Channel4s-JonSnow

'you can't choose who you love' right? He's grown up with her and loved her all his life, she's part of who he is, almost literally. But thats the point, she's also part of the bit of him that he dislikes, the lannister side.

I think its more about how Jamie see's himself. He is clearly conflicted about wanting to be good and having to constantly do evil deeds to get things done. Seeing Brienne seems to be the turning point for that. I'm guessing once he gets back to Cercei he will see the bit of himself he hates within her and start to move away.

I'm not going to argue its not abrupt, or that there hasn't been too much of him in character stasis. But that this is his turning point is a totally valid twist. He meets Brienne again it reminds him of who he could be and it will let him see Cercei in a new light, all of which will come to bear once she's burnt down the city and killed his son. He doesn't have to stop loving Cercei to hate her or want to distance himself from what she represents.

Did you not notice it was Brienne who got him to take the castle in a non violent manner, which he did. The turning point in his character is just happening now.

There's definitely an argument for asking why include these scenes when others could have been done in their place, especially when much seem so rushed this season. But I gave examples of purposes the scenes served so they aren't a total waste of time. That these scenes are also genuinely good means I'd much rather have those in than not.

1) It seems to me to be a predominantly character scene for Jamie and for Brienne. I'm surprised there are any complaints about this seeing as how there is an outcry every episode it doesn't happen. I could ask why RL is important in the books as well seeing as how it doesn't seem to achieve much. But the fact that both are enjoyable on their own is maybe enough. But show version does seem to be setting up events further on down the line, for Jamie, Brienne and Cercei. As well as tying off loose ends with Edmure and Blackfish, as well as bringing the Freys back into the story. 3) He was never a likable figure, that was the point.

1) Why is it a problem that he wants to get back to his sister? 2) Why is it a problem that Blackfish is dead? Other than some attachment to the book story and character I'm not sure I can see whats wrong with it. It seems to me that Jamies arc is simply different in the show, his conflict with Cercei happens later. So what. Blackfish is an utterly minor character, sure if some people have an attachment to him, but that doesn't mean he has to stay around in the series. What did they do to Edmures character that was undone? He was always a craven and incompetent, is he supposed to be on some redemption arc as well?

Your statement was about the whole season being setting up, something actually used as a defence of dance and feast. So either something being boring set up is a criticism for both or not at all.

The hating on the Arya scenes I can kind of understand, even if I don't agree. I can even see the problems with the Tyrions scenes. But I can't see how people could hate the Jamie scenes, nor the Hound scenes, or even the KL scenes, they were all pretty excellent actually, the Jamie ones were actually some of the highlights of this season for me.

Does the same apply to the books?

I think the point of show Sandor is that he's been searching for a way out from who he is, but that he can't change what he is inside. Mirroring Arya's storyline.

Wait a minute! From reading the comments on here I went in expecting this episode to be like someone had done a shit on a plate and filmed it. Turns out it wasnt anywhere near as bad as everyone was describing! I've seen some bad episodes this season and I don't think this was close to the worst. Sure elements of it were not good on some level. I could talk about Arya and how it doesnt make a hell of a lot of sense, from an FM point of view. But then again maybe it does. On some level the chase was enjoyable and I liked how she turned the tables. I also enjoyed how she has gone from thinking the best way to live was to destroy her old life and become no one, but realised she wants to be Arya. Sure it all could have been done better, but on its own it's not that bad. Loved the River run stuff, thought all of Jamies scenes were beautifully done, especially those with Brienne. You could really feel the tension and so much was left unsaid. Loved it. Hound scenes were fun, hes always got some cracking lines! Tyrions scenes were the clunkiest of the lot, but were still better than the previous drinking scenes, so I forgive then that. So really i didnt hate it at all, which I'm very surprised at.

Yeah it felt like an adventure movie that just happened to be set in Northern Ireland. It did have some really good moments, I especially liked the first half hour, because its not often you imagine what its like to be a soldier in that situation, where everyone hates you. There are some great movies out there about the conflict which probably go into more detail. But I think this was a decent introduction for those not that informed.

Yeah I agree with this, it was a decent movie, which had potential to be a brilliant movie, but was a little empty in some ways, falling too much into a number of 'solider behind lines' journey tropes. Might be great if you don't know much about the NI conflict but otherwise seems a bit.. lacking.

I enjoyed it, although it could be considered quite dull in some ways. I think the past 2 Cogman episodes have been of a higher less jumpy quality and are full of some nicely written and thought out scenes.

I'd be interested in comparing the scores of this week's and last, because I think they are very different episodes and those who loved last week's seem less happy with this week's. Personally I thought last week's was cheaply made, rushed and a bit crap, but it did have a lot of incident and surprise. This week was far better written and directed, but nothing of note happened

I know many liked the previous episode, but I thought this was a great improvement on that. I assume many will find this episode boring, and get angry that its 'wasting time' by hanging around watching Sam have dinner and a bunch of actors. But actually I think in comparison to much of this season this episode was very well written, full of good dialogue and interesting drama and personal conflict. It didn't have the big bang moments but seeing as how this season has been jumping from one big bang to another I was rather grateful for that. Things I liked: - Pretty much all of Sams family. I didn't think I really wanted to see any of this, but Randyll Tarly was exactly as miserable and imposing as I imagined, and there were some nice little moments in there. Interesting like about the Umbers I think as well! I wonder if that is significant. - Steps of the sept scene was very well shot, nice to look at and the whole set up worked really well. Big fan of Mace's little speech being totally uninspiring! - I enjoyed the Braavos play more this week, as it seemed to have a purpose. I especially liked that this is hopefully the end of Arya's time as a FM, and that she decided to get out. I think they did it in a nice way too. - Cold hands reveal was great, as was his fight scene which was well directed, unlike last weeks which looked like an episode of Doctor Who. - Drogon looked awesome. Not so liked: - Not much really, I thought most of it was very well done. My only complaint was Dany having yet another shouty speech for no reason.

Its strange, there is a Star Trek Vibe going on here, where every Odd numbered episode is really good and all the Even ones are really crap. Is this some sort of Trekky tribute?

Ok had a bit of time to gather my thoughts. My copy was quite low quality so I'll try and watch a good one later to try and see if it changes my mind, but I'm still pretty unhappy with the things that happened in this episode, mainly because the pacing seemed all over the place. - Sansa: Well I didn't mind this part, felt a little forced but it was to have that interaction between her and LF and really making it clear that Sansa is pissed at him and wants him to pay for what he did. I also liked that she lied to Jon, seems an interesting twist. It all felt rather plot heavy though, like they needed to hit a number of plot points, and couldn't do it elegantly. - Arya: This seemed to go on forever, and I don't know why it was necessary. Why have more fight training? We've seen that so many times already. Faceless man talk was cool. But the Troupe.. I dunno.. something really off about it, and it went on SO LONG. I love Kevin Eldon (who played Ned Stark) but his presence here was wrong, it was too over the top and unrealistic, it didn't feel like a play from medieval times, it felt like a modern sketch show. What was the point of showing the entire Stark storyline on screen? The whole section could have been done in a couple of minutes really. - Dany. What was up with this. It as cheesily horrible, and poorly shot and directed. Felt so soapy. So now all Jorah has to do is go away again and get cured? Ugh. -Bran. Ok I don't know what to think about this, it might be better on rewatch, but my inital thoughts are it was incredibly rushed, for what is some MASSIVE bits of information, to screw it up in the way they did was pretty annoying. The WW's origin is important, so why show it in a such a shoddy way. Ok the COTF look like Star Trek aliens, which I don't like, but they shoved in the way they did it in such a clumsy manner. And now the 3 eyed raven is dead.. was that all he does?! I liked the Hodor reveal, but it doesn't make up for the cheesy Doctor Who style ending.

I gave it a 5. Maybe need to rewatch it but even the great ending was let down by too many cheesy rushed moments. Everything felt rushed and in deserved this episode, even though segments seemed to go on forever

Keep throwing those toys out of the pram.

Season 5 would have had a few episodes I'd have marked quite low, but none would be a one, mainly because there would always be a few scenes or storyline that were still good, despite Dorne etc

Don't worry its all attention grabbing. Nothing more. Theres no logical basis behind it. I don't think a 10 or a 1 is really ever a realistic score for the show.

So you rated it 0 because... swearing?

Precisely, its such a non argument.