Tullys: Top three or bottom four?

[Axrendale]

I could accept the 70k men Renly had with him from the Reach. What I cannot accept, is that this excluded Oldtown and the Arbor, which together must add at least another 20-30k men.

This is just ridiculous. The Reach should dominate the Westerosi political landscape. At least, they should dominate the South. I can understand that they never had any influence over the North, who are geographically untouchable by them, but the West, Dorne, Stormlands and Riverlands should all have been under their dominance by now.

If even one Tywin arose in the Reach over the last few thousand years, the rest of the Kingdoms would have been in serious trouble. They outnumber Dorne by 3 to 1, for Pete's sake, and even the Riverlands by almost two to one.

It is a worldbuilding error, in my view.

One potential mitigating circumstance is that the ruling House of the Reach seems to have less sway over their own vassals than any of the other Great Houses of Westeros. Consider the events that transpired immediately after the death of Renly in ACOK: despite the clear preferences of the Tyrells, members or retainers of what must probably have been a majority of the noble or knightly Houses of the Reach (more than 3/4 of Renly's entire cavalry force) had no compunction whatsoever about going over to Stannis (though many of them later re-defected during the Battle of the Blackwater). Their single most powerful vassal (the Hightowers) is effectively permitted to retain a state of quasi-independence.

There has also been some speculation that the chivalric traditions of the Reach may have hindered any expansionary ambitions on their part:

http://towerofthehan...ells/index.html

... The Reach is without natural borders or landmarks. To the north, the Ocean Road is overlooked only by the stronghold of the Oakhearts, Old Oak. Old Oak can be easily avoided, however. The great plains of the Reach are open to all sides except to the Red Mountains of Dorne, and thus an enemy host can march in at every direction. Nonetheless, castles in the Reach are not as formidable as their northern counterparts. Oftentimes they are designed more for their beauty than they are for actual defense. This leads to the expectation that wars are fought and won on the battlefield not through lengthy sieges. Knights of the Reach would rather prove their prowess in combat instead of sitting in a tent for months and waiting for the food of the enemy to grow scarce. This mindset makes for a tradition of knights with superior fighting skills and less hardship for the smallfolk since wars tend to be much shorter. One disadvantage is that it renders the Reach unable to conduct major sieges against enemies by itself. Should foreign invaders come to the Reach and besiege castles, however, the southron lords can easily count on their superior numbers and their thirst for open battle to lift any siege. So long as the Reach doesn't try to conquer foreign, well defended lands, its fighting style suits them and their lands well...

... Many of these soldiers, however, will lack formal training and a good standard of arms. The Reach conducts knight battles, and while its knights are numerous and well trained, they don't waste too much thought on the foot. They rely on superior numbers to compensate for the lack in quality soldiers. Their knights are the elite fighting force and heart of their army. It is the charge of knights in which they break the enemy host that is the true strength of the realm. The knights of the Reach are most likely to rush ahead in battle, trying to gain as much glory as they can in the process, not burdening themselves much with tactic and strategy. It's every man for himself in battle, and in the end, their superior prowess will win them the day. It is victory in individual combat which determines whom was the best on the field that day. Should an army of the Reach meet an organized foe with a sense for tactic and the use of different weapons and troop types, superior numbers and fervor will count for nothing. Victory can only then be achieved if the army is under the command of a lord with battle experience, someone well versed in the art of war.

Such men are scarce in the Reach, however. Since the War of the Usurper, the Reach has had only one leader who meets this criteria, Randyll Tarly. Cold and calculating, even he is consumed with the thought of honor and pride and would rather lead a charge than form up a reserve and organize the men into columns. The prowess of such a commander of the Reach lies in his ability to maneuver and to force battle on favorable grounds, thus taking away any enemy advantage. It was Randyll Tarly who won the battle against Robert Baratheon at Ashford during this war, precisely because he was able to move quickly. He arrived before the enemy, and even his own main host, using his armored horse to demolish the enemy army before it could take battle positions instead of waiting for his own foot to arrive and conduct a pitched battle...

This might well explain in part how the Reach has historically never been able to do better than hold its own against such a foe as the Stormlands, let alone more powerful entities such as the Westerlands.

Alternative explanations could include the point that by virtue of being effectively ringed with potential enemies, the Reach is disincentivised from concentrating its efforts in any one particular direction - with its superior power being the main distinguishing feature with the Riverlands on this point.

[Free Northman]

Axrendale.

Good points raised.

[Axrendale]

Axrendale.

Good points raised.

Thank you. :)

[Axrendale]

*post deleted*

[Ingelheim]

I would say that the Tully are the least powerful of the Great Houses. Even less than the Martell.

[TheSmalljon]

In terms of wealth,power and military might:

Tyrell

Lannister

Tully/Arryn

Stark/Baratheon

Martell

Greyjoy

In terms of prestige:

Stark - Kings for 8000 years

Arryn - Earliest andals

Lannister - Casterly Rock didn't at first belong to them, but they were kings in the age of heroes up until the conquest

Martell - were a kingdom/princedom for 700 years before the conquest

Baratheon - Only existed for 300 years, they descend from the Durrendon Storm kings through the female line

Greyjoy - Descend from the Grey king, were chosen to rule the Iron islands after the conquest, they've been kings a few times

Tully - Never been kings, only lords

Tyrell - Stewards

[Free Northman]

I think it is incorrect to place the Starks down at Baratheon level of power. They are more on a par with the Vale or slightly higher.

[TheSmalljon]

Maybe so, but the Starks, Arryns and the Tullys should all be somewhat similar in strength, give or take a few thousand. It doesn't really matter. It's just that I think the Tullys are always underrated in these threads.

[E-Ro]

Why wouldn't anyone attack them? That would be the only way to fight the Reach, avoid the foot an counter attack. They did send a lot of troops with Renly but they barely marched out of the Reach. Some turned back after bitterbirdge, the more after the Blackwater. All the while with an unobstructed supply line up the rose road. But in a march and counter march battle of the type Robb and Tywin have... I'm not sure the Reach could do that. If anyone but Doran had been ruling in Dorne, the Dornish would have come screaming up the princes pass to rampage all over the Reach.

First of all, I like what you did with my name, very clever.(not sure if that was intentional or not but still well played ser)

I dont think anyone would attack the reach because they would have a ton of men left over to defend even with a large amount off fighting.

[Batman]

For example, I can imagine the Reach directing 100k troops at the West and after a brief if bloody war, annexing the gold fields of the Lannisters, instantly becoming a superpower in terms of wealth as well as population.

I would think that would be the point where the Lannisters reach out to the Durrendons or Martells to create a second front and stop this from happening. It is in both their interests to avoid the Gardeners becoming insanely powerful.

[Free Northman]

Yes, my concern was particularly over the strength of the Reach during House Gardener times - when their control over their vassals was far greater than after the upstart Tyrells were given Highgarden.

[Narwhal Stark]

Or England conquering half the world.

Britain conquering half the world*

[otherbeef]

I would think that would be the point where the Lannisters reach out to the Durrendons or Martells to create a second front and stop this from happening. It is in both their interests to avoid the Gardeners becoming insanely powerful.

exactly, even with their superior numbers they could never conquer every other kingdom because the other kingdoms would unite to prevent such a thing.

as for the Baratheons, they have to be at least top five in terms of Houses. The top five has to go the the houses that were formerly kings (including the Tyrells who control the same land as former kings). We know they can't be weaker than the Tullys otherwise the River Kings would've conquered the Storm Kings and not the other way around. Bottom 3 either way is Tully/Martell and then Greyjoy.

[Batman]

exactly, even with their superior numbers they could never conquer every other kingdom because the other kingdoms would unite to prevent such a thing.

as for the Baratheons, they have to be at least top five in terms of Houses. The top five has to go the the houses that were formerly kings (including the Tyrells who control the same land as former kings). We know they can't be weaker than the Tullys otherwise the River Kings would've conquered the Storm Kings and not the other way around. Bottom 3 either way is Tully/Martell and then Greyjoy.

Each kingdom has advantages the others don't. The reach may be rich, fertile and populous but the are just as exposed as the riverlands are.

At the beginning of AGOT I would say the Baratheons, Starks, Lannisters and Tyrells would be the top four in terms of who I want on my side.

[TheSmalljon]

How can you put the Riverlands above the Iron Islands when the Iron Islands conquered them, after the Stormlords had already conquered them, all of which was before they lost half their territory to form the crownlands. The Iron Islands can defend their territory and they can project their military into other regions, the Riverlands can't even defend themselves. I just don't understand what standard you could possibly be using.

How can you put the Riverlands above the Iron Islands when the Iron Islands conquered them, after the Stormlords had already conquered them, all of which was before they lost half their territory to form the crownlands. The Iron Islands can defend their territory and they can project their military into other regions, the Riverlands can't even defend themselves. I just don't understand what standard you could possibly be using.

The Riverlands weren't always a unified region, they were multiple petty kingdoms, conquered one by one.

[Pod The Impaler]

The point is that wars are not decided simply by bashing numbers against each other. Battle smarts matter, discipline matters, ferocity matters, organization matters, and resilience matters.

Winning battles does a great deal more than reduce the enemy's number more than yours - it sows fear and confusion in your foes, causes your own men to fight more confidently in the future.

[TheSmalljon]

Them and everyone where else in Westeros, what's your point?

My point is the Riverlands weren't always unified as they are today(As the rest of the seven kingdoms). They were small kingdoms conquered one by one into larger kingdoms in hundreds of years. Including the Storm kings, then they lost that territory to someone, and then they lost it to someone and so on and so on. Up until the conquest were the Riverlands were under Ironborn control. The Reach probably held some of those territories sometime, the West probably too. Until the Ironborn conquered areas from those kingdoms and made what is now the Riverlands. So the Riverlands never marshaled their full strength to defend from invasions from larger kingdoms because the were many little kingdoms.

I'd like to note that in my first post I did not take into account their poor stragetic location. Otherwise the Starks would be at the top.

[otherbeef]

My point is the Riverlands weren't always unified as they are today(As the rest of the seven kingdoms). They were small kingdoms conquered one by one into larger kingdoms in hundreds of years. Including the Storm kings, then they lost that territory to someone, and then they lost it to someone and so on and so on. Up until the conquest were the Riverlands were under Ironborn control. The Reach probably held some of those territories sometime, the West probably too. Until the Ironborn conquered areas from those kingdoms and made what is now the Riverlands. So the Riverlands never marshaled their full strength to defend from invasions from larger kingdoms because the were many little kingdoms.

I'd like to note that in my first post I did not take into account their poor stragetic location. Otherwise the Starks would be at the top.

weren't the Riverlands unified and ruled by the old River Kings?

[TheSmalljon]

At first yes, but then the Andals invaded and conquered them and formed their many petty kingdoms.

[The Fallen]

` At the beginning of AGoT, the Baratheons are the clear-cut top house in Westeros. They control the Iron Throne and can call on the whole realm if they need to. They also have the Stormlands and Storm's End as well as Dragonstone and all the houses sworn to it. After House Baratheon, I think you have three houses which are pretty even. And those are Houses Stark, Lannister and Arryn. All three have ties to the Baratheons and all three have loyal bannermen, prestige and history.

I think they're followed closely by House Tyrell of The Reach. I know about their money and huge army, but what hurts them is the lack of history and prestige. Hence, why they had to hitch their wagon to Renly. And I just don't see the Tyrells ever trying to take on any of the aforementioned houses, unless they were provoked into doing it.

That makes House Tully a bottom three house, along with the Martells of Dorne and the House Greyjoy of the Iron Islands. I think the Tullys suffer from the same problem that the Tyrells suffer from, and that's a lack of prestige as they're likely considered upstarts. I must say that the Riverlands can be a formidable region. In the WotFK they were caught off-guard, but once they were able to regroup and organize they did well. Dorne is disregarded for the most part because they're as if not more isolated then the north. I also want to note that there isn't that much separating theses houses from the first four, whereas there seems to be a precipitous drop-off from the first six houses to House Greyjoy.

So the Tullys are not too shabby, considering they're the sixth or seventh top house out of hundreds, if not thousands.