Hugorfonics

@sweetsunray Correct thread lol. Sry I'm not sure if the faith and andalism is in itself detrimental. That they're taking over is without a doubt, Ned builds the Sept presumably to get his wife to stop saying the word "Ashara" out loud, his father I guess didn't forsee the dilemma of andalism because of his southron ambitions, but I agree the Septons are not there to play ball. After all, we hear stories of Greyjoy acting the ref, "your outta here!" But I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Just because Andalism is wrong doesn't necessarily make Ironbornism right. Or First Menism, if the Andals brought writing instead of getting a magician who can speak chirp on Mother's Day, then that's definitely a good thing. What we truly do know of the First Men is that they were feudal as fuck, for all extensive purposes, history begins with the builder of Winterfell, so that's not necessarily chill. Did Andals appropriate them with the constructs of fortresses like Twins and Harbor, sure but they're kinda cool looking too. Less magical then Stormsend but just as good as keeping the average smallfolk out (or just as useless at keeping smugglers out) And if knights truly were an appropriation too, as I think they were too, then the boujee attitude and non stop misogynism that are synonymous with knights may be an andalized thing, but they were always murderers. And if, like I also like thinking, that knights were directly influenced by the NW well that's not great either as the Knights Watch is possibly the most deprived, foolish and heinous orders I've ever read about. Although we are definitely encouraged to root for First Men. The story opens with Bran after all and despite the politics of Sansa, the wars of Dany and a song of Jon and Snow, we all know who the real main character is. And despite the wanton red flags, the main character remains the hero. But likewise we see the political backdoor dealings, lies and deceit, torture and chauvinism that the High Sparrow spews, but he's still kinda good, right? Or at least his knights, Lancel. That weak piece of nothing, but, maybe the cause will be good for him? And while I agree the 7 leave much to be desired, they're still a better master then Joff

@sweetsunray I'm not sure if the faith and andalism is in itself detrimental. That they're taking over is without a doubt, Ned builds the Sept presumably to get his wife to stop saying the word "Ashara" out loud, his father I guess didn't forsee the dilemma of andalism because of his southron ambitions, but I agree the Septons are not there to play ball. After all, we hear stories of Greyjoy acting the ref, "your outta here!" But I'm not sure it's much of an improvement. Just because Andalism is wrong doesn't necessarily make Ironbornism right. Or First Menism, if the Andals brought writing instead of getting a magician who can speak chirp on Mother's Day, then that's definitely a good thing. What we truly do know of the First Men is that they were feudal as fuck, for all extensive purposes, history begins with the builder of Winterfell, so that's not necessarily chill. Did Andals appropriate them with the constructs of fortresses like Twins and Harbor, sure but they're kinda cool looking too. Less magical then Stormsend but just as good as keeping the average smallfolk out (or just as useless at keeping smugglers out) And if knights truly were an appropriation too, as I think they were too, then the boujee attitude and non stop misogynism that are synonymous with knights may be an andalized thing, but they were always murderers. And if, like I also like thinking, that knights were directly influenced by the NW well that's not great either as the Knights Watch is possibly the most deprived, foolish and heinous orders I've ever read about. Although we are definitely encouraged to root for First Men. The story opens with Bran after all and despite the politics of Sansa, the wars of Dany and a song of Jon and Snow, we all know who the real main character is. And despite the wanton red flags, the main character remains the hero. But likewise we see the political backdoor dealings, lies and deceit, torture and chauvinism that the High Sparrow spews, but he's still kinda good, right? Or at least his knights, Lancel. That weak piece of nothing, but, maybe the cause will be good for him? And while I agree the 7 leave much to be desired, they're still a better master then Joff Eta. Lol wrong thread

Before Reek, in Theons old life, he had another horse. And although idk Smilers color, he did go up in flames

But it's dishonorable in the eyes of the world, in the eyes of history, assuming Jon died along the way, or disinformation spreads which it does. I agree, but theres an in between time when he ran away from Ygritte and his other companions which led to not just their deaths but hundreds of others at the hand of Stannis. Mances war would be an invasion and bad but the plight of the Wildlings is depressing, waiting to get gobbled by the others isn't exactly good. So while I agree that when Jon was in command he acted with honor but when he was obeying commands it was questionable. Ideally is a Sansa tale. Yes but according to Webster's definition that's still honorable. It's a paradox. Ok I thought of another knight. Ser Frog. Is stealing from the queen honorable? Colluding with sellswords in the dark of night? Doesn't sounds so. But is understanding the Queen's desire that a dragon has three heads, with the stability of his home and father at hand honorable? Absolutely. It's all about the way you tilt your head Course No I'm sorry for not being so direct Ned, there's little to Robert that I'd call good or honorable. Then or agot (Robert the mad I was alluding to, who isn't Aerys but isnt exactly sane either)

Wild! Are we speaking a different language? Lol So when Halfhand told Jon that their honor means nothing compared to the safety of the NW, Jon kills him and defects to the wildlings. From Jon's perspective I agree it's honorable and right but form the outside he'd be a turncloak. Dishonored his house and reputation. And only so he can actually betray Mance who's war and flight is just. It's complicated If the absolute monarch is honorable? Even if this could be the case his successor may not be. And for sure if the king just likes to stay at home and binge TV or whatever then the job of his guard is not dishonorable, but the only chance to prove ones honor is to pull a Ser Arys whos death, although honorable was needless. (Arys is interesting because aside from sleeping with a princess he was a pretty good knight in Dorne, he really did protect the other princess. However only a few months prior he beat another princess out of her dress. In some circumstance knights can be honorable, in others?) There was a character who was probably true of heart, we see him in the main after all and he shows striking signs of morality and badassery. That man betrayed his king, decimated his army, stormed the capital and overpowered the throne room. I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?" He did what he had to. While drenched in his own families blood he ended the reign of the mad king. "To put an end to Targaryens!" the king growled." And replaced him with another. Honor, justice, brute strength, something more is needed

Physically? Idk Jesus? I still think it's largely logistics, some politics, but the staggering death toll after their victory I don't think would dissuade them, in fact Mongols were known to be sore losers. They'd just go harder if they thought their reputation was at stake. And they took Mohi The whole purpose was to use Hungary as a launching pad, like Mongolia was a pad for China. However the pad wasnt as big as they thought and decided it'd be insufficient as a launch pad for Germany or France on the mythical Atlantic, which they totally wanted to see. Hungary itself isn't worth it. Huns had their fifteen minutes of fame, but after the brilliance of Atilla the Huns vanished from politics, swept aside by European muscle. Perhaps the Mongols didn't stay precisely because the Huns failed a millennia ago Lol don't tell the Hungarians that. After Bela saw his entire noble class wiped out and some of the greatest orders of knights in the world now permanently vanished, he went straight to telling Europe how he saved the day. Kinda like how Hungarians love naming their sons Atilla because, in for a stag in for a dragon, Huns are actually the ancestors of the Hungarians! See, Hun Hun garian, the math checks out! But of course the Magyars are as Hunnish as they are Mongolian, however on the other hand, Atilla is a badass name and the castles of Hungary are very majestic looking so who the hell really cares lol?

And glory as well? Thats not the definition of honor. Your thinking of morality maybe. adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct: sounds nice, but it also sounds like some ironborn will take your lunch money Arrest the king and let Ned kill him? He woulda loved that Every knight we meet is false. The ones who ascribe to our idea of a Galahad are Dunk and Brienne, neither knights. I dont think we should bank the entire world of Westeros as good stuff because of two good apples who lived a hundred years apart (ones whos completed stories are mysterious to us btw) Sansa will move forward. I very much doubt she'll commit to going full on Eddard but is more likely to walk the thin line between Cersei and Littlefinger. (like Sansas right now chilling with the knight of mad mouses, hes trying to kidnap her. Knights and Sansa just dont get along. Like we explored in this thread, Westeros is under a facade. The bright patrenty of southron living is coming to a close, winter is coming and shits about to get real. I dont see Sir Galahad stepping in to kiss any wounds

More so the just a dude on a horse though. And its kinda its own social class too. Or at least occupation or whatever

Me too! lol. I think my order of fantasy was lotr, once and future king, discworld and then years later finally asoiaf. Maybe its been like 10, 15 years, but I loved The Once and Future King so much. Totally geeked. (Galahad and Polliver (no thats an asoiaf guy...) three knights find the grail. His boy from Wart days, Galahad, and pullsomething? These guys were unbelivabaly bland and too micky mouse like for my taste, even as a teenager. But Galahads dad? The whole story of Galahads inception when momma pretended to be Gwenaviere and then finally for the first time, but damn sure not the last, betrayed his king. I thought the story of Mordred and his mom/aunt or stepmom/wife was too weird but I loved the dynamics with his brothers. But really, the story of Lancelot, the greatest knight (ignoring the other 3) is just so deep and imo crushes the general ideas of honor, loyalty and love. (also shout out to The Sword in the Stone! Back when Disney hand drew everything) So thatd be a French outlook on a Welsh story about a Roman? Positively Andal. But nah, this perfect man can be seen in like Hercules or whomever. Loads of heroes from the classical world, some real like Greek Leonitus or Roman Cincinnatus. Romans loved honor. A lot, like, get a room. Ok, so whats chivalry? Tmk its just roman style honor (dont beat your wife in public, dont kill the slaves of your inlaws, you know honorable for Romans) but slightly less killing. Instead of forcing the patricians to commit suicide (super honorable thing to do) you ransom the lord for like half the wealth of the realm. But plebs and serfs have no stain on honor or the chivalrous code. Maybe your soul, but you can worry about that later lol Lol exactly. But times change I mean, Dicks still cool. But like Bran was telling the honorable story of the rat king. And thats a terrible story lol Yea, Romanticized. Thats her. Saphire Island. (For sure, Jaime started as this bright opportunist kid and is now anything but. Hes a weird chap. I know hes as cynical as I am, so he knows its all dumb. KG? Its his son! But he walks the path. He tells Tywin its because hes tired of highborn women kicking shit on him, but thats just dramatic. I think Jaime himself is at a crossroads, not knowing what action to take but for the first time in his life is responsible for himself, and as LC is now finally in a position of leadership. More like the Father then the Warrior.) Briennie in acok was also this bright and opportunist kid. And no matter whats been thrown her way (dead Renly, maimed Jaime, consistently failed every mission) shes still kinda got that spunk to her. But, yea, maybe it will be the vows to a zombie or whatever that finally wakens her up to realism. Loyalty, check. Brute strength, what can it do? Go toe to toe with the kingslayer in chains while trying not to kill him? Impressive. Sufficient? The Brave Companions thought it hysterical. I mean, you know Im rooting for her. That it is!

Thank you Like he won't pray to the Warrior but looks to the Stranger for support? Or what? Serwyn is just so Valerian! Lol Yea I'm speculating too about the shieldhall and what the deal with that is. A cornerstone point of the NW is you leave your old life behind, so why flaunt your house? They're also kinda similar to bloodriders, so it's not like it's solely a Westeros tradition. And just like I think the majority of Serwyn are stories, I think the same of the Builder Yea the OP was referencing that too, although this is the first I hear I think of Ser Wynter. Which is awesome. Reminds me of like 17 and 18th cent documents about pirates. Or as they called them, pyrates. Yea I got no idea, although tbh I don't think Joramun was real either lol

I just came out of a long discussion about that. Basically my stance and takeaway was she seems like a nice chap but she's in way over her head and is juggling things no human can keep handle. (I also think she's compromised with her allegiances to Stoneheart and kingslayer but they're not that bad really so maybe they can all be friends) The most striking image is her putting more armor on Renly when he died. Should she have put on even more armor? Now what's she gonna do to keep the skinchangers safe?(kill the faceless men? Outmaneuver Littlefinger? And im pretty sure these girls are where they want to be and are not tryna get kidnapped, again) Now no doubt she could die for them, like Ser Arys. So perhaps that's what an honorable knight is, a corpse. Also what's honor? A horse? For example the Ironborn think it's honorable to take somebody's lunch money. It's not just that it's a description of a code impossible to live by or achieve anything great but it's also one that means differently to different people in different situations

Jaime's quote alarms quite loudly. Betraying one oath for another. Swearing to die for your victim is not honorable, despite being the only rational move. So drop that clause and go anarchy style, like Berics? Until they get corrupted by human emotion and serve the Stoneheart. Now even Brienne may too (at the very least she's a true maiden) if she stops working for the Kingslayer that is. Many a good knights serve tyrants, like Ser Davos. Many a other knights think their doing good like Ser Jorah or Ser JonC, but are in fact dancing to the Spiders tune. Whatever the Faiths intention, they choose correctly in summarizing true knights, hedge knights, sellswords, ironborn. wildlings dothraki gladiators and Moonboy for all I know as a Warrior. A sword with a minimal conscience, like a nights watch man, or a wight. But it's really just Sansa was always going on about them until she met the finest knights in the world who beat her bloody like clock work. So I'm pretty sure she's over that idea, and consequently so am I.

Hungarian castles stopped the Mongols like Hoxhas Albanian bunkers stopped the Soviets. Just because your under martial law building a fort every block for your entire long reign doesn't mean the enemy covets your land. The Mongols were told Hungary has beautiful endless steppes, which is why the Hungarians took it all those years ago. When the Mongols got there they saw the steppes, although beautiful, were not endless. If that's not a thing in Hungary it's not gonna be a thing in the Alps either. Horses need grass. Big horse armies need big areas of grass. Like the Reach

Serwyn of the nights watch maybe? (Although I still think (maybe more because of @Mourning Star great post and quotes) he's mostly a Valyrian myth, taken by the Andals along with maybe some heroic Crow. Maesters lie. History should not be trusted. But whay of the myths that septons wrote? Lol. So speaking of why believe anything, the NW has forgotten a lot. And like the cynic I am, I don't think any knight can be truly honorable, I have a hard time believing the prison at the edge of the earth was ever an honorable position. So, what's good with this room? And how should we interpret it?

Word. Cool. Thanks Interesting! So knights "honor" first, and prowess second. That's a rarity For the life of me I can't understand the concept of a "true knight". It's totally antagonistic to asoiaf. Yoooo! I think got it! What's the oldest order of knights in asoiaf? The knights watch.

Interesting! So warrior first chivalrys idea of an honor code later. Kinda like the other languages. (Lol, damn windmills!) Yea for sure. I'm just interested, especially since yesterday when I started thinking about this stuff lol

Like in what language though? For instance, tmk, in Spanish a knight is a Caballero which means Gentlemen, which sounds more chivalrous then the Germans Rider, which sounds more warrior like

Yea, what's with them! All of Essos is marching against Dany, all except a few. Like the slave city, founded on slaves and fighting enslavers. So naturally, they offer no support and when Cersei defaulted, around the time Essos is marching against Dany, the bank sends a blank check to Dragonstone. Like, I think Stannis is a brilliant commander and negotiator, but mainly because of his work against Mance. The blank check was sent out before that then. When nearly everyone thought Stannis was done, and Aerys' kid was a dragon having aspiring conquerer. Sketchy. Nothing is guaranteed, but dragons are scary. In Essos they call her mysha or the stallion so I don't see much rebellion in Essos, and in Westeros many are used to their Targaryen overlords, probably some even want em back when paying homage to Frey and Lannister. I definitely don't think it's a coincidence that her ancestors empire of the Freehold is now in construct and her father's kingdom of Westeros is in the midst of like a 20 teamed civil war

Dany definitely abandoned Aspator to it's fate, while in Yunaki she trusted her enemy who bent the knee to remain bent. Both were disastrous. She definitely does not want to repeat that tragedy in Meereen and wants to administer it as it's queen in the name of justice. I don't see that changing. And while the pull of KL isn't as strong as it was in agot, it's still a constant in her and many advisors minds. Why realistic? Its fantasy. Dany has dragons that can get her or her two other riders to anyplace in the globe fairly quickly. There's also characters that can skinchange and tell the weather across the narrow sea as there are glass candles that function like some type of land line. So I do think she can create an empire and hold one in the classical style. But their classical style, not ours.

I'm not sure. She won't abandon the ghiscari nor do I think she will leave the Dothraki to their fate. I do think she's going to successfully fight off the war that's started against her and and along the way subjugate Pentos because her and Dornes honor demand it. This leaves her already with an empire to rival the Freehold. Which just leaves Westeros. Also seemingly ripe for the taking

Ahh we do! Good reasoning. And I could totally understand why a language that can be read is preferable to one that you need a bird for. Ok cool. Common tongue is an Andal thing. I mean, reading is nice. But definitely agree and see your point about the trial. The pen is mightier then the sword. Very good. Yea lots of rewritten/appropriated/coordinated history about things things that may or definitely did not happenen by people who, if it wasn't written, I'd say they never existed either. I mean what's written? Paper doesn't last. Did Andals have paper? So its also written by septons from the transcribes of other septons, over thousands of years. I love this stuff tho. Fake/real history. Like how Tywin sacked and brutalized KL so 20 years later after his son saves the day he rides in and takes all the credit and posthumously gets a statue dedicated to the savior of KL

Yea I hope it's true. But mainly because its like that stupid joke. But also cuz it's pretty cool and creepy, like Brans stupid stories. If Aegon disrespected the faith he'd have exacerbated the war like crazy. Yea he had a big dragon, two medium ones, two sisters one maybe brother and sellswords and fishermen, against something the size of China. Cowboy up and there will be a new sheriff in town. But Maegor wasn't born to be a cowboy (although of course he was) he was born to be a king, they said so! Its different when a man wants to be king, he must gain trust and support. But once the dynasty has been founded, rebellion gets crushed

Enough time, that's for sure. Knights, how we know em, like that story that John Lennon gave back his knighthood cuz he didn't want to be associated with thieves and murderers. Oh I love that. Asoiaf has too many kg beating Sansa and just straight blunt talk from Sandor and Jaime to convince me knights are anything admirable. But if it's not knight but night? That's kinda cool. Creepy shit, winter is coming, Bran always wanted to be a night! Bran wouldn't beat Sansa, he might skinchange Theon, so it's all kinda terrible lol. Aegon had to tread carefully, he barely made it out of his conquest. Just lots of luck compounded with the cravens we call Westerosi. So he kinda had to do what Oldtown said, a few times. But the Faith doesn't really wild out, they kinda play low key. Less then the maesters. Aegons kids thought otherwise which leaves us in this weird vacuum we know for the past 250 years, but, thanks Cersei!

Exactly though. The smith is doing a job that sailors and cobblers don't, but are relatable. And a smith, ask Gendry, is a distinguished job in the Westeros age so it's like kinda above cobblers. Like not every one who lights up for the father is a father, they just want that generic advice and look out. Sometimes people, or actually usually people pray to the mother, many a dudes. They don't necessarily aspire to be the god but wants it's essence or something. So why not knight I think is a valid question, especially since they're all about them and no other culture, except all the other ones, allegedly use them. Was trial by combat a first man thing or Andal? I think first man, which seems very knightly

Eh? I'm not a fan of that cop out. Sam had to do the whole act, like he was pulled over for drunk driving or something. He couldn't just nod and say "you know me", which if it was just magic I think would totally suffice. Although I do think there's some magic involved, if Bran for instance said the words I dont think I'td open.