a great question. I think even the singers don't know enough about Dayne's death to write songs about it. The fact is we, the readers, know little enough about the ToJ but we still know more than the smallfolk and every single living character, Howland Reed excluded. But what exactly do we know? GRRM kept it sparse and ambiguous, for good reason I suspect...

We know Ned rode to the tower with 6 friends. We know that there were 3 KG, and they spoke about where Ned had thought to find them, and then the fight began in a rush of steel. We know that Arthur Dayne would have killed Ned but for Howland Reed. Interestingly, that does not have to mean Howland Reed killed Dayne, or even interviened with a weapon. Reed could have said something to stop the fight. We simply have no information on Daynes death. Did Ned kill him? Howland? Did he kill himself? We don't even know he is dead. In Ned's dream he says 7 rode up, to face 3 KG, and 2 rode away. Is that 2 of the 7 of 2 of the 10? Anyway the dream jumps to Lyanna in the bed of blood after that, no more mention of Dayne, nothing since he said, 'And so it begins.'

Ned brought Dawn to Starfall and spoke with Ashara who might or might not have thrown herself into the sea, adding to the mystery. We're never told what happened Daynes body. Ned tore down the ToJ and made headstones, (2 or 3?), to mark their graves, or was it where they fell?

Of course there must have been questions back in KL. Ned would have had some time to come up with a story as he went via Starfall. Barristan, at least, would have wanted to update the White Book, can't rememer if there was an entry when Jamie read it??? But that story, be it true or false, would be the official version as far as any of the characters knew, like the household in Winterfell, Cersei, or Barristan.

Who knows if Dayne's alive or dead? No one can be certain because, IIRC, there is not one line of script from a reliable source, namely Ned and Howland, that describes Dayne's death. Or is there? I'm more than happy to stand corrected. I don't have the books at hand. The above is just from what I remember.

[The Fallen]

Of course there must have been questions back in KL. Ned would have had some time to come up with a story as he went via Starfall.

This is the story:

We know Ned rode to the tower with 6 friends. We know that there were 3 KG, and they spoke about where Ned had thought to find them, and then the fight began in a rush of steel.

And the reason he was there was to rescue his beloved sister. I've been arguing that should suffice for most folks, as they would have had no reason to suspect that any sort of conspiracy was taking place at the Tower of Joy.