Kasamira

Don’t want to speak for saffron, but think Saffron might have meant more like “there should be a septon who raised a stink about this, and the fact we aren’t seeing it at all means the Faith isn’t even a factor much less a person at the negotiating table.” like we do have some evidence that of hierarchy within the Seven, the HS is elected by an analogue to the college of cardinals but we know precious little about them one thing that particularly stood out to me while rereading F&B was that, like our own history, the Faith governed itself. It doesn’t now though, iirc Jaehaerys made it so the faith is answerable in the Crown’s courts. Which is an insane blow to their temporal power! But I can’t figure out if Martin knows that, because it’s one line and then it’s never brought up again. Sometimes I’ll think Martin is making a statement about symbols of power/their importance (especially with Maegor because of the Blackfyre debates) only for it to be undercut soon after. For example, when Aegon was crowned by Visenya and hailed by Rhaenys— its a clear message that they derive their power from themselves. From their dragons. When the HS later crowns Aegon, it seemed like a total Charlemagne reference. Then Aenys goes so far as to get a special Faith of the seven crown signifying how much power the Targaryens are handing over to the Faith/affirming that they are monarchs by authority of the Seven Then Maegor was crowned by Visenya and I was loving it. Completely sure that this was a statement about Targaryens being above the literal “avatar” of the seven. Then Maegor went and got himself anointed and blessed as king by the High Septon. And I know that it’s a total farce that the Faith is exerting any kind of authority by crowning Maegor but…. but it should be obvious to Maegor that that’s what it conveys. Why would Maegor want the Seven’s approval when his entire reign thus far is centered on the fact he doesn’t need nor want it Then Alyssa and Rogar are determined to get the HS’s approval by having him install Jaehaerys as king. I think it would have been more impactful if this was held more in direct contrast to Maegor

I was thinking more about how religion doesn’t seem to have any overarching presence in believers lives. There are occasional references to Maidens Day and Sansa goes to pray in the sept during Blackwater but there are very few internal thoughts about the gods, nor are there outward symbols of their faith (eg crystal pendants, seven sided cut jewelry). The medieval church was a constant passive presence but I’m hard pressed to find examples that aren’t utilitarian (Sansa using the godswood as a meeting place or Margaery using her charities to gain wider support. But the latter example is mostly Faith adjacent.) I totally agree that they should have a small council seat, the fact that they don’t, especially with the High Septon and the most devout being located in KL.

Agreed, I get the feeling (and this is purely vibes based from the tone of the books) that Martin was initially uninterested in portraying the Faith but somewhere along the way it became interesting to him.(Catelyn’s chapter in the sept where she sees people she knows in the faces of the seven comes to mind as a turning point but who knows) Martin’s references and parallels with the Seven and Catholicism are very “window dressing”. It’s like he got the overall look right, but once you pull back the curtain there’s not much there. Imo this is most apparent in F&B, in the main series I could understand. Our Fot7 POVs have much bigger issues than waxing about church bureaucracy (except Cersei in feast lol) Dany’s trek across the Red Waste in ACOK is like a mashup of prophetic imagery, but like Qarth itself, it’s a lot of bells and whistles that melts away like a mirage I think some aspects are satire? Like how in ACOK the HS is so easily removed/bribed. But I think it’s more… dismissiveness/disdain(?) on Martin’s part than satire. Because we do see a steady improvement from AGOT with bad nun stereotypes in full display, to the powerhouse that is the Forsaken (I swear the man must have written it with Augustine’s Confessions beside him). On the Trinity, you’re totally right that the average person in the Early Church wouldn’t have known/cared all that much if Jesus was god or man or both. I was trying to think of a comparison that had an asoiaf analogue and was very well known, but since Martin’s stated portrayal of the Faith is very high/late medieval I think the Trinity comparison works. It’s one of the things that also frustrates me a bit about Martin, but was also very revealing And I hope it doesn’t sound like quibbling over Martin’s verbiage but he’s wrong. He’s describing Modal monarchianism not trinitarianism which is what the Catholic Church has practiced since… well, Nicea in the 4th century. The Trinity aren’t three aspects or faces of god and splitting their characteristics into “personas” is Martin fundamentally misunderstanding the Nicene creed. The foundational creed of medieval and modern Christianity. And that’s insanely useful to know! this misunderstanding of the Trinity (or rather Catholicism’s interpretation of the Trinity) matters because it gives the seven more context as well as Martin’s vision of them vs other in-world religions. (Off topic but, I will say his writings on the origin of the Seven, out of Andalos, really really threw me for a loop and I’m still a bit bewildered by them)

Quite enjoying your write up on the Faith! I haven’t seen enough discussion of them, I’ve never thought about the maid’s blue eyes before and how it might relate to the 13th LC The story of the Night’s King has always reminded me a bit of David and Bathsheba and i think that might also fit with your view of the Night’s Queen in the Faith of the Seven as well! I couldn’t really see where you explained that unless you’re using “organized” and “stable” (below) The lack of schism or codified doctrinal differences may point to intense organization. However based on the Faith’s startling lack of institutional power (or any institutions at all) it seems to indicate something much more decentralized If the Faith were highly organized and had cemented itself in westerosi psyche over thousands of years—you would surely expect them to have long established centers of learning, for the tenets of doctrine to be enshrined quite clearly, and for there to be a visible struggle between monarchy and the High Septon. Except, the only knowledge we have of septa/septon training comes from a semi canonical source that’s pretty lackluster So where? This quote is years prior to Feast too, which does the most to expand the Faith however we don’t see any bastions of training at Oldtown. None of our noble POVs seem interested in currying the favor of the Faith either (not becoming patrons to to monasteries/abbeys, not sponsoring artists, etc…) but the general attitude by Tyrion as Hand is… well, dismissive to say the least Doctrinally we see uncertainty in text over whether the Faith is even monotheistic. But not portrayed in a way to demonstrate faith-based differences but more that smallfolk don’t know/are unaware of the Faith’s teachings on this foundational issue. As for a struggle between monarchy vs papacy (high septon-ry lol), there are a few historic instances. We get Aegon’s Charlemagne crowning parallel with the HS. But if the HS denouncing Aenys for marrying Rhaena and Aegon is meant to be his Pope Innocent III moment it falls far short of the mark and lacks any lasting weight— there is no excommunication in asoiaf, no papal Bull, no way to deny the gods time of grace. The high septon claims spiritual power over the laity but lacks any authority to revoke it. His temporal power is nowhere to be seen. The Faith seems a to be a religion that relies on vagaries. But that makes Martin’s attempts to backfill in Feast and in F&B, all the more apparent.

Aenar the Exile’s birth has been listed as 127 BC or earlier https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aenar_Targaryen and the reasoning given in the link below is flawed (there is an additional note pointing this error out but nothing seems to have changed?) https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Aenar_Targaryen Aenar, upon leaving Valyria, was old enough to have a “maiden daughter” that convinced him of her dreams of the Doom. Daenys the Dreamer must have been a minimum of 12 as per Martin “A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words.” As quoted on the wiki So, in 114 BC if Daenys was at least 12 then Daenys would have been born at the latest in 127 BC Aenar must have been born, at the latest, in 140 BC I think Aenar’s birth date should read 140 BC or earlier and Daenys’s should be 126/127 BC or earlier.