The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

yes... a vase... perhaps some inscriptions in a crypt beneath his property.... can't recall off hand. But what I can remember is that

1. it was a series of fairly crude depictions of the chandrian and a cirdae.

2. Not many people saw it... only friends of the family.

3. Of those who did see the cave painting-esque depictions, I'm not sure we've encountered so much as a single person who recognized the chandrian portrayals for what they were.

I can understand their being called to their names... names have power... but since when does crude artwork have such powers??

[thistlepong]

'Twere more'n just pictures, y'all. Here's some snippets from Kvothe's initial conversation with Verainia.

It had all sorts of writings and pictures on it.

This was all foreign writing. It didn’t say anything.

She saw it once. Jimmy Mauthen showed it to her. All you need is for one a' them folks to be able to read or even sound out a name, or names, and it's less confusing.

More fun, but less certain, is Denna providing the capstone by singing a rough version of "Seven Sorrows" and yer weddin' party's right boned.

[Tears of Lys]

Yep, the writing on the vase cinched the doom of the wedding party.

I didn't get the impression that the paintings on the vase were crude, cave painting-like works, BTW. Where does it say that?

[thistlepong]

Yep, the writing on the vase cinched the doom of the wedding party.

I didn't get the impression that the paintings on the vase were crude, cave painting-like works, BTW. Where does it say that?

It doesn't. From the description even Nina's work is fairly sophisticated. And she says the pictures on the vase were much better.

Charitable: chalk it up to "can't remember off hand"

[Tears of Lys]

Agreed.

I can't help but wonder what else is buried in those mounds in the area where the Mauthens' farm was... Rothfuss drives me nuts by leaving that lay there all tantalizing-like.

[flinn]

Could someone explain how Kvothe turned into a weakling?

I don't understand at all how he all of a sudden forgot all of his training and was too weak to fight back against the mercenary.

In book 1 he was a whirlwind in the night killing demons then in book 2 he was falling all over himself taking a whipping from a mercenary.

Now, at first I was thinking that it was because he didn't want anyone to see he could fight, but his reaction after shows that isn't the case. Bast went and killed them.

Even if he lost his "magic" he was still trained by the greatest fighters in that world. Even a small girl was lethal with that training.

[Tears of Lys]

Well, that's one of the main questions to be answered in the third book. There's been lots of speculation that his Name is locked in the chest up in his room at the Waystone, and with it his powers. This wouldn't explain his physical weakness, of course, but remember, it's been made pretty clear that if you **believe** you are a certain person, then you become that person. Kvothe has buried himself in Kote, an average innkeeper who bakes pies and serves people. That's why Bast's trying so hard to make him remember himself, even if it endangers him. He's slowly dying anyway.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

By crude I mean some rough images sketched on a vase found in the ground... It clearly was not sufficiently sophisticated for folks to know what it depicted

Is there any evidence that anyone thought the 8 pictures painted on the vase were anything more significant than an old artifact with some strange depictions of people on them? Denna singing a song seems more like to draw the chandrian than a handful of farmers seeing some strange painted pieces of pottery.

Just seems odd... that makes a Chandrian attack insane easy to trigger.

[Gigei]

Could someone explain how Kvothe turned into a weakling?

I don't understand at all how he all of a sudden forgot all of his training and was too weak to fight back against the mercenary.

In book 1 he was a whirlwind in the night killing demons then in book 2 he was falling all over himself taking a whipping from a mercenary.

Now, at first I was thinking that it was because he didn't want anyone to see he could fight, but his reaction after shows that isn't the case. Bast went and killed them.

Even if he lost his "magic" he was still trained by the greatest fighters in that world. Even a small girl was lethal with that training.

None of us understand it right now. I thought even in-universe Bast doesn't understand it. I think Bast was expecting some kick-ass action there and was confused why it didn't happen.

[jumbles]

I just thought of something. Apologies if it's been brought up before. Kvothe is telling his story, and Bast hopes it will get Kvothe to believe in himself again. Many hope the story will help Kvothe regain his name. Well pretty much the same thing happened to someone else in the story. Sceop couldn't even remember his name at first. Then as he told the story of his life, he regained his confidence and became a great speaker, which is what Sceop likely means in Ademic. Arliden (Kvothe actually says his father, I'm just going to assume his father is Arliden here) told Kvothe his name means "to know." Maybe by telling the story, Kvothe will regain his name and become a great knower again (I'm assuming becoming a good knower by regaining his name would mean he was a good knower before). Or maybe he just regains his name/confidence and the Sceop-Kvothe connection is just (imagined?) coincidence.

[jurble]

My friend is rereading NotW and TWMF, and he claims that the Lockless Box has Yllish knots engraved on it, in the manner of Denna's attempt at using Yllish knots for magic. Has this been discussed or brought up before?

[jumbles]

It's not explicitly said to have Yllish knots on it, but that is a popular idea. Something is certainly carved into the wood. For those who wish to look it up, it's in WMFc139.

[Tears of Lys]

My friend is rereading NotW and TWMF, and he claims that the Lockless Box has Yllish knots engraved on it, in the manner of Denna's attempt at using Yllish knots for magic. Has this been discussed or brought up before?

yeah, I think most of us figure that the carving **is** Yllish knot writing. Of course, Denna's braided hair she keeps undoing and redoing is tantalizing, and so is Kvothe's dream after his troupe is killed in Name of the Wind where Ben is teaching him sailor's knots IIRC.

I personally cannot wait to have this particular question unraveled. :P

[two_by_two]

Hey so I was drifting off to sleep a little while ago and, as happens, my mind came up with some associations that I hadn't thought of before (Spinning Leaf, anyone?). These ideas have been postulated in previous threads, but I thought of one more piece of evidence which I think really puts the final nail in this coffin.

Starting here, and again here and here, we first see the idea that "rhinta", "rhintae", "rhinata", and "rhinna" are all connected etymologically. Speculation points to it meaning "knowledge", but it's difficult to say for sure. Other postulated ideas are "power" and something to do with shaping.

However, when you get into linguistics, the sound "r" is pretty darn similar to the sound "l". And the word "lhin" (or "lhinsatva") pops up left and right in Cealdish, always in the colloquial context of "Okay? Got it? Understand?"

I think these words share a common root, and that root does mean knowledge. This would mean that the Rhinta, rather than being "old things in the shape of men", are actually knowers. The skinwalker doesn't ask if Kvothe is a Chandrian. It asks if he's a knower.

And this strengthens the symbolic parallels between the Cthaeh's tree and the Biblical Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. What do people come to the Cthaeh's tree for? The flowers, yes, but more importantly, they come for the knowledge the Cthaeh possesses. Perhaps the rhinna tree got its name because it is literally a tree of knowledge. Or perhaps the root for knowledge came about because the tree is named that.

I know some of this has been proposed before, but I'm increasingly certain that "lhin" adds another level of credence to this theory, so I thought I'd bring it up again.

[SolitudeIsBliss]

I just wanted to ask if anyone else noticed at the very end of the wise man's fear the last paragraph of the epilogue it APPEARS as if hes doing the steps for the Ketan, if you notice the line "there, behind the tightly shuttered windows, he lifted his hands like a dancer, shifted his weight, and slowly took one single perfect step." to me this is pretty good evidence I also believe he stated earlier in his story that Tempi Looked like he was dancing when he saw him perform it for the first time.

Just wanted to see if anyone else noticed this, and if kvothe could possibly be.... kvothe again :P

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SIB,

No, you aren't the only person to notice this. However, remember that Kvothe is a performer, Edema Ruh to his core, what could be a more terrible curse for one such as him than to leave him much of his power but only when he is alone. He could never be the "Hero" again because the abilities that made him a hero are gone when others are present.

[thistlepong]

Scot, SIB, and anyone else really... There's a new reader going through the Tor Reread and ze came up with an interesting take on that scene, here.

It's a long post. A lot of what ze says has been said before. However, I haven't seen anyone put it all together in one place. And the conclusion ze draws (about the perfect step) is entirely new.

I have a theory about Naming, Spinning Leaf, the Lethani and the Adem. Bear with me, it's a bit lengthy but I hope will be worth the read.

The Adem clearly have Namers and know about Names and Naming. The two Adem who originated the Lethani were Namers who knew the name of the wind, and at least one of these commanded the wind through Naming. Magwyn, their master namer, is greatly and universally honored. Yet in Kvothe's time we never see anyone in Ademre command anything by means of Names. The Lethani is the central guiding principle in Adem culture. It teaches the Adem to know right from wrong, but gives no absolutes that apply in all situations.

I think Aethe and Rethe argued over whether or not Naming should ever be used to command anything, and probably how it should be taught. The third line of Rethe's poem is:

Without duty, the wind

This could be interpreted in different ways. The wind has no sense of duty but acts according to its nature. The wind should have no duty. The wind has no duty, and therefore no Namer has the right to command it.

When K is at the sword tree for his test he puts himself into Spinning Leaf, the mental state he came up with to try to come to grips with the Lethani. Spinning Leaf is clearly effective for this purpose. Tempi and Shehyn are satisfied with answers given from this state. Vashet says it's obvious that he understands the Lethani, that this can't be faked. Even when K protests that he doesn't understand and used the "trick" of Spinning Leaf to answer, Vashet replies that he has cleverly tricked them by pulling the answers from his own mind. This is pretty conclusive - K's Spinning Leaf gives him access to the Lethani, even when his normal mental state can't grasp the Lethani.

Back to his test at the sword tree. He's in Spinning Leaf and can read the Name of the wind as clear as anything. He knows he could still the wind and make things easy for himself, but he decides that this would not be the right thing to do. Then he gets angry, falls out of Spinning Leaf and loses the Name of the wind. Then he laughs, losing his anger and can see the Name of the wind again. But this time he's not in Spinning Leaf. And so mere minutes after deciding it wouldn't be right to still the wind - and while still in the same situation, the midst of his test/trial - he does exactly that. He stills the wind and completes his test.

Let's compare the sleeping mind concept (which I believe was developed by Elodin, not handed down from a long line of Master Namers), Naming as taught at the university, Spinning Leaf, and the Lethani. The big difference between University teaching and Adem teaching is apparently an ethical one. Sleeping mind and (uni) Naming say nothing at all about right vs. wrong. The Adem evaluateeverything in light of the Lethani. The Adem name things, but they do not (so far as we have seen) use Names to exert control over things. They are not ignorant about Names giving power over things. Both Spinning Leaf and sleeping mind give K access to Names. But only one of those states helps him see right from wrong.

Think back to the bandit camp, after it's been discovered, but before the attack. K asks Tempi how he would deal with the situation. Tempi says kill some now, some later, return to the Maer when they're all done. K asks if there's any other way to get the job done that night and Tempi says there's no way that's of the Lethani. Then K handles things his way and gets the job done that night. Ergo, it follows that K's way was not of the Lethani. K's actions would not be correct in the eyes of the Adem. Yes, we could say Tempi was simply ignorant of the powers at K's disposal and maybe he would have used them the way K did if they'd been available to Tempi. But I think that's a stretch. Alternatively, we have Shehyn's knowledge (from Tempi) that Cinder/a Rhinta was among the bandits, and that K used "blood magic" to deal with the situation. Tempi didn't know about Cinder while discussing how to handle the bandits with K, so maybe in light of the Rhinta, blood magic was acceptable and of the Lethani after all. Vashet says he will be right to "use all things" against the Rhinta. But using blood magic against ordinary men would probably not be of the Lethani.

I think it's rather astonishing that the University pays so little attention to right and wrong with regard to the various magics that are taught there. Kilvin does have his principles, no doubt. And malfeasance is much abhorred. But for an institution that supposedly worries about its reputation and has seen its members executed for flimsy reasons and due to ignorant superstition in the past, there's a remarkable lack of attention to ethics. You'd think an institution that puts that sort of power in the hands of students would have a mandatory introductory class that drills a set of rules into the heads of every student, before they're turned loose to learn anything. But no such class is required. Elodin devotes no time at all to issues of right and wrong. Why not? Malfeasance can be used to cover all manner of wrongdoing it seems. But there's also some debate about exactly what qualifies as malfeasance. If this is such a critical issue, why isn't it thoroughly discussed, explained, and inculcated at the university?

What if the Lethani teaches (among many other things) that using a Name to command something is not right, or nearly always wrong? What if K finally absorbs this concept and chooses to follow it? I'm not suggesting that he didn't royally screw things up with magic or by other means to be revealed in book 3. But what if it's the teachings of the Lethani itself that are (at least partly) now keeping him from using his magical skills? In the frame he clearly tried to use sympathy against the skindancer, though he failed. Sympathy might be of the Lethani against a Rhinta or whatever it was. Is there any other example in the frame of K trying to use his magic? (I think the bottle breaking was involuntary.)

Clearly the Adem have among them adepts at Naming, but I think they would regard the line from the Taborlin the Great story with horror:

Taborlin knew the names of all things, and so all things were his to command.

This would not be a logical or ethical inference at all among the Adem. No one outside of Ademre seems to give this a second thought. If you have power it's perfectly fine to exert it, apparently. If Taborlin had followed the Lethani, how would his story go? Stillness, silence and restraint are the heart of Ademre. Naming something in the sense of knowing it is of the Lethani. Commanding something with its Name (usually) is not.

Finally, what's the very, very last thing that happens in WMF? Previously, I read K's one perfect step as evidence that he has somehow shed his fatalism and is choosing to at least try to reclaim his skills and powers. But now I'm not sure. He may be practicing the Ketan as a discipline that connects with the Lethani, in effect re-affirming a set of values he's trying to live by through physical practice.

I think PR is building towards a conclusion that will turn on the ethical use of power. NotW and WMF have shown the development of K's mind, his skills, his knowledge and his power. So far there have only been hints at his sense of right and wrong, and he's made a lot of bad or questionable decisions. I think there has to be a great deal of moral development yet to come in D3. He already has at least some of the pieces of this moral framework. He'll put them together in D3.

[thistlepong]

I'm not necessarily endorsing all or part of it, but it's certainly worth consideration.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Thistlepong,

Oh, without question. The ethical use of power was the primary reason Kvothe had his sojurn among the Ademre in my opinion. What's sad is he appears to forget, or chooses to ignore, all he's learned the moment he leaves Haert.

[Seiche]

It's a great exposition, thank you for sharing it here. In the end, I find myself unable to give Kvothe that much credit. I don't see the capacity for introspection and self awareness that such a transformation would require. The lad simply hasn't got it in him.