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Hugorfonics

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    Fortunesmeller Baba

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  1. It was an assumption based off generalizing what you were saying. Harren the Black ruled the Riverlands, did he raid that? And mass democracy is just one part of the old way, an ambiguous term that means different. Conflating tongue removal with an iron born old way of life is extremely simplistic and stereotypical based off of one person. Theon was a child raised in the green lands, while he must remember some parts of iron born culture surely most was influenced by his captors, as we see. And the purest is thralls or salt wives, not a war to the death! (Im not, for some reason your just assuming that. Im not defending ironborn culture, just pointing out its a subsect of Westerosi.) I said basically, and I stand by it. "Jaime protects her, end of story." You have misread the passage. Idk how else to say it, she was in her home, raped, and exiled as a punishment, forced to be a camp follower. To not view Pia as a sex slave that Jaime created by putting Bonifer in charge is simply misreading the text. Those crimes are animalistic. The ancients called it natural law, like incest and cannibalism. First night is clearly a thing rumored to be practiced today, to ignore it is willfully ignorant. Jaime considers it a thing, not criminal. Even past the conquest of Dorne there are raids back and forth with them and the Reach. In fact when any of the other culture is seen there its assumed its a raiding party. The red widow was gonna sack Ser Useless' camp, all these raids and mini battles are a Westeros tradition. I didnt. I said Harrenhal may be worse. Of course they fucking suck. The story opens with a 6 year old told not to look away while his father isis's some lunatic. From Sandors ridicule of knights to Tyrions of the wall, we can obviously see that all of Westeros fucking sucks. As the story continues the story gets darker and the lords get greedier. When it comes to sexual assaults, we can simply look at Robert who supposedly took a daughter under whomever lords house he was staying at, which was a time of great peace for Westeros. I didnt mean alarming as in not bad, its obviously bad. I meant alarming as in, the whole world sucked so why expect any place to be tolerable. Again, im not defending, im rationalizing. Its all bad, slavery, serfdom and thralldom. To call them synonyms isnt exactly wrong, however there are slight differences and the one that sucks the least is thralldom. All I can say is, like with Pia, youve misread the passages. I wouldnt call it sad, but not happy. Ashara isnt the only ghost, Brandon as well. Not to mention the constant presence of Jon turns her into a grade a asshole. But, you misread passages all the time, so I guess, believe what you want. Are you really disputing that Westeros is extremely misogynistic? Im not making up anything. 2 wives cheated, one killed the other was thought to be. Thats text. I have something, sure. But nothing substantial, a bit of plantagenet and romonov maybe... but its really not much. For example Ive been told that decapitation is honorable and Gared should be proud Ned got him, but all I see is carnage and doubt that Slynt was killed in a purposeful honorable way. Is it treason? To me treason is like selling nuclear codes to the russians, or like launching coups to subvert the essence of the constitution and the will of the peoples. I mean, I think its obvious that I view the whole medieval society as backwards and dumb and little relation to our life and politics, but if you wanna go by how the middld ages of our times acted (which has even less relation to the fictitious world GRRM invented), then my mind springs to the princes in the tower. IIrc Woodvile was never decalred a traitor, neither alive nor posthumous and her probably murdered sons were just that. Murdered or swept under the rug, not legally killed like so many "traitors" were at the time or how you believe, without text, that Robert would have "legally" killed the wife and kids. And when Arya is threatened with her feet removed if she departs Harrenhal, is that not slavery by another name? What I find peculiar is we don't see as many wives getting caught cheating on their husbands. But from our 2 outta 2 examples, they lead to death and probable. Then they should take a fucking bath. Its not alternative facts, its text in the damn book. Your not even misreading the text here, your just ignoring it. If I were to guess why its because you dont want to see the middle ages as smelly barbarians being all terrible, which would of course be an alternative fact. But thats of course an assumption, so forgive me if im wrong. Your clearly making up laws. The issue is if there are more laws then like whatever the old king said, (first night? lol) we dont really know em like that. The masesters do but theyre not wanted in the Islands which just further confuses the issue. Every female captive taken is ceremoniously taken as a spouse? That seems excessive. That Ironborn have a rock and many salt wives is gross and polygamous therefore misogynistic and class structured in the family, all bad stuff, but it is something of a family. Like Vic was crying, its probable he loved her, its impractical to think that happens with all female captives.
  2. I suppose an Oldtown split is possible, I think it'd be more Agincourt then protestant like, as in more political then religious because for all we can say about the Sparrow, he does seem devout. But I don't really get why they would be against him either when he's been the most efficient HS since Aegon. The faith is mad bureaucratic, way more then the Drowned is, but pre cersei it was toothless. Like there is a board of directors but it seems like all they can do is decide the color of the drapes. Aeron on the other hand is able to influence lords and captains, he also seems to stand above the other priests which does imply some sort of organization. It doesn't really add up that ironborn would dissuade their subjects from their religion, because that'd go against thralldom which was like the go too for ironborn. Although maybe not, I mean Harren ruled something of an empire so idk, either way we do have to rationalize the RL not being patrons of the drowned. It could be the faith in them was strong and like the rest of the Sunset history, post peace treaty, religious tolerance was accepted but it could also be that seafaring culture is what keeps their religion strong, Theon and Asha both fret about dying far from the sea. Or it could be that it was a thing but that was 300 years ago. What I find bizzare are the red priests who do have an organized bureaucracy that send priests to convert Robert and later Stannis/ save the world, and then get excited over Dany without checking back with their agents. Not to mention that one who was sent to drink with Robert is a legit miracle maker but he doesn't seem bothered to tell his high priest that
  3. The Old Way is not war to the death, idk where you came up with that because although Balon and Aaron share different views on the subject neither confuse it with that. And Euron is a slaver, specifically not a follower of the old ways. Obviously Jaime leaving her in the woods like Weasel is inconceivable, what I'm saying is Bonifer punished the victim for getting raped by banishing her from her home and suggesting a job often conflated in westeros with a hooker. It's not confusing, it's fucking disgusting. You don't make laws unless it's a thing. The governor can't fathom having first night because in our culture that's not a thing. And your specifying on Roose when I've pointed out that Walton and men like him, which in Jaimes estimate is lots, rape when their blood is up. The entirety of the free folk culture revolves around abducting women and everything about Shae is sus. Charming. I suppose it's better then leaving them as chattel slavery which is basically the go to in westeros. Iraq and Syria though showed signs of democratic and liberal methods growing in their culture which is a predominant reason why the Islamic states growth is so alarming. If this was back in what we think of as Caliphate times, i.e, the middle ages, it wouldn't be as alarming because all of their neighbors also fucking suck, like the Crusaders or the Lannisters. Idk how many times I gotta say they all do that. I don't have tinted shades for a specific kingdom, I see all of westeros very clearly. The smallfolk in the riverlands for example didn't view the Karstark soldiers as rescuers. It's an incredibly misogynistic society where the boss lady in charge like Cat isn't allowed to say the word Ashara out loud. It is a bit peculiar that there's no other proven adulterer we can look at but from what we got all these situations result in presumed death and Eddard never throws around the word treason for Robert's perfumed reaction. These guys are a bunch of war hawk megalomaniacs, that beating with your love with your fist for giving you horns, well I'd say its an assumed reaction for an animalistic society. Which is backed up by text while the treason Ann boylen thing is not. Which is why I think Victarion didn't break the law. Euron either or Balon would have taken a legal, lethal, approach. And I suppose in a way she was property because in westeros marriage for the women is basically a trap but she was his wife. He thinks of her on the same level as Dany, histories greatest eligible bachelorette. Iirc there isn't any reference for Victarions first wife being a thrall.
  4. I'm not entirely sure what label to give him, but not "old way" which is extremely ambiguous and means different things to different people. But Jaime put Bonifer in command who ruled that Pia is exiled from Harrenhal, the only home she's ever known and forced her to follow Jaimes camp. Definitely in Bonifers eyes she's a hooker, Jaime is a little more woke then like fucking Bonifer yet nevertheless, despite his pleas, she is basically walking the path of a thrall. They all have a culture that allows it, that's what I'm saying. Roose Bolton does acknowledge that the rights of first night is illegal and does acknowledge that if he leaves the husband with a tongue he could get in trouble with the law, but what did that accomplish? If you just look at the awfulness of ironborn culture they're gonna come out awful, but again I say they're at least more pragmatic in a nicer way, for example if Pia were to have kids they'd be smallfolk and susceptible to the same calamity that their mom was, under ironborn culture they'd be integrated and presumably better defended by the kings peace, at the least in a better position to take care of their toothless mother. Victarions wife cheated on him, Eddard assumed the penalty for adultery was death, and there's no reason to think that isn't the case for the rest of the Sunset. Balon certainly took a legality view on the subject which is why Euron was banished, like it's awful no doubt. But it's awful in typical Westeros fashion, Shae was violently killed too.
  5. Or more likely, completely unrelated Because events happen. Like Randyll telling em to cut it out, not introducing her, because they already knew. And it's not like the knights accepted her or that Renly was over accommodating, she had to literally fight tooth and nail, kicking all of of their asses and begged for the chance to wear the rainbow. It's all very antagonistic with nearly everyone present complaining. Obviously it's remotely established becaue they talk about it. You don't belive it and are coming up with reasons why Randyll lied and why Brienne belived him, fair enough. But at the least it's remotely established Yes, sometimes rapists get sent to the Wall, or get their bits chopped off and if this Brienne incident blew up it'd look bad for Renly and Randyll, but that wouldn't make Brienne not a rape victim. It's not like today there aren't laws against rape that are ignored by either the perpetrator or the courts anyway. Of course there are laws, they're just easily ignored by whatever party. Like Robert and Cersei for example. Although in a way he was punished. Only way to properly treat other cultures. Pretty pia is litteraly carried away from Harrenhal. It's by Jaime, so not bad, but that's a semantic and in normal conditions she'd be a sex toy, like how she was used before Jaime. I guess not legally, but who cares, like we established that doesn't make the victim not raped. Slavery in Harrenhal was a thing, they grabbed Arya and co and forced them to to work for no pay. If she was a few years older she'd have gotten Pias treatment as well. In fact the legality to the iron borns debauchery adds a certain safeguard element to it which of course doesn't make thralldom and salt wives acceptable but does make it "better" then the the way greenlanders operate with their animalistic ways and lack of cultural play.
  6. He didn't dismiss anyone during Renlys tenure. He does dismiss Hyle but that's like a year later and has more to do with Hyle being an asshole. Which is a pretty suspect reason imo, but whatever the truth, it's definitely unrelated to the topic above. Yea for sure! No matter what pragmatic reason Randyll decided, it is evident that as terrible of a person he is, some of his knights are worse. Which of course should come as no surprise, we see the same with Tywin and Gregor. The wager itself was real, Hyle admits to it, that there are more unscrupulous characters then Hyle out of like the whole "chivalry of the south" I think is all but guaranteed. Randyll himself admits that there wasn't really proof or even perhaps a plan in the making, just whispering, but nevertheless I'd have to agree that the chauvinism and competitiveness that so encapsulates a knight would, without intervention, lead to sexual assault. Yea for sure, I'd say a good example is Joan of Arc who at court was like, "they tried to rape me all the time," and of course the price for fighting or not getting raped or wearing denim or whatever the official charge was, burning her alive. I think it kinda is, not everybody would do it, like Hyle although he's bit of a douche, but enough peoples would turn the blind eye or just engage for the lolz. Although, yea, not to actual instruments of war, that I think Saan and Cerseis quotes regarding the possible sack in acok shows raping highborn women in times or war is in fact a thing. There are indeed sadly more examples in modern times, and yes, it's used as a power play and terror tactic just like how Tywin and Gregor intentionally use it. Nah, every kingdom does that. Ironborn just give it a name. When it comes to smallfolk we're given plenty of information on the Sunset kingdoms and their ways. Pya is the most notable example, being bounced around from one camp to another but there's also the Karstark soldiers the bwb delt with, Jaimes description of Walton which summarizes the whole of westeros, the free folks abduction of women, etc. The only commander we've actually seen rein in their troops is Dany, who of course is not Westerosi.
  7. While Renly's honorable knights would have obeyed
  8. There is a suggestion. . "Some of these . . . challengers . . . are less honorable than others, and the stakes were growing larger every day. It was only a matter of time before one of them decided to claim the prize by force." "They were knights," she said, stunned, "anointed knights." "And honorable men. The blame is yours." The accusation made her flinch. "I would never . . . my lord, I did nought to encourage them." "Your being here encouraged them. If a woman will behave like a camp follower, she cannot object to being treated like one. A war host is no place for a maiden. If you have any regard for your virtue or the honor of your House, you will take off that mail, return home, and beg your father to find a husband for you." . Westersi are particularly disgusting, now perhaps Randylls views aren't shared by the majority of the Sunset, but surely loads of it. Not only is he implying that she'd get raped but that if it were to happen it wouldnt even be dishonorable. Further he blurs the line between victim, camp follower, and wife. It's all sorts of backwards.
  9. Perhaps but what won him over was it's uselessness. Which kind of implies that prisoners are in fact sometimes murdered,( although Asha is a princess) kind of like how the ironborn who surrendered to Ramsay were all hanged, now no doubt Ramsay is one tilt of the spectrum, but Robb is as well. In fact Robbs kingdom was delt a hard blow with the execution of Karstark, where all his advisors pleaded he does something else. For torture? The jail in the Vale is surely that, or we can look at Cersei or the High Sparrow, the Mad Huntsman just one step above Edmure leaving Jaime in chains and malnourished. I don't think I've seen one instance where a character claims their method of torture went too far (aside from Jaime and Tyrion obvious, and I guess the BWB as well) Definitely not. Brienne was almost raped by all those knights, and they were on the same team. Cersei predicts a good raping and Sallador Saan leaves us no reason to doubt that. Right, which like is pretty ambiguous at times. I'd say honestly the only real war crime, or war no no, we have today is a nuke. After that all bets are off and the rules and fabric of society (not to mention the rest of the globe) will collapse. I mean obviously this is a little bit hyped but I'd say the only rule akin to that is the breech of guest rights which causes fear and anxiety by parties not even involved and will probably hurt their fabric of society as well.
  10. Thats how I feel, unless of course it's also one of my theories.
  11. There are no characters in asoiaf born to be psychopaths. Of the three “big baddies,” Joff, Gregor and Ramsay each were constructed to be the monster they are and if the specific building blocks werent there then they wouldn’t turn out to be “psychopaths.” Joff after crowning is a different level of a monster then before. In fact we can pinpoint his two dramatic shifts one being with Nymeria. And the other being Eddard trying to kick Joff off the throne. Where Joff was cruel after Nymeria, Eddards revelation that Joff’s a bastard turned him into something sadistic and evil. Gregor, allegedly, killed his sister and was rewarded with a knighthood. After his confirmed fiasco with Sandor it was obvious Gregor is cruel and violent and was again rewarded with an elite commando mission to the Red Keep where his infamy was cemented and once again rewarded to the top of Tywin’s military staff. Like Joff, although more and through material means Gregor was not born to be a psychopath but was given rewards and approvals every time he stepped further into decay. And lastly Rams, whos father taught him “a flayed man holds no secrets,” among one of the many signs like the literal signs of flayed men hanging in the castles, was not born to be a psychopath but was encouraged every step of the way, even given Reek to make sure they stay the course. Ok, now for the fun one. Arya Stark was not born to be a psychopath. Arya Stark, when compared to the three above, is not a psychopath. But when looking at their reasons, (Joff-traumatized, Gregor-rewarded, Ramsay- taught) she’s definitely walking the tightrope. Arya, a normal child despite the strict misogynistic society that thought otherwise, was (is) a kind person knowing the difference between right and wrong. But like Joffrey's trauma finding out his dad’s not his, Arya witnesses her father losing her head, as if the past weeks were not traumatic enough, is so monumental it is unrealistic to believe her mental health could stay firmly intact. Of course stealing bread is something Aladdin says is ok yet nevertheless we can see something like Joff’s level of trauma manifesting in Arya. Nevertheless she stays a good person, to the limit of hero vastly different then Gregor’s escapade at the Red Keep. She runs into a fire to save the lives of three that society gave up for dead. Like Gregor she achieved an outstanding feat and was richly rewarded in benefits and ghastly harmed in mental health. Arya was rewarded for her bravery, like how Gregor received his knighthood Arya became the ghost in Harrenhal. Arya didn’t necessarily love being the ghost but feared losing her powers and when she did she, naturally for any child, tried to run straight into her mother’s arms only to be intercepted by Sandor, to name a few. Like Ramsay’s encouragement to follow the signs the universe points, and that of their accomplice, Arya’s past behavior of theft and killings continued and was encouraged. Arya though is not happy, the trauma of her father’s death is now added with her mothers and who she’s become is not who she wants to be to the limit of near suicidal. Unlike Ramsay who embraced his path and accomplice, even physically constructing a replacement Reek, Arya does not think the lives of her and Sandor are worth it. With no mother to run to, Arya follows the sign, not knowing the repercussions let alone the translation to her password but, subconsciously, perhaps where some mental health used to be, knows damn well, and has known for quite some time the meaning of “valar morghulis”. Even the house of black and white though profess to have rules, all men must die but in their own time. Eddard certainly would have said that it was Dareon’s time, due to a misconstrued view that Westeros has of the NW even though commanders like the Old Bear disagreed with it. This largely does I believe start Arya’s reasoning, although the “vile” of Dareon is far from her mind. Eddard continued - Arya Stark of course is not the Lady of Winterfell (well, she doesnt know she is lol) but can, and has, deduced who in her perception is wrong and right, aided along with the trauma, upcoming rewards and universal signs. Joffrey, Gregor and Ramsay do not play vigilante, crimes and wrongdoing are not their concern, but neither does the house of black and white, who does warn Arya that playing the superhero lord, the ghost of harrenhal, is not them. Which I think is really interesting. A sign of discouragement to combat her trauma, but the punishment of temporary blindness turned out to be something of a reward and I wonder if this discouraging sign was actually meant to encourage, similarly if the trauma wearing a new face brings is purposeful and used to distance one from themselves and the empathy and remorse that comes with it.
  12. I mean that's pretty much how it's been since the end of book 1 A stable government isn't necessarily a good one, in fact the more authoritarian the government, the more stable it usually is. That a king Euron would likely to continue the slave trade would no doubt inflame Dany, Stannis would be interesting because of their shared history, not enough to piss off Dany as much as a slave trade perhaps but probably enough. And while I do think Stannis would be a stable ruler, Eddard said as much, he would bleed the realm in his quest for stability, Petyr said that. I guess that's the age old question, if a foreign rulers tyrannical regime is a threat to its population is war justified? Most of course, say no. Things don't look good for any of them, agreed. But I don't think things look good for Aegon either. I mean I really never got this, Dorne is team Dany. Quntyn and Tattered signed a treaty which Barristan cosigned. Two dornish knights coming to Doran now to prepare for Pentos, like its so explicitly the plot. Aegons barking up the wrong tree, for sure. His best decision would have been to latch onto Dany by any means possible which Griff should have seen if his greyscale didn't freak him out of rationality. There's that word again lol. But if anyone could do it, I suppose it's her. After all, Aegon basically did it and she seems to be something of a military genius with multiple private armies. Having said that, Aegon got super lucky in his conquest of most the south until he hit his first road block and almost lost everything fighting against the dozens of spears they call the army of Dorne. Meanwhile Aegon didn't even have to fight in the north which is just luck. Now granted he did not have the armies Dany has and there's no reason to think he had as cunning of a tactical mind as her either, but it's a tough road ahead. I don't think Dany will stabilize the north for her behalf. Was the Norman invasion a bloody affair? I thought William only participated in one battle when he realized all the other pretenders were dead. Now granted when it came to stabilizing his realm he was way harsher then like Henry Tudor was, who iirc was pretty firm with his subjects as well. (But of course greatly overshadowed by the real Henry Tudor lol) I suppose it's up to the subjects on how bloody they want it, Dorne of course will be all too thrilled to be conquered but Tyrell and Lannister are into deep to give everything up, and there's no reason to think Greyjoy and Arryn, maybe even Bolton and Stannis would relinquish their gains either. Honestly the numbers could turn ridiculous, like Napolianic numbers, maybe even Mongolian. There's no reason for Dany to belive Marwyn or whomever tho, Jorah and co drilled that sense of doubt in her head. Of course Stannis was convinced of the cosmic threat by staring into the fire which Dany could totally do too or just dream the future like Targs do but she does periodically question her mental sanity and abandoning Essos to these hooligans all on a litteral pipe dream is I think excessive and not something she would do. Dany definitely would be a help against the others as everyone else would too, and if she were to assist team humans she'd be labeled a champion and it's hard to imagine the crown not falling directly into her lap. But, it's westeros, so who knows lol. There's also the flip side of course, unsullieds don't feel fear and may actually further reinforce the others numbers with their ferocity. And a dothraki horde could give them a calvary while a dragon could give them, you know, a dragon.
  13. Sure, but her whole life too she's been told that Robert is a murderous propagandists while the peoples of westeros itself are waiting for their true, and presumably, just, king. Not exactly true but it what she's been told. He's using the current situation to elevate even escalate himself, not really a platform tho. Like fuck Frey and Bolton but halfmaester makes it seem like thats a fact and not a message that needs to get addressed. It's possible though, certainly early in Griffs war right now. I would say Beric and presumably now Cat use the misery of Westeros as their direct platform but of course theyre not pretending. I'm not sure. For instance even without a democracy, she hasn't invaded yet. She does want to invade but what she wants more is to do justice. Which is what's holding her back now, she can't just leave essos to rot, despite her generals pleas. And for sure, she could make up some affront that hurts her idea of justice, like almost every conquest in history starts with, but she's good people and doesn't seem the type to war on the righteous. But who knows? Like why's she gonna invade now I think is gonna still take some convincing and possibly some Darry like lies on behalf of Tyrion. Actually Tyrion could confirm the Darry story, that's pretty funny. I hope it comes down to something trivial like that but it'll probably be the others.
  14. Yea, not off to a great start I mean there's Lafayette who was an aristo who fled France, but word. Just nitpicking, because ideological motivations sometimes are stronger then familial or monetary. Yea there were Louis' brothers who would like be all to happy to take the Ramsay way and just flay em all but then semi rational people like the cousin who was put in by counters after spending a life of exile after the revs killed his dad but even he realized there was at least some good to happen with the revolution, like some ideological motivation was recognized and respected. Dany isn't from westeros but what she says is kinda true. Like "Robert was no true king , didn't do justice" there is an ideological motivation to Dany, she believes herself a force of good where she felt physically incapable of leaving the unsullied to the slavers. So like if the usurper and his dogs, or their kids, changed Westeros from whatever dark ages shit it is to something better I could see Dany reluctantly staying away. But since the Sunset is wartorn and in desperate need of a wise and benevolent ruler with frankly an iron fist there's no reason to not let the hate and vengeance flow
  15. Oh nice! So we've gone from doubting the memory of the victims to straight, uppity bitch was asking for it. It's great to see how far we've come since the middle ages
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