The Pale Griffin

Congrats Scafloc. More than anyone you should get some credit for seeing it from near start to present. You're the only one I've seen other than Ran and maybe Werthead who stuck through it. Too bad they won't give you a title on the boards because I would nominate The Great Shepherd as your new one.

I agree with you KBF. Technically, it does not say it is Bloodraven. It is the description that tells you it is Bloodraven. However, we had this discussion about Sarella/Alleras and we decided to make a theories page tying the two, but Alleras got her own character page in the end. That's what I suggest.

I apologize KBF. There used to be a big banner saying spoilers but I don't see it anymore. Therefore with that gone you and mrrandy are correct and they should do more to hide spoilers.

Maybe then a portal to the TV Wiki? Like a big button that says click here for Game of Thrones info and poof - you`re there.

That will have to wait until at least September. That's when the board goes to a new server. Then I think, they will attempt to fix the bridge. Until then we'll just have to make that Spoilers sign in bright neon I think.

I have to respectfully disagree with KBF. The majority of readers have read the books. If people don`t want spoilers they shouldn`t read the wiki. It says on the front page, contains spoilers. I`m all for hiding the different books, but dates of deaths and changes in titles, those should stay where they are. If you change the deaths you have to take everything out of that infobox that might be spoilerific, like the fact that Tyrion marries Sansa or the 3 marriages of Margaery, or knighthoods (like Lothor Brune) or title changes (Cersei, Tommen). At that point the only thing left in the infobox is birthday, name, alias and association. What would be the point of the infobox? It`s there to give you the info at a glance, including if the character died. Even then that would have to change for some characters like Tyrion, who does stuff in ADwD that would change his associations. Even Dany`s title Mother of Dragons could be considered a spoiler to the completely uninitiated. At some point you just have to stop and say, enough is enough. Those who do not want spoilers should just not read until they are finished the books. Especially in a place where it says on the front page, `Spoilers`. Like any encyclopedia, it should be as up to date as possible with as complete information as possible. Furthermore, I would also strongly advise a portal to an area about the tv show. It is not the books and seems to be making changes all over the place. It`s going to be hard for people to understand if we start saying Character X is a mix of Character Y and Z from the books. Elements of this character and the story of that one. Instead of trying to tie the show into the books, it should have its own area and do its own thing.

Legacies? Are we really doing that. The story is not complete yet, and therefore the fallout from certain events is not quite over with. I think we should hold off on the legacies for characters in story such as Tywin Lannister until the story is done with.

I agree.

I think that has something to do with the limited clip art one can find for free on the internet. That or someone, when they read "striding", read it as "riding". It will probably be fixed down the road. Scafloc is doing great things with the heraldry.

Cersei claims that Jeyne Farman married one of Lord Farman's bannermen, that being Ser Gareth Clifton. Should I make Ser Gareth the head of House Clifton? Should I make House Clifton a house of the Westerlands?

Concerning Lew Piper <quote> "I'm Lewys Piper, if it please my lord." "I beat your brother bloody in a melee once. The runty little fool took offense when I asked him if that was his sister dancing naked on his shield." "She's the sigil of our House. We don't have a sister." </quote> Is he Marq's little brother? Would he not have said it was the daughter of Lord Clement or some such thing if he was not the son of Lord Clement. Also in his corner is I doubt that Ser Jaime would take a cousin of Lord Clement and Ser Marq as his squire. So I put the question out there, is he a younger son of Lord Clement?

Woops. Sorry bout that. Meant Aegon II.

As to the dragon with the monkey, what about Aenys I. He made Maegor the Cruel his Hand and much like Tywin and Aerys II, the Hand could have ruled while the mad king played with his monkey. He`s really the only one I can think of. Aerys was too bookish to even attend court according to Dunk & Egg because it was Bloodraven who ruled. The only other one I could think of was Aenys II.

Just throwing this out there, but is all the Young Griff stuff the set up for the Mummer`s Dragon that was prophesied? this being a mummer`s dragon and not a true dragon meaning all his back story is made up by those who want to give him legitimacy.

Is it possible to move those things around a bit. The bookmark and share button, is it possible to move below the categories? Or is it stuck where it is?

In the appendix of ASoS, it lists Eddara Tallhart as the heir of Torrhen's Square. This was written with Ser Helman still being alive. The question I have is a)if the Master of Torrhen's Square is a female, does the title become Lady or Mistress of Torrhen's Square b)How is it she surpasses Brandon Tallhart as the heir and c)now that we know Ser Helman is dead, do I make Brandon or Eddara the new Master of Torrhen's Square?

I thought this filter would be something like what the Tower of the Hand uses.

I've come up with a solution. I will continue to write everything like I am (such as House Tully being expelled), but I will always return the page to its present tense when I'm done like what Scafloc did when I edited the page the first time. That way when you put the filters in, you have both the AGOT, ACOK and ASoS pages up and ready to go, without having to edit edit edit. As for the houses of the stormlands info boxes I will make two, one War of the Five Kings and one post War of the Five Kings. On the unaltered pages like the present House Tully I will put the WotFK and on the altered pages, the post WotFK. What about titles for Daenerys or Joffrey in their intros. Do we call them Princess and Prince for right now?

I will just say this in my defense, since Evrach, who I would like to point out adds nothing to this wiki other than his 'experience', took a personal shot at me, is that if you guys wish to write it a certain way, YOU can write it. Making me do the work while you armchair general is unacceptable in my opinion. I would also like to add that I tried to leave quietly and nicely without causing a stir. No angry words, no huff. Then I get attacked for that. I also stopped work, because unbeknown to me, I did not know there was a rule about the tense of the articles. Scafloc sent me a message, which I admit, I had no idea what he was going on about. I thought he was talking about how I did not put the change of House Tully into recent events. So I changed it back. I apologize for not understanding, but I also will not be attacked Evrach. So keep your personal opinions about my actions to yourself. As to your decision. I disagree with it. Actions are actions and are referred to in the past tense because they have already happened. Having two articles declaring in the first sentence that they are Lords Paramount in the present tense is only going to confuse people. Ditto for two houses that state they are Lord of Nightsong in the present tense for people who stumble onto the site without reading all the way through the books. I was under the impression that this was supposed to be up to date. Keeping Tully as lord of Riverrun in the first sentence is not up to date, it's misleading. That is why I cannot support your decision and why I choose not to aid in the construction of this site anymore.

Good luck with the project boys. I know there is no way to withdraw my contributions, but if there was I would. I wish you the best of luck completing it.

House Tully is no longer Lord Paramount of the trident...in the present tense. However another member keeps editing and telling me that they must remain lord paramounts of the trident. Do I leave them as Lord Paramounts of the Trident, and put Baelish as Lord Paramount of the Trident? Does this apply to the Baratheons who split into three houses during the books? How about Hollard, are they allowed to be placed in the extinct? Character wise, do I put people as dead in their intro, or leave them alive, even though as events fall out, they are dead. If everything is in the present tense, then according to the Dunk and Egg short stories the entire Bloodraven article would be written in the present tense, along with Aerys I and all the other historical Targs. Parren and Targaryen would resume positions of existing house and ruling family....all this leads to confusion. The point of the wiki is to be as up to date as possible, spoilers included. That means if House Tully is no longer the head honchos of the Riverlands, then that should be stated from the outset. If in the article we refer to House Targaryen as the former kings of Westeros, we should refer to the Tullys as the former rulers of the Riverlands. It makes things coherent. This also affects the Whents, the Carons and other houses that have gone under in the books. This severely affects my continued participation in this project.

Actually, they can keep the last name Rivers as their surname. Rennifer Longwaters story of his family said his great (whatever) father put the `Long` in front of his name so that it would show that he was trueborn. However that implies that he could have kept the name Waters if he had chosen to. I can find no information that says Ser Aemon Rivers or Walda Rivers are bastards beyond their name. However since Ser Aemon has the arms of his father and his mother, which if he was a bastard of the Charltons would mean he would have to put the red bar over it, or a red bar over the whole arms, like his father does. Your answer to my question though was that it is another Walda. Another Walda Rivers. Alright then.

Another question of continuity. During the scene in Chapter 49 of A Storm of Swords where Lord Walder Frey is introducing his daughters to Robb Stark there is a Walda Rivers, the daughter of Ser Aemon Rivers. In the appendix there is a Walda Rivers, daughter of Walder Rivers. Same person and just a small continuity mistake, or does Ser Aemon have a daughter named Walda. For the time being I`ve placed her info under Walda, daughter of Walder Rivers.

New question. Chapter 39 A Storm of Swords - Arya. There is a Watty who is injured/killed in the battle with the Brave Companions and there is a Watty the Miller later in the chapter. Same person?

New question. When Stannis made Salladhor Saan Lord of Blackwater Bay...did he establish a new noble house...or is it just a title like Shield of Lannisport or Warden of the North?