lancerman

Why couldn't Jeyne Poole not get raped every night?

This is like so out of context its embarrassing. I was talking about viewers and ratings not the story. Stop trying to fit a square into a circle so you can continue your narrative. That post had nothing to do with the story or the writing at all.

Well the logic behind it would be, Sansa really hasn't done a whole lot in the Vale in the books. And for such a major character it doesn't make good television. Now this is just guess work. But they probably know where Sansa ends up and it's likely in the Winterfell area. And rather than have Sansa have only two or three scenes this season, they wanted to get her there faster. So they invented LF using Cersie to get the okay to attack the Vale to get Sansa to the North faster instead of just holding her story off. That way when the Vale comes back into play (likely in the North) Sansa is right there for it. But now she has something to do. And rather than eating lemmon cakes she's in the thick of things, in the middle of a huge war, part of the Bolton's plan to legitimize their claim on Winterfell, and part of Theon's redemption arc (which honestly makes it better for the show because more people associate Sansa and Theon together than they ever would Jeyne). So the benefit of Sansa being their is -she is not put on the back burner in the Vale -she is part of Theon's redemption arc -she has something to do until her book story actually picks up the pace and the can align it better. -she actually gives the Bolton's a lot more weight and credence by marrying Ramsay -she gives Brienne a logical explanation for being at Winterfell when Stannis attacks (because LSH got cut, so naturally Brienne would track Sansa) -It allows for Stannis to die at the hands of Brienne after he loses battle (like the Pink Letter indicates) and he pays for killing Renly, rather than likely dying at the hands of an unnamed soldier or the Boltons, which brings Stannis' story full circle, and doesn't change the greater point of him losing and dying at Winterfell. The unfortunate cost is -the most sensible way to get Sansa there is that Jeyne Poole exists for a purpose that Sansa is the most ideal person that could fulfill that purpose and sadly you have to take the bad with that plot and Sansa gets raped. Though a much tamer version of it. But even that is like you were probably going to get Jeyne Poole anyways because they clearly wanted Theon's redemption to come here. So it was almost a lateral move. The issue that arises is that it was Sansa.

You are arguing something about the rating systems that people have been arguing for decades. But the main point is they are doing extremely well by which the barometers of how we judge success in television. And HBO has far more information than us. They know how many people watch Game of Thrones first airings, then the repeat, then the airing during the week, then on HBO go and Now, they know how many people subscribe when GOT is on, they know how many leave when it is off, they have all the methods to know how that correlates, how many people buy the season sets etc. That said it's highly doubtful the first two seasons have just as much viewers as this one when it was actually on. Yes people probably went back to catch up so most people are now on the same wave length but that isn't what matters Also as far as reading into something that isn't there. Just because the finale was higher, doesn't mean people weren't interested. It means that more people made sure to watch the night the finale debuts. When an episode can be DVR'd or watched on demand or on HBO go a little bit later a lot of people will do that during the season then show up night of for episodes they thought were big. For instance, a lot of people watched basketball and hockey those sundays and watched the show on HBO go after. That effects the first airing viewership.

You are arguing something about the rating systems that people have been arguing for decades. But the main point is they are doing extremely well by which the barometers of how we judge success in television. And HBO has far more information than us. They know how many people watch Game of Thrones first airings, then the repeat, then the airing during the week, then on HBO go and Now, they know how many people subscribe when GOT is on, they know how many leave when it is off, they have all the methods to know how that correlates, how many people buy the season sets etc. That said it's highly doubtful the first two seasons have just as much viewers as this one when it was actually on. Yes people probably went back to catch up so most people are now on the same wave length but that isn't what matters Also as far as reading into something that isn't there. Just because the finale was higher, doesn't mean people weren't interested. It means that more people made sure to watch the night the finale debuts. When an episode can be DVR'd or watched on demand or on HBO go a little bit later a lot of people will do that during the season then show up night of for episodes they thought were big. For instance, a lot of people watched basketball and hockey those sundays and watched the show on HBO go after. That effects the first airing viewership.

Because if Sansa was going to be in Winterfell with the Boltons at all she was going to have too be Jeyne Poole because the entire reason Jeyne Pool exists is because they can't get their hands on Sansa or Arya to do the exact same thing to them. Thats why. It actually was the most logical thing in keeping with the books if you brought Sansa there.

Here's the thing though. Gendry never goes to Stannis. But Stannis does get one of Robert's bastards, does the leech thing, decides to kill him, then Davos saves him. That all happens. So the bastard was just switched for one we know about. And Gendry isn't a big enough character to qualify as a big change. Sandor doesn't fight Brienne. Okay. But he does get mortally wounded at one point and Arya abandons him without dealing he the death blow. The only difference was it wasn't at an inn it was in the field with someone he came across. So again, the crucial thing happened. Brienne never meets any of the Stark girls. Okay. She does in the show. They both elude her though and she hasn't actually got any of them yet (a better comparison would be to bring up how LSH is gone that's a big change). And she doesn't kill Stannis. But we are led to believe that Stannis does at the battle of Winterfell, so the only real change was that Brienne picked him off at the end. Again a small change with the same result that doesn't effect anything else. Dorne was a big change I'll grant. But Dorne itself also has sort of been a subplot more than a main plot. The biggest changes always were LSH is gone (which effects Brienne and Jamie for awhile, and you'll notice both of them have the biggest deviations) and Sansa was taken out of the Vale and brought to be the Jeyne Poole stand in. Which means we lost the Vale plot, but Winterfell is pretty much the same. And Aegon. And you can see where it caused the changes. So it's really these little changes while the overall is still in tact. Lets just go through it with the main characters. 1. Dany ended in the exact same place after leaving the pit with Drogon and surrounded by Dothraki. Mereen was simplified but overall pretty much the same result in the end. 2. Tyrion's story was fast tracked. He didn't meet Aegon. So they got him to Mereen two episodes before Dany left so they could have a scene together, and now he's roughly right on track 3. Jon Snow got stabbed. He pissed off everyone in the NW. Mel is at the Wall (hint hint). Biggest difference we got Hardhome and didn't get the Pink Letter (his stabbing had more to do with Wildlings than marching South). He's right where he needs to be in the story. 4. Arya is with the Faceless Men and blind. Biggest change is she killed Meryn Trant. Grand scheme of things, you get the idea. 5. Theon escaped with Ramsay's bride. Biggest change is it's Sansa and Mance wasn't involved. 6. Cersie took her walk and got Robert Strong. Biggest change she used Loras to get Margeary in trouble with the Sparrows. 7. Stannis. If you believe the Pink Letter, he died in the Battle of Winterfell. Biggest change, Brienne went in and killed him, the circumstances of his troops was different,, he burned Shireen who is getting burned in the books anyways and her burning will likely achieve the same purpose. But the key was that he lost there and died. 8. Mel is back at the wall just in time to resurrect Jon Snow. 9. Margeary is arrested by the Sparrows. Differnce is it's for lying and not adultery. 10. Sam is going to Oldtown with Gilly. Biggest difference it took him longer. All those characters had changes but the core plotlines still happened and they are on the same rough path as the book versions (or ins some cases likely dead like them). And that's what the book has been doing since season 2. 3 MAJOR characters have had what I would call significant changes that for the forseeable future have completely taken them off their book arc until further notice. 1. Sansa. She was given the Jeyne Poole role. Though theoretically she has the easiest path to getting back to her book spot since the Vale is heading to her anyways. 2/3. Jamie and Brienne both went North and South because they can't be in the middle to meet the nonexistent LSH. Though after that storyline ends there is a chance they go back to there book spots.

So your solution is change the Vale plot, change the Winterfell plot, do you want to keep Jeyne Poole to or do we ditch her, because now that effects Theon (unless he just escapes by himself). How does that effect Stannis? Does he still die? Does his army still loose. Because right now the only big changes we can see are that Sansa got taken from the Vale to be Jeyne Poole and Brienne was there because they cut her LSH arc and gave her a chance to off Stannis after he already lost. So from the books the biggest change their was Sansa being Jeyne Poole. We have no idea what the Vale's play in the books is yet or if that is even happening.

Okay lets just take this one thing. The entire point of Jeyne Poole being in Winterfell in the books was that they passing her off as a Stark daughter. If in the books the Boltons got their hands on Arya and Sansa, it literally would have pretty much been the same story as Jeyne Poole because Poole exists as a stand in for them. So now that you say Sansa got the "plot of Jeyne Poole because.. Because Reasons". Well that's the most logical thing in the world you could surmise would happen if Sansa was in Winterfell at that time. That's exactly what Ramsay and Roose would have had happen if they had any of the Stark girls. That's the reason. It makes the most sense.

Not that I completely disagree with you. But I could copy and paste that post and plug any film and book adaptation and largely it would be true. There are some things where it wouldn't but that's a rarity and usualy because of things they did that fans of ASOIAF wouldn't want to happen in an adaptation (example Dexter season 2/3/4 were better than the books, but only because the books got weird and the show ignored everything. Nobody would like that here. Jaws better than the book. But only because they made they took out any cerebral parts of the book and dumbed down all the complex main characters, changing their arcs, so that the two leads were more likeable. I don't think anyone wants that to happen here. Most people can't get over Tysha not being mentioned in season 4.

No my argument is that when you really push the critics on why they don't like something and force them to explain it, and then respond to everything they say, the more you do it the more it becomes clear that their real critique is "I just like the way the books did it better". It's blatant fanboyism. And it's highly arrogant to say "oh you're using the strength in numbers argument" when you guys use the "everybody else is just a lowest common denominator pleb who likes boobs and blood, we are the really smart ones right". It's kind of pathetic. And it's not everyone. There are some people who don't like the show that are actually reasonable. I don't think everything's perfect either. But it's pretty clear that a huge chunk of that populace is just mad that things are different from the book now and were never going to be happy.

Yet you go in the show section and shit on the show. If people went in the books section and shit on GRRM for anything they way the insane fringe freaks out on anything D&D do that they don't like, it would not be nearly as accepted. And I love the books. I'm just not a blind fanboy who thinks it's heresy to critique them or even, gasp, give a favorable comparison to the show.

YES HBO paid 578 people about 60% of the voters to come to a very hardcore site of people that are going to watch anyways. Just like they paid all those millions of people on twitter and facebook that were raving about the show yesterday and the day before. And they also paid prominent entertainment sites to give the episode glowing reviews. Only the minority of people on this site that spend all their time complaining and hate watching a show have any real grasp of quality and writing. Everyone else is wrong. Only this tiny niche subset of book readers are right. .

The thing is, not everyone, but A LOT of the people complaining about the show are doing things like constantly calling D&D idiots and hacks (when that would never fly with GRRM on here), accuse them of having a rape obsession when with the exception of one rape (Jamie and Cersie) they all had some basis in the books AND often times were tamed down and mostly cut out, accuse them of having nonsensical plots when generally it really just comes down to not liking the changes, and accuses people of only liking the show because of special effects, boobs, blood, and shock points. Most of the complaints generally come down to subjective opinion and they all almost deal with deviation from the novels. Hard not to see a pattern there.

Listen I've seen a few of his videos. It doesn't shock me that someone who reads WAY too much into the books and comes up with a bunch of overthought theories that are so convoluted and make so little sense to the point that none of them have a chance of happening, and sticks to ironclad ideas he concocted with no basis to back them up to support his theories, would be one of the people trying to nitpick the hell out of the episode. Just off the top of my head Stannis having a plan even though he most likely dies at Winterfell. That because the they didn't show Brienne's sword go through Stannis he didn't die. Shireen's burning means nothing even though it happens in the books and most likely has the same purpose. That Brienne happened to run into Stannis (when all season everybody knew he was coming to Winterfell). That the battle that took place in an open field surrounded by woods, might have in fact spilled off into those woods. Listen I get things like finding Olly annoying. That's fine. He was clearly just the show runners avatar for how people would turn on Jon. Him existing doesn't not make sense though. Brienne following Sansa to Winterfell after she made a big deal about fulfilling her oath doesn't not make sense. Ellaria who was going against her Prince's back not caring for the life of his heir might be cold and people might not like that Ellaria is more cold hearted in the show. It doesn't not make sense. If anything in Dorne at all didn't make sense it was both Jamie and the Snakes having a horrible plan to get to Myrcella.

Didn't you hear the people that like the show are only dazzled by special effects and kills and boobs. Only the people that hate the show and watch it every week crying about how it's not like the book and say it doesn't make sense (but then when they try to explain it fall flat and keep going down their rabbit holes) understand true artistic merit. And everyone who quit the show didn't post in the threads the next week.

He should stick to his nonsensical theory videos that have no chance of coming true.

Pretty much the heart of the discussion.

A plot hole is a gap in the story that makes something else impossible. Like a character all of a sudden knowing crucial information that was never passed to them by anyone. Or something happening that should prevent another event from happening that ends up occurring anyway. The best way for Ellaria to have her war is for Myrcella's family to be furious that she died. She wants to wipe out the Lannister legacy. Which Jamie isn't really part of anymore as a member of the Kingsguard. Jamie is the least relevant Lannister in the whole affair. Cersie, Tywin, and Tyrion were involved in the trial by combat that got Oberyn killed. Jamie wasn't. Tyrion, Cersie, Tommen, carry on the Lannister legacy. Jamie doesn't. And he would be one of the best people (along with Cersie) to push for a war and retaliation against Trystane. He could kill Trystane right on the ship with nobody knowing and it would speed up her plan immeasurably. Jon doesn't know where his brothers are. As far as he's concerned Rickon could be anywhere. Bran is North of the Wall and has been traveling for month at the least. Stannis only wanted a Stark right there who he could use to mobilize the North immediately. He wasn't willing to wait and he said as much already. So unless they popped up at the Wall, it wasn't worth bringing up to Stannis. Meanwhile, Sansa is in the North and if he can grab her, he achieves the same ends. Which is easier. Once again no use for Bran or Rickon. An actual plothole would have been if Stannis won the battle, Sansa was missing, and Stannis sent out a team to go North of the Wall to find Bran despite not knowing about him. That's what a real plot hole is. You are asking why Jon didn't tell Stannis information that he wasn't going to use and at worst might put his brothers in the middle of Stannis war if he did. It serves Jon no ends. And your asking why Ellaria set up a scenario that could spark a war, that probably will spark war, under the false premise that she cares about Trystane or that Dorne wouldn't attack with Trystane with the Lannisters (which has been proven false with the Lannisters in the same situation).

That's a good question. Most likely Cersie and Margeary fight over the right to be queen in the absence of any make heirs. If they would not allow a female to claim the crown, the closest male relatives to Tommen would be Jamie and Tyrion. Jamie has his KG vows. So maybe it's technically Tyrion (which would make a lot of people happy). Otherwise on the Baratheon side you have no one and even if you go back to the Targs and there is Dany. Realistically I think at this point Mace would just force Marg in the spot with his army and probably try to marry her off to Robin for the Vale, someone in Dorne. Actually I don't think there are any good suitors.

Woah so you are saying that planting the heir to one major House in the hands of another. Then poisoning a valuable member of that other House while they have custody of that the heir and would hold him hostage and possibly execute him wouldn't start a war? You're assuming that Ellaria cares at all about Trystane or the succession to House Martell. She wants revenge. She wants to Dorne to kill all the Lannisters. If Trystane is held hostage they will be forced to act. Just like Tywin acted when Tyrion was captured. And continued to war with the Starks when Jamie was captured. Hostages are negotiating tools. There is no negotiation here. The Lannisters will want revenge. The Martell's will want Trystane. It services neither to give the other what they want. Thus war. As far as letting Stannis know about Rickon and Bran, Jon has no idea where they are. Either one. That doesn't help Stannis. He was going to make Jon a Stark because he had him. He could use Jon. It's fine if you didn't like it. It's just not a plothole.

It was like a minute long scene that established where he was and that he was coming back to Winterfell to create urgency for Sansa and Theon.

I'm sure that regardless Jon's going to come back at some point. And I think most people would rather find out in the books. I know I would.

1. That's not a plot hole. It will never be a plot hole. Learn what a plot hole is. Ellaria wants a war to avenge her lover. She doesn't give shit about Trystane. She has no reason to give shit about Trystane. Dorne can legitimize a bastard if it needs an heir that bad, they love bastards down there. It actually works out better for her plan for Trystane to be stuck taking the fall for Myrcella's death. There's more than one time of poison. And Ellaria is not beholden to something Oberyn said to Cersie (especially since they almost did try to kill Myrcella in Dorne in the books. So much for that. So no not a plothole in the slightest. And it actually helps Ellaria's cause. 2. No you are going to have to explain that one. Virtually everything that happened in Winterfell happened in the books, the only difference was it was Sansa in the show. The marriage, the rape, the crap Ramsay pulled, Reek and the bride escaping (happened differently, but it did happen). All the same. Only a more important character was involved in it. So if it was pointless in the show, it was more pointless in the book because Jeyne Poole isn't as important as Sansa Stark. But she sure got the raped the fuck out of for.. reasons.. 3. Plenty of people went crazy for the Pit scene in the show. Everyone was talking about how much they liked it in reviews, and twitter, and facebook, and whatever. You might not have liked it. Fine. That's like your opinion dude. Oh and toning Mereen down made it a hell of lot more bearable than whatever was going on there in ADWD. Especially because there was some small excitement with Tyrion there if even if it was for fan service. 4. And are you going to argue that the book doesn't have sexism. That rape isn't crammed in their significantly more and that women aren't treated far worse in the books? Yeah no. Jeyne got it worse than Sansa. Dozens of girls that only appeared in the books got it worse than Meryn hitting a three girls in a brothel. So once again no.

What exactly did Tyrion do that was stupid. Yeah Brienne's storyline actually made sense. She was searching for Sansa. She was waiting for Sansa to signal for help. Stannis appeared at the Wall and she avenged Renly. All things that made sense because she swore oaths earlier in the books/shows to do just that. The difference was I didn't have to read nonstop about a Riverlands subplot that I fucking need to because it just said a bunch of things that were already conveyed. Lets see, Dorne in the books had this whole massive plot that ultimately failed, only to reveal Doran's plan with Quentyn, which also failed when he got burned by a dragon. Not saying what we got was any better. But what else was going to get? Arianne's boobs? Got Tyene's. Ary's Oakhart? Yeah he was a real gem to the story. Myrcella getting scarred? Well I got her dead. It was a waste of time in the books, it was a waste of time here. Both could have been been completed with a single chapter of Doran talking about his plan. Last but not least, at least Sansa was involved in something that mattered rather than stuffing her face with cakes in the Vale all season.. Somehow I don't think that would have been much better. So yeah.