The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[Slick Mongoose]

I know we're all about pouring over everything Pat says in search for clues, but this does seem a touch creepy.

[jumbles]

I know we're all about pouring over everything Pat says in search for clues, but this does seem a touch creepy.

Ah, thanks for saying that. I'll get rid of the link for the tab (and actually that tab was from a part much earlier in the video). I'm going to leave in The Alchemy Web Site though, since it is relevant/helpful and Pat's remarks made it sound like he wasn't concerned with us seeing his bookmarks.

So I'm not going to take a closer look at the bookmarks and tabs after all since there likely won't be anything I can make out as helpful as the alchemy site.

[jumbles]

Oh, I forgot to mention Kilvin's appearance. In one of the videos, Pat said that Kilvin has dark or black skin, but does not look African or like any race, ethnicity, or group of people from our world. He looks Cealdish, which does not exist in our world.

[thistlepong]

I know we're all about pouring over everything Pat says in search for clues, but this does seem a touch creepy.

Well, there is that; now that you've said it. I was sorta hoping to see another bookmark semi-related to alchemy, but levity is enough to balance on.

Oh, I forgot to mention Kilvin's appearance. In one of the videos, Pat said that Kilvin has dark or black skin, but does not look African or like any race, ethnicity, or group of people from our world. He looks Cealdish, which does not exist in our world.

One of my questions from the Tor Admissions Interview:

Would Kilvin and Wil likely be portrayed by black actors if there were a screen version?

I don’t know why this one is listed under “Medica” but yes, absolutely.

Interesting qualifier, though

[Nisheeth]

I was looking at the kickstarter page (the one jumbles linked). Something I noticed in Kvothe's card. On the top half, we have the mounting board with Folly written on it. On the bottom half of the card, we have the same board, but it says Wary instead of Folly.

[thistlepong]

I've mentioned before that a chance encounter with a reader who owned the first printing of the trade paperback revealed a sort of odd, crucial change in the text. Some dialogue followed and it came out that only that version had that, and other, changes. The mass market paperback dropped awhile back and I managed to pick up the first printing. And lo, there were the changes again. Anyway, this is the driest sort of geekery that some folks might be interested in.

Eratta-tat-tat!

Part One

Chapter Titles: WMF

Printings:

HC - confirmed

Kindle - confirmed

MMPB (1st) - confirmed

TP (1st) - reported

TP (2nd on) - reported

MMPB (2nd on) - unavailable

ARC - as posted on the Rothfuss Reread

Chapter titles are identical except for:

103 - Close Enough to Touch (HC, Kindle, TP 2nd printing and higher)

103 - Lessons (TP 1st printing, MMPB first printing)

124 - Of Names (HC, Kindle)^{seeking reported confirmation of TP (2nd on)}

124 - Secrets and Mysteries (MMPB 1st printing)^{seeking reported confirmation of TP (!st)}

The ARC is identical until Chapter 96, at which point several chapters appear to be combined, some under different titles, ultimately realigning with the others at 119 with When Words Fail, which is Chapter 121 in all other versions. Jo Walton began using the Kindle version around that point, though, and there’s some confusion about whether the information after that is entirely accurate.

[aczh]

I've just finished reading over the reread at tor.com. Definitely a bunch of good insights there. Although it did get nasty when you introduced that blog post thistle. :P

The people at tor.com made a big deal over kvothe killing the fake troupers, and thistle noted that kvothe decided to kill them even before he knew about the kidnapped girls. He made his decision when they mentioned that they stole wine from a small town (levenshir? or something?).

Not only was this over the top... but didn't Kvothe himself steal on multiple occasions...? He stole from the clerk at Tarbean for sure. He stole from the Maer's tax box. I can't think of any other instances where he stole stuff, but I'm sure they're out there.

So Kvothe isn't only morally questionable, but a hypocrite as well? Or am I missing something?

EDIT

The finished cards can be seen here http://www.kickstart...d-playing-cards

A few thing's I've noticed about the Kvothe card:

• (Discovered by nisheeth. Just consolidating all the differences in this post). It's folly on the top, wary on the bottom.
  
• The candle is out on the top, lit on the bottom. So the lighting is different. Top portion has sunlight, bottom has candlelight.
  
• Flowers are alive on the top portion, wilting on the bottom. On the bottom portion, you can see bits of the flower have fallen onto the wood thingie. (eloquently said ofc). Cut flower?
  
• There are HOLLY berries next to the candle on the top portion, they're missing on the bottom
  
• The cups are different.
  
• Kvothe's facial expressions are different.
  
• Crescent moon in the middle. Significance?
  

About the Kilvin Card:

• Don't think anything's different. Top and bottom are the exact same.
  

The "Be wary of folly" Card

• Full moon. Significance? Folly at the full moon?
  
• Pieces of the memoir kvothe wrote flying in the wind.
  
• Ink bottle.
  
• Holly berries again. Significance? Those are def holly berries. Bast used those to protect Kvothe/himself/Chronicler from the skin dancer. The holly berries appeared in Kvothe's card.
  

Back of the card card.

• Lute, artificing book, candle, nothing special.
  
• Lotsa wind.
  
• Talent pipes with an archaic lute stamped on them.
  
• Pieces of paper floating (the memoir?)
  
• Chains (wtf?)
  
• A lion's head attached to the lute (wtf?)
  
• Not sure what the symbol in the very middle is. Light seems to be emitting out of it.
  

That's about all I can see. Maybe someone can catch something else?

Also I can't wait for the next hangout pat's going to do. :) Hopefully there's one today/monday.

[jumbles]

I finished reading parts 4 and 5 of the reread. Just a couple of things from them.

Imisseverything points out that Ferule's pretty much means "iron wheel" in French. We already knew "Fer" was iron, but "iron wheel" would be interesting.

Jonnymoon suggests that the children not given names in Skarpi's story could be important. Jonnymoon calls them "unNamed," but if they're important, I wonder if "Nameless" (WMFc105) wouldn't be more appropriate term.

Another thing I forgot from the kickstarter videos. I didn't post it as soon as I remembered because of Slick Mongoose's comment, but I think it is relevant, and Pat was specifically not very concerned with us seeing his bookmarks.

One of them was called "we are the music makers"

It's probably this poem by Arthur O'Shaughnessy. It's got music makers, dreamers, the moon, singers, and songs that cause nations to rise and fall.

The "Be wary of folly" Card

• Pieces of the memoir kvothe wrote flying in the wind.
  

What makes you so sure those are pieces of the memoir?

A lion's head attached to the lute (wtf?)

This is actually a revised version of the card back. I can't seem to find the original design again, but I think the lute may not have had the lion's head before? Which I guess would mean Pat wanted a lion's head? But really I can't remember for sure that there was no lion's head before.

Not sure what the symbol in the very middle is. Light seems to be emitting out of it.

I believe the symbol in the middle is a Tehlin wheel.

[thistlepong]

That was perhaps one of the tamest responses to women in the Chronicle, too.

Crescent moon in the middle. Significance?

I'm being lazy, here, but the crescent is probably the bit where he wanted to make sure stuff that would be behind our moon was visible in the 4C. This was either mentioned a few posts ago or somewhere else entirely. Hmm, maybe jumbles has a point about discussion confusion.

• Chains (wtf?)
  
• A lion's head attached to the lute (wtf?)
  

The chains are Tehlin. Penitenet Priests wear them. They're connected to hearts at the talent pipes, right?

The lion's head immediately made me think of another alchemical symbol. The green (yes) lion is an intermediate stage in the alchemical transformation. Incidentally, the lute's also one. I'll see if I can make some sense of it for y'all later. Suffice to say, if it's an addition requested by Pat, tis is why.

Another thing I forgot from the kickstarter videos. I didn't post it as soon as I remembered because of Slick Mongoose's comment, but I think it is relevant, and Pat was specifically not very concerned with us seeing his bookmarks.

One of them was called "we are the music makers"

It's probably this poem by Arthur O'Shaughnessy. It's got music makers, dreamers, the moon, singers, and songs that cause nations to rise and fall.

here's the full text for future reference:

We are the music makers,

And we are the dreamers of dreams,

Wandering by lone sea-breakers,

And sitting by desolate streams;—

World-losers and world-forsakers, 5

On whom the pale moon gleams:

Yet we are the movers and shakers

Of the world for ever, it seems.

With wonderful deathless ditties

We build up the world's great cities, 10

And out of a fabulous story

We fashion an empire's glory:

One man with a dream, at pleasure,

Shall go forth and conquer a crown;

And three with a new song's measure 15

Can trample a kingdom down.

We, in the ages lying

In the buried past of the earth,

Built Nineveh with our sighing,

And Babel itself in our mirth; 20

And o'erthrew them with prophesying

To the old of the new world's worth;

For each age is a dream that is dying,

Or one that is coming to birth.

A breath of our inspiration 25

Is the life of each generation;

A wondrous thing of our dreaming

Unearthly, impossible seeming—

The soldier, the king, and the peasant

Are working together in one, 30

Till our dream shall become their present,

And their work in the world be done.

They had no vision amazing

Of the goodly house they are raising;

They had no divine foreshowing 35

Of the land to which they are going:

But on one man's soul it hath broken,

A light that doth not depart;

And his look, or a word he hath spoken,

Wrought flame in another man's heart. 40

And therefore to-day is thrilling

With a past day's late fulfilling;

And the multitudes are enlisted

In the faith that their fathers resisted,

And, scorning the dream of to-morrow, 45

Are bringing to pass, as they may,

In the world, for its joy or its sorrow,

The dream that was scorned yesterday.

But we, with our dreaming and singing,

Ceaseless and sorrowless we! 50

The glory about us clinging

Of the glorious futures we see,

Our souls with high music ringing:

O men! it must ever be

That we dwell, in our dreaming and singing, 55

A little apart from ye.

For we are afar with the dawning

And the suns that are not yet high,

And out of the infinite morning

Intrepid you hear us cry— 60

How, spite of your human scorning,

Once more God's future draws nigh,

And already goes forth the warning

That ye of the past must die.

Great hail! we cry to the comers 65

From the dazzling unknown shore;

Bring us hither your sun and your summers;

And renew our world as of yore;

You shall teach us your song's new numbers,

And things that we dreamed not before: 70

Yea, in spite of a dreamer who slumbers,

And a singer who sings no more.

I particularly like 65-72.

I believe the symbol in the middle is a Tehlin wheel.

The angles look slightly off, but the chains do make me lean that way. Seriously hoping I can find time to listen to these.

[Nisheeth]

The finished cards can be seen here http://www.kickstart...d-playing-cards

A few thing's I've noticed about the Kvothe card:

• (Discovered by nisheeth. Just consolidating all the differences in this post). It's folly on the top, wary on the bottom.
  
• The candle is out on the top, lit on the bottom. So the lighting is different. Top portion has sunlight, bottom has candlelight.
  
• Flowers are alive on the top portion, wilting on the bottom. On the bottom portion, you can see bits of the flower have fallen onto the wood thingie. (eloquently said ofc). Cut flower?
  
• There are HOLLY berries next to the candle on the top portion, they're missing on the bottom
  
• The cups are different.
  
• Kvothe's facial expressions are different.
  
• Crescent moon in the middle. Significance?
  

Never made the connection between Cut flower and the withered one in the image.

I took those differences to highlight the two different states of Kvothe. The one he has during the day, the classic innkeeper, wearing the mask of being happy, while in the night he is a haunted man.

[jumbles]

Just finished part 6 of the Tor reread and couldn't help but post.

manifolded says that in the Spanish edition, Blac of Drossen Tor becomes Nagra de Vessten Tor. Blac and Nagra for black, but they don't know why Vessten. I believe this is more Blac of Drossen Tor being related to Lady Lackless's black dress, since the Spanish for dress is vestido (according to the internet, I don't know Spanish). Does anyone know how that line goes in the Spanish version of the rhyme? If it was changed to fit the rhyme, then I think this is either a massive hint, or Pat is going to extreme lengths to mess with us.

Anyone notice the similarity between the names Elxa Dal and Dalcenti?

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kvothe ever describes it as being cold at his troupe's massacre despite Cinder's presence. Cinder has a cold voice and Cinder's sword remind him of cold, but any mention of temperature is oddly absent. Especially since Pat likes to engage all our senses. Cinder's eyes are described in their blackness though. The Cthaeh says that the Chandrian are good at hiding their signs. There are more rumored signs than there are Chandrian. Perhaps each Chandrian has two signs, and they can mask a sign but then the other manifests itself or intensifies. It would be sort of cool if each Chandrian had one sign that affected just themself and then another that affected the outside world. I would sort of doubt Haliax would have that option though.

[aczh]

Nice - I didn't even know about the tehlin wheel & chains, and I've read the books quite a few times.

And jumbles, why would they have needed to mask their signs after killing Kvothe's troupe? Nobody was there to see them except Kvothe, and they thought he was harmless. They had nothing to hide.

[thistlepong]

The lion's head immediately made me think of another alchemical symbol. The green (yes) lion is an intermediate stage in the alchemical transformation. Incidentally, the lute's also one. I'll see if I can make some sense of it for y'all later. Suffice to say, if it's an addition requested by Pat, this is why.

The philosopher's stone is often referred to as a lion, particularly at the beginning and the end of the opus. The green Lion is the immature but fertile stage, with the potential for purification and glorification: Kvothe in NotW. Lute was the word alchemists used for the seal on the apparatus to hermetically seal it. Kvothe's lute gets broken at the end of NotW, followed by symbols that indicate the coming white stage. Anyway, putting the lion to the lute in the picture sort of reifies the connection.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Kvothe ever describes it as being cold at his troupe's massacre despite Cinder's presence. Cinder has a cold voice and Cinder's sword remind him of cold, but any mention of temperature is oddly absent. Especially since Pat likes to engage all our senses. Cinder's eyes are described in their blackness though.

I'll look again. Still, the attack occurs in late Spring. The Chandrian are gathered around the fire. Cinder never gets more than twenty four paces from Kvothe. Might not be credibly cold given those parameters.

[jumbles]

And jumbles, why would they have needed to mask their signs after killing Kvothe's troupe? Nobody was there to see them except Kvothe, and they thought he was harmless. They had nothing to hide.

I was just suggesting that they just always exhibited one sign at a time because I want to find a way for them to hide their signs without them just being able to say, "I don't want to be noticeable right now, so I won't be." Maybe they chose their signs for attacking the troupe and not for Kvothe. But in any case, this is just an idea with no good evidence to support it.

I finished reading parts 7 through 11 of the Tor Reread. The only thing from them that I want to add here is Michael K suggesting that Kvothe hurt Hemme so badly with the mommet because Hemme isn't human.

I watched three more Kickstarter videos here, here, and here. Some notes on them:

1. There is no real-world time period that is analogous to the time Kvothe lives in. Different aspects of technology and society have advanced at different paces.
   
   
2. Pat showed a prototype of a coin. I thought they were talking about talents at the time, but now the kickstarter has jots, so maybe it was a jot. All I know for sure is that the coin was Cealdish since Pat said that the Cealdish government mints them. The coin was not circular like our coins, it was a trapezoid and much thicker than our coins.
   
   
3. A Siaru accent is similar to a Slavic accent.
   
   
4. At one point Pat refers to Laurian as a very young mother. Later he says she is in her early 30's but looks younger. And later than that he says that she is 10 years younger than Arliden.
   
   
5. Pat mentions a story about Bast that will be published in the Rogues anthology. Looking it up, it looks like the short story (I believe he said 20,000 words) will be called The Lightning Tree.
   

[thistlepong]

Re:2

He showed a copper jot, but said the talent was smaller and silver, but the same shape, assuming I interpreted it correctly. SInce he used it as the model for the talents in Stanchion's portrait, I figure that's right. The Cealdish currency is the basis for international trade in the Four Corners. There's a lot more detail in the widget. I do not remember the shape of the coins being mentioned, but the artist seemed to be thinking of them as trapezoids already.

[Jussi]

Looking it up, it looks like the short story (I believe he said 20,000 words) will be called The Lightning Tree.

20,000 words is a novella, not a short story.

[aczh]

I finished reading parts 7 through 11 of the Tor Reread. The only thing from them that I want to add here is Michael K suggesting that Kvothe hurt Hemme so badly with the mommet because Hemme isn't human.

So Hemme is hairier than your average master? :cool4:

EDIT:

Reading through random comments on tor.com.. and

121. Dmack

SUNDAY MAY 26, 2013 12:04AM EDT

I was just reading through chapter 40 again, and this strikes me as something incredibly important (p289). After roll call of the nine Masters:

"'And Master Linguist,' said the Chancellor. 'All eight...' He frowned. 'Sorry. Strike that. All nine masters are present.'"

So one of the Masters isn't actually a Master. There's no other reason Pat would put that in there that I can think of. Personally, I'm calling something's up with Elodin.

Maybe hemme? O.o

[jumbles]

20,000 words is a novella, not a short story.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. But actually, I just re-watched that part, and he didn't call it a short story; he just called it a story. And also, the 20,000 words remark seemed like it may have been a very rough estimate.

[jumbles]

Pat showed a prototype of a coin. I thought they were talking about talents at the time, but now the kickstarter has jots, so maybe it was a jot. All I know for sure is that the coin was Cealdish since Pat said that the Cealdish government mints them. The coin was not circular like our coins, it was a trapezoid and much thicker than our coins.

He showed a copper jot, but said the talent was smaller and silver, but the same shape, assuming I interpreted it correctly. SInce he used it as the model for the talents in Stanchion's portrait, I figure that's right. The Cealdish currency is the basis for international trade in the Four Corners. There's a lot more detail in the widget. I do not remember the shape of the coins being mentioned, but the artist seemed to be thinking of them as trapezoids already.

Thanks, thistlepong. And Pat's blog post includes a picture of a jot. He has this to say:

This, my friends, is a jot. A copper jot.

I've been working with a gentleman numismatist named Tom Maringer to develop the coinage in my world. Because I am a complete geek for coins.

This is one of our prototype jots. It's not the sort of jot Kvothe would use though. Not quite. This is a jot that would have existed in the Four Corners several hundred years ago.

Tom and I are going to do several limited batches of jots, refining the design until it's the same counterfeit-proof coin that exists in Kvothe's world.

[two_by_two]

1. Pat showed a prototype of a coin. I thought they were talking about talents at the time, but now the kickstarter has jots, so maybe it was a jot. All I know for sure is that the coin was Cealdish since Pat said that the Cealdish government mints them. The coin was not circular like our coins, it was a trapezoid and much thicker than our coins.
   

In Ben's very first lesson on sympathy, Kvothe gives the history of the jot, in which he states that they were originally sliced from bars. Assuming the bars look something like this, it is logical for them to be trapezoidal.

(edited a number of times to get the image)