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Everything posted by Thandros

  1. I like to think it's because that have some limited ability to see the future like the green dreams of Jojen and they've seen just how badly wrecked Westeros is going to be by the current civil wars that are ravaging everywhere and it gives them the best shot of ensuring victory over the living. Interestingly a couple of other conflicts are associated with nasty winters which suggest preemptive awakenings associated with conflict which didn't pan out and they went back to sleep which definitely gives the idea that they're looking for opportunity.
  2. Tywin horribly misplayed his hand here and it only worked out at all because of a massive stroke of good fortune. When Catelyn took Tyrion Twyin had a nice safe option of appealing to the king. Appealing about the illegal seizure on spurious grounds of one of the members of their family and demand he be returned. Eventually reports of their arrival at the Eyrie arrive and they are summoned back to King's Landing and both sides have their cases heard and everything ends up working out. Tyrion is released once the falsehood of the evidence is revealed and Catelyn perhaps escapes any serious consequences by playing on female stereotypes in the world of Westeros and Tywin gets to ensure vengeance on the person responsible by having Baelish executed for his role in masterminding the entire thing and maybe gets even more influence by arranging the replacement master of coin. Assuming Joffrey's role in the entire thing doesn't come out the Lannisters have firmly come out on top and can possibly extract a bit of grovelling from the Starks to enhance their prestige. Except they'd have to work through the king and Tywin doesn't really like having to rely on people above him to achieve his goals. It would particularly in this case the limitations of his power and I doubt he could stand that. Instead he decides to find a plan b which results in one of the many poorly thought out hare brained schemes that dominate most of ASOIAF's plot. He decides to effectively break the King's peace with raiders with only the most basic of steps taken to prevent revealing who was behind it because Tywin clearly thought that people knowing he was behind it was a good idea when it probably wasn't to lure Ned into an ambush. Right and then what? Assuming Robert isn't killed by the boar (Given Cersei was relying on a drunken hunting accident to remove him it easily have gone poorly for her) he's now had his best friend been kidnapped and held hostage. Good excuse for a war if Robert wanted one and now he can significantly improve the realms finances in one fell swoop. Most of the realm would eagerly side with him in such a war. Tywin has no serious allies to call upon who would actually stick with him and even the lords of the Westerlands might decide not to join him in a suicide conflict. This of course assumes that he is unaware of Cersei's actions which seems reasonable. If he is aware the plan makes a little more sense as a ruse to cover a military build up which can be legally unleashed once Robert is dead and Cersei is regent. The entire thing does suit Tywin's personality and his desire to send out the right messages from his point of view. A preference for dramatic statements of the risks of opposing Tywin Lannister and his wrath rather than more intelligent displays of cunning and diplomacy would definitely fit him to a tee. Dramatic overreactions to deal with problems in the least efficient way is definitely how he normally deals with most problems. He got lucky as Robert's death allow him to turn a seemingly inevitable disaster into a fairly advantageous start to the fighting in the Riverlands. If Robert hadn't died he was looking into serious possibilities of major issues in the future as had to figure his way out of the corner he was boxing himself into regardless of how well it was working out for him.
  3. Maybe but weirdly it could make a lot of sense him ending up king of Westeros. Most of the other surviving members of the great houses are either going into any post war resolution council to figure out who should be in charge with lots of baggage that would arguably prevent them becoming king without vast opposition. The Baratheons are likely to be all dead in legitimate lines that aren't distant cousins. Robin Arryn may not survive and Harry the Heir doesn't exactly look like kingly material from what we've seen if he survives. The Lannisters of any relations have no hope. The Greyjoys fall into the same boat. Edmure is likely to be the only Tully to survive and he's not exactly looked upon well by everyone so he might get pushed aside. The Tyrells have historically struggled to control their own region and they come from a lesser house before the conquest and that assumes Cersei leaves any alive if she has the opportunity to get her way. The Martells might be in an alright position after everything has ended but it's possible Arianne meets an unfortunate end if she gets too closely involved with Aegon and Tyrstane and Doran might not be in an ideal position if backing Aegon ends up getting them badly burnt. King Bran basically requires no Targaryen claimants of any merit to be in positions of power so assume Aegon and Dany kill each other or remove themselves from the game in some dramatic fashion and Jon decides maybe he just wants nothing to do with it and wanders off or his legitimacy (if he has any) is called too much into question to be taken seriously. That leaves the Starks and Bran who have had much more shit done to them than they've been dishing out and Bran himself has spent a good chunk of the civil strife lost or beyond the wall conveniently not making political enemies. The fact he can't walk may only encourage ambitious lords hoping to take advantage of a weak king to support him in hopes of crippling royal authority. I think King Bran in the vacuum of legitimate leadership (possible given the Baratheons look likely to die off completely and the Targaryens I don't think have much better odds and the Martells may end up just as badly and have been diplomatically isolated for almost a generation) has a number of advantages. He has few hardened political enemies who might bare grudges against him and may end up with powerfully allies in a number of regions depending on how the cards fall at the end. His opponents to take the position are largely discredited and he may well have other actions he's done to encourage support. Of course this would all seem to be at odds with Bran's principal character journey of ignoring temporal power in favour of higher spiritual or magical power instead e.g. Bran won't be a knight but he'll learn to fly instead. Of course his victory in the game of thrones could end up being construed as the limitations of physical means of exerting authority as against more esoteric justifications of authority and power. The Lannister faction had all the manpower and gold it could in theory ever need but it hasn't helped them one lick in actually consolidate authority over the Seven kingdoms. The Starks and Bran in particular have very limited or no forms of conventional power yet they may end up triumphing in spite of these supposed limitations.
  4. Duskendale actually has an answer. The retreating Northerners are caught by Gregor Clegane on the retreat and shattered. Some dead, some possibly captured and the rest scattered into the woods and countryside being hunted by Gregor's men. Whatever small number limb back to Harrenhall with news of the fighting are insignificant. Condon and Stout we can assume possibly elected to accept Roose Bolton as Warden of the North and rejoined his army as it made it's way north. Jonelle Cerwyn who was brought south with her father presumably was still with her men and Condon at the fords. Also the Stouts host Ramsey and Roose Bolton which he might not do if he'd suffered recent losses of both men and a family member of unknown relation like Barbrey Dustin does when she bars Ramsey from They probably all end up back in the North having accepted Roose Bolton as warden of the North at least for a while. It's one of those things which is more implied than outright stated and I might still be wrong. There are probably roaming North men in the riverlands. Some of broken men who are surviving either by banditry and trying to live off the land by any means necessary as they try to make their way home. Some might have joined up with both halves of the brotherhood without banners or other bandit groups. Soem amy be dead having turned to banditry and been killed by the locals or killed by the locals who thought they'd turned to banditry. At least some of the Karstark men have this fate as when Arya visits Stoney Sept some of them are prisoners in cages for their acts and dying.
  5. That would be great... except their are two problems. One Lucian wasn't attempting or pretending to write history in the slightest. He was making mockery of fantastical stories presented by those who came before him. His entire 'history' is a story told basically from his perspective about his fantastical journey. The True history is clearly at least attempting to present some form of historical narrative or at least presenting historical events. The second problem is that Ἀληθῆ διηγήματα arguably translate better as a True Story rather than a True History particularly given the context of what is referring to. At which point the name similarity dives right out the window and you're left holding meaningless straws. Also Questions has serious problems by placing the last Kingsmoot so late. Given the Greyirons are supposed to have ruled for a thousand years before being overthrown by the Andal invasion it either places the Andal invasion way too late or the Andal arrival in the Iron islands was much much later than elsewhere in Westeros. Then again everything about Ironborn history seems to have been a mess.
  6. Three possibilities. 1. The reference to bacon instead of bread was a mistake by GRRM. 2. There is some deep symbolic meaning here about Tyrion's guilt which is weird since the charges he's being accused of he's a completely innocent scapegoat set up by Baelish and the Tyrells. 3. There are several hours between Tyrion's breakfast and the end of the duel. By the time he duel's over and Tyrion vomits are the horrific scene in front of him of Oberyn's skull crushed by the Mountain the bread has already left his stomach and as such is no vomited up. The bacon was part of the blood sausage possibly as part of the filling distinct from the rest or wrapped around it and the blood had broken down sufficiently or given the state of the arena wasn't noticeable. Also I doubt he's been poisoned at all. Oberyn is implied to be drinking the same wine and I doubt he would risk disrupting his preparations by poisoning himself in the process even if he knows how to deal with it.
  7. For one by the time Ramsey has Moat Cailin Euron is already crowned and they've heard about it in the North so it's at least weeks afterwards. Second the revolt is happening regardless. Robett Glover's failure is a cover for Manderly plans to revolts. Pretend he can't muster men to fight while in reality they're being mustered in numbers for the plan. It's not clear if Davos has succeed in his efforts to retrieve Rickon but It looks very likely that Manderly will move against Bolton regardless. And while yes Dustin and Ryswell are on Bolton's side for now he's lost the Karstarks very quickly since only the branch was on his side and the mainline has no desire to aid the Bolton's and even the Ryswells and Dustins only back Roose and if he dies they'll flip faster than anything against Ramsey. And sure the Ironborn were definitely treacherous and they probably hate them. At the very least they didn't break guest right and aside from Theon they didn't break any sworn oaths. Not a lot but they might decide to run with it. It's not a perfect plan but none of the plans at the Kingsmoot are much better.
  8. Thing is Asha's plans aren't that bad. While becoming lady of Ten Towers (She won't become Lady of Harlaw Rodrick makes that clear but she'll gain a valuable castle with good lands) would be a nice prise being in charge of a castle under King Euron or Victarion would probably end up an unpleasant experience in different ways(At least some of Euron's boasting is true. He has a suit of Valyrian Steel armor so he must have gone to valyria and survived. Given the suggests on what he's planning I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him with real power in his hands). Her plan as Queen relies on the idea that while the Starks are gone the Northerns aren't just going to accept the Boltons as Wardens and a revolt will begin swiftly against them. Given the dislike of the Boltons (only really the Dustins and Ryswells are their side at all, plus the treacherous Karstark branch, and even with them their are serious doubts about their loyalty) by supporting such a revolt they can one earn favour with the Northerners for helping defeat the worst traitors in the North. Given the relative strength of the Northerners they would definately be the weaker position in such a negotiation. They may consider from a purely practical standpoint consider giving up the mostly valueless lands of the Stoney Shore and Sea Dragon point for support against the Boltons and Iron throne worth it (they may also not consider it worth it but they don't have a lot of options at this point). They also likely hate the Boltons more than the Ironborn at this point so working with the lesser evil is something they may consider even if temporarily. And the Naval forces of the Iron born are a huge asset if they can drive those Loyal to the Boltons and the Iron Throne from the North. The Iron Throne really by this point only has the Redwyne fleet to face the Iron fleet and it's not exactly clear which fleet is superior. WIthout the Fleet of the Iron Throne itself it's unlikely the Iron throne can easily defeat the Iron fleet in battle. SO Basically once the North has locked down Moat Cailin the Iron Throne would have few options to actually attack the North. They can't really in such a situation pull the Redwyne fleet from the West to support a landing in the east lest the raids the Ironborn unleash do enough damage to cripple them economically. There other ships probably aren't enough to deal with the Fleet Manderly has mustered at White Harbour and attacking Moat Cailin from the south is a fools errand. Unless Asha grievously mishandles the Iron fleet and loses it against the Redwyne Fleet she should be able to force the Iron throne to a stalemate at the worst while at the same time being the first Ironborn ruler to have possibly made permanent gains in abut 400 years.A good position to set up a reformist rule to fix some of the Ironborn's many problems. And she is right in Clash when she upbraids Theon for trying to hold Winterfell. He had no chance of holding it. The fact she flees to Deepwood Motte which she has no chance of holding is mainly because she's out of better options. It'the one place she can be certain of temporary safety and staying would likely only result in getting herself killed off by Euron (or worse). It's fairly clear she only intends to stay long enough to consider her next move but Stannis shows up right as she figures out a way to overturn the Kingsmoot.
  9. I half wonder if while treated as marks of greatness they actually are something quite insulting the people carrying them in actual Ghiscari but since the Ghiscari have lost most of their original language they no longer understand the insults they have included in their own names.
  10. Umm the same reason most castles have sally ports. A well timed and executed sally against an unprepared enemy can devastate them such that they are forced to retreat and abandon the siege. Given the nature of the wall it's possible the gates are later additions and the black gate was originally the principle way through designed to ensure only black brothers left or entered. It might say something about Other tactics that such a thing might be considered necessary. Something to consider is the concept of the red herring or maybe the term coincidence means nothing to you. Of course you've probably got some theory about the number seven because it appears everywhere in the older stories. Even though it's just Septons inserting the number everywhere they can. Not every tiny match up of numbers is going to be significant. Because those castles have equally been rebuilt and coastal erosion. Pyke sits on a series of Stacks. They erode away. Not quickly but they do. The sea tower sites on the outermost sack and is the oldest because it's stack has been around the longest and will likely be the next to fall into the sea. It's simple geology of coastal erosion. Waves attack rock and erode it. Weaker rocks erode faster to create arches. Arches collapse to form stacks. Stack erode and topple to form stumps. It's not a precise process depends on the rock but it will happen eventually. This isn't even speculation the descript of Pyke in AWOIAF literally says this happened over time. The oldest part of Winterfell must be somewhat older than two thousand years old and I find it unlikely the oldest part of Pyke is that old. Also None of these castles were likely actually built by Brandon the builders. He's a sort of mythic figure not likely to actually exist. But a Bunch of old castles claim to have been built by them despite probably only reaching their current form thousands of years later in much more recent times. No it doesn't. When a language borrows a word sure it's the same for a time but Basque borrowed from the Latin term Regem perhaps two thousand years ago or maybe a little later it's hard to say. It's long ceased to be a latin term and aquired a basque nature and a basque set of forms. It's ceased to be a foreign word in Basque but a loanword and as such a part of basque. Or do you consider half of English to be a different language.
  11. One possibility is that different kings have merged to together over time defined only by their stories. Kings with the same name would end up looking very similar particularly if their stories lack distinguishing marks to tell them apart.Also do you think the Ironborn universally noted as unintellectual would have the capacity to organise the forgery of thousands of records in the citadel in such a way that no would be able to ever tell the differences and then have those changes applied to records of the Ironborn kept elsewhere. Westeros has a fair degree of the centralisation of knowledge but I don't think it's so extreme that even the Ironborn could falsify a huge amount of history. With the Night's Watch at least you could easily have several in a year without problems assuming elections are held quickly and given the nature of the job you easily expect to lose Lord Commanders fairly routinely and remember the History of the Nihgt's Watch goes back 8000 years or so plenty of time to have 998 Lord Commanders and Samwell finds some very old lists listing only 600 or Lord Commanders so they have records detailing their Lord Commanders going back quite some time at the very least. Errege is King in Basque not Latin though it is apparently derives from Latin (which if true would be a very interesting thing to try and understand about very early basque culture and their organisation). The numbers thing is probably another coincidence. It should also be noted while Lonely light and it's rocks are grouped with the Iron Islands in every sense they are unconnected. They're eight days sail away. That's no small distance so far beyond that they will probably not show up on most maps at all. Ummm no. That is all rubbish. Remember this detail. The Greyirons were wipped out by the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands (The Hoares do have some andal blood some marrying Andal wives to strengthen their position). Also Torgon Greyiron comes at least a thousand years prior to the end of House Greyiron and the arrival of the Andals in the Iron Islands involving timelines and tales of a some what dubious note. At the very least he comes from teh Kingsmoot era which is the older section of Ironborn history and probably pre Andal which makes this all highyl unlikely at best. Also the Black Gate isn't for sacrificing children. It's likely an old secret way across the wall that can only be used by the Watchmen to come and go in relative security for leading sorties or scouting their enemies undetected. Harren's brother and Harren have no evidence of coordination and it's more likely Harren forced his brother into the Night's Watch to secure his position. So is Winterfell's oldest tower and no one suggests they are secret Andals. Given the location and state of Pyke it probably losses Towers at a routine basis as their stack are eroded away by the sea. it's probably younger than the First Keep in Winterfell by a considerable margin. The island was a pirate den but nothing to suggest the builds were. Likely the pirates were Ironborn when they held Oldtown in the distant past. I should note the settlement is said to have originally been found by a sea faring people though given the suggestions they may not have travelled the sea in any conventional means if the deep ones are behind it like the Seastone chair and the Toad stone among others. It certainly gives some creepy edge to the Ironborn worship of the drowned god but I don't think it says much about the Hightowers themselves or whatever connections they have. They may have arrived and taken over the original oldtown some time after it's founding.
  12. The Thing with Qarlon the Great is he must lie a little earlier than you say. Lorath was unoccupied for more than a century so it's more likely that the Andal occupation ended around maybe 1800 BAC or even earlier but certainly less than a thousand years before 1436. IT certainly works with the beginngings as early as maybe 3000BAC with the earliest Andals pulled across by promises of land and wealth while the last few were pushed across by fear of the Valyrians perhaps as late as 1500BAC but I doubt any serious groups of Andals cross after this. I agree it's possible some Essossi Andals survived around the site of Braavos after the end of the Andal invasion I don't think they were destroyed as late as you say. Theon Stark can't be as late you claim. His invasion of the Three Sisters and the Fingers would probably place him during the war between the Waters so closer to 2000 BAC-1000 BAC if you assume later dates for the War between the Waters. Another thing to note is at least some Essossi Andals were integrated into Pentos to some to give the Pentosi a measure of Andal blood so at least some must have linger on or around the site of Pentos. Most other Essossi Andals presumably either integrated into Braavos or lingered in the hills of western Andalos and diminished into nothingness. While I think your right about the Valyrian Steel since most swords with dates go back to that era. The thing about the Sept of Dragonstone is that it probably only goes back to the Targaryen arrival. The statues of the seven are noted by Davos to be supposedly carved from the masts of the ships that brought the Targaryen's to Dragonstone. The sept was either built or organised only after they arrived perhaps as an attempt to integrate better into Westerosi society they intended to connect with. Your Ironborn stuff contains several problems for one the dates you gave Qhorwyn Hoare are the last possible dates for his son Harwyn Hoare who probably actually ruled earlier roughly 110BAC to 70BAC assuming his son had a reign of twenty to thirty years. The actually order of Ironborn kings is definitely a very messy topic. Kings who must have ruled after the end of the Kingsmoot are claimed to have been selected by one. I half suspect the entire Iron Island history section of AWOIAF is little more than an unordered collection of stories like Herodotus' dealing with the history of Egyptian pharaohs. Qhored I is about the only early Ironborn king we can even guess a date assuming both the tales of his power and his destruction of the Justman's is true (assuming their aren't two Qhored's with different dates if so these dates would be for the later Qhored) can't date much later than around 1000BAC unless the Teague's and other intermittent dynasts of the Riverlands lasted a lot longer than is otherwise said. With this said I'd put Harrag Hoare and Ravos before Qhored with them representing an early return of Ironborn power before Qhored briefly exert genuine authority over much of the west coast before the defeat of his successors drove the Hoares to engage in trade and friendly dealings with the Greenlanders leading to Harmund and Hagon. Of course it also possible Qhored Hoare was the later king and an earlier Qhored GreyIron or Blacktyde was the original one with stories of the two getting merged into one. Either way the Ironborn history is a mess and we can't properly make heads or tales of it. Someone's either made a mistake or it wasn't properly thought through somewhere. I doubt Qhored was looking for anything in the Citadel archives as it's an early Qhored I doubt the Citadel would even exist and even a later one I doubt would be hunting for knowledge of dragons or something like that. As for the Mormonts I'm inclined to believe they are old and that the Northern Conquest of Bear Island originally took place during the pre Andal invasion era of Ironborn kings since It only seems reasonable a Greyjoy would be King during the Kingsmoot era. As for Jorah Mormont being called an Andal he's only done so by Dothraki who don't or can't distinguish between the different ethnic groups of Westeros so call them all Andals. One thing to consider is that I don't believe we ever get any good descriptions of the fortifications of any Essossi Cities. Round towers and such are better for defence but trickier and more expensive to actually build. Simple practicality would dictate that most buildings are built square with only towers built for defence being round except if whoever was building them had artistic vision in mind.
  13. I was simply pointing out outside forces exploiting internal divisions to take over is hardly uncommon. I'm not sure how that is deflection all of a sudden.
  14. It is but it's hardly the only time an outside force has exploited local divisions to their own advantage. the conquistadors in Mexico and Peru had were similarly able to exploit local differences to their own advantage in taking over and Caeser also initially does in Gaul. It's hardly uncommon scenario. Look hard enough and you can find it. Possibly but they were Andal ideas made by Andals who came over. Given the time involved saying anything is impossible but the faith in it's most basic form must predate the Andal invasion to a degree and emerged in Essos. Some of the other stuff may have emerged later in Andal culture but who can say.
  15. The Stormlanders are the Anglo Saxons. Invited in to deal with a disturbance in Britain (Riverlands) aiding one side against the other and then refusing to leave and end up taking over. The Iron born conquest is the invasion of the Vikings. They initially defeat the Local forces of the Riverlands (Northumbria and other Anglo saxon kingdoms) and eventually manage to win victories against the men of Wessex (Stormlands) and they were able to claim control of part of the Kingdom of the Stormlands, the Riverlands (Northumbria and East Anglia and elsewhere). It's a very rough paraphrasing at best and misses some details but mostly works. On the Iron age. Some Iron artifacts made by smelting go back as far as 1800 BCE the general consensus that large scale smelting began around 1200 BCE long before the end of the Dark Age (a period which really only refers to Greece, the other regions have their own periodization which often doesn't match up.) That entire last section is a random hodgepodge of different myths tales and legends of no historical value. Maybe people did believe them but I doubt anyone would seriously claim to be descended from them. Theories exist but that doesn't mean their right or important. You seem to think every thing is connected with the right wacky interpretation I can produce an answer that will answer everything and fail to realise in the process you've created theories that lack any basis in anything. If you want me to give a serious answer please produce a serious piece of writing to analyse in the first place. Slapping every myth you find together does not make an argument. The Hoares when they controlled Oldtown could alter the records all they wanted but they can't change the fact that when Aegon landed Oldtown and the Hightower were held by the Hightowers as bannerman to the Gardener Kings. "The Greatest city in all of Westeros, Oldtown was ringed with massive walls, and ruled by the Hightowers of the Hightower, the oldest, richest, and most powerful of the noble houses of the Reach. … Thus it was that no men from Oldtown Burned on the field of fire, though the Hightowers were bannermen to the Gardeners of Highgarden." Fire and Blood p23-25 There literally in the text. The Hightowers ruled oldtown as Bannermen to the Gardeners. No uberpowerful Hoares ruling everything and only stopped by the arrival of Aegon. As for Euron. I think conquest is the last thing on his mind. Kings age and die, their realms crumble around them and turn to dust and ashes in their hands. Gods live forever though both in reality and in the minds of their worshipers. Just a couple of things about the Vandals. One they were a germanic people not vikings. Viking is a particular Norse term refering to an activity not a group of people and two the Vandals never invaded Britain as a group. They crossed the rhine in 409 into Gaul then entered Spain before eventually invading and settling North Africa before being effectively destroyed when the Vandal Kingdom was conquered by Justinian. One the greek view is highly reductionist and extremely inapplicable particularly if you are trying to compare polytheistic and monotheistic religions. It often won't work very well and you should really analyse culture with it's own context not try to force it to fit another. First point is that the connection between Earendel and dawnbringer relies on a possible connection across different language groups from opposite ends of Europe. Also Koine greek develops into Medieval Greek before Old English really begins to appear depending on who you ask. Second with the Morning Star you once again cross cultures and language groups to assimilate the Morning Star and Lucifer. Lucifer is the Latin name for the Morning Star not related to Lucifer of the Bible. It relies on mistranslation of the Hebrew Old testament through Latin into English to create. it's not important. And then you compound by mistaking the given grammar. David is the bright morning Star not Jesus. The section in the comma refers to the individual before it not the one at the start. One if you've forgotten Zeus was the son of Kronus so he cast Hyperion away from nothing. Two Zeus didn't have children until after the overthrow of Kronus that part doesn't make sense. Three given I've broken the Morning star, jesus and lucifer connection already the rest makes no sense. Iaeptus is equated with Japheth. They're not the same chracter they come from vastly different mytholigical underpinnings. Trying to make them the same is just the wrong thing to do. Aphrodite is much more commonly said to have been born from the cut off private parts of Ouranos. Also Greek myth is mess with different places having different beliefs and ideas which don't always come together. The casket is a casket. They decided to give it a bunch of different images on all it's sides from different places and peoples. The connection to Troy relies on the incomplete lid which is disputed as to what it refers. It's hard to place anyone's actual belief based purely on what they placed on a casket. Very important for early anglo saxon art and culture. It suggests they had knowledge of familiarity with a wide variety of topics to carve into it. I'm not sure what your trying to go with here. Also they ain't the ancients. By the time of the poems they'd have entered the Medieval period. The object Frodo holds up is a Phial containing the light of Earendil not Earendil the star or the person. The Star's in the sky and the light is the Silmaril Earendil carried to Valinor and then bore upon his brow in the sky forevermore. Earendil is the father of Elros and Elrond who traveled across the sea from Beleriand to Valinor to because the Arda to provide aid against Morgoth.
  16. Great idea the andals were always in Westeros. One problem we have at least one account of Andals that you can't exactly disprove because of poor records. Qarlon the Great who led an attack on Norvos and provoked Valyrian retribution. Also if the Andals where never in Essos where does Andalos get it's name from. It would be a great theory if it held the slightest bit of evidence that would actually allow it to exist. Ok this goes from unsubstantiated theory making to out the window madness. Ok one Azor Ahai and christ have very little in common except for being important figures in religion. Azor Ahai is a warrior hero while Christ very explicitly isn't. There's a lot of stuff that's very dubious in their including the crazy stupid idea that the Vikings are somehow related to the Lost tribes of Israel. I can't explain how stupid that is. You mention technological progress as a means to determine your 'timeline' So assuming the conquest correlates to around the norman conquest so 1066 onwards dating back to the beginning of the Iron age puts the date around 2300 BAC or perhaps a bit earlier than that dating in the ancient world is hard. For the first men assuming they have reliable access to both copper and tin we could probably not unreasonably take the date for their arrival back towards maybe 7,000 or 8,000 BAC. Based on the evidence for organised smelting in the real world at lest 6,000 years BCE and maybe even further. Like I said dating anything in the ancient world is very hard. Your decision to compare the viking invasion to the Andal invasion is curious given both have better comparisons. The Andal invasion is perhaps better compared to the invasions of the sea peoples which played a role in ending the bronze age kingdoms of the near east and could be compared with ideas from Greek myth of the Dorian invasion. The anglo saxon migration and the viking invasions are perhaps better compared with the Stormlander conquest of the river lands (beginning with the arrival of the saxon/stormlanders to aid against domestic enemies and they end up staying) and the Iron Born invasion of the Riverlands. The long Night/ Trojan war comparison is rubbish. The Trojan war in greek myth was the swan song of the age of heroes, their last great deeds and a plot by Zeus to kill off as many demigods as possible, so it falls better right before the Andal invasion where as the long night falls in the middle of the age of heroes and lacks an obvious historical counterpart (unless you want to start considering flood myths though that may relate to the breaking of the arm of Dorne).
  17. The thing is the Wolf's den is the name for White Harbour before the Manderlys arrived to found White harbour a thousand years before Aegon's conquest. This means at the very least the attack on the Wolf's den occurred over a thousand years before Aegon's conquest and the king's who launched the attack are not the original king who began the war at the very least it occurred a generation or more after the start of the war. Given that the Lord of Sweet sister believes the Rape of the Three Sisters occurred two thousand years ago according to the Maesters I'm willing to go along with that date as a reasonable one. A lot of the rest of the early I've already contested so let's get to the meat. What I think is going on is massive over reach by you based on sources from different periods into some massive Ironborn empire which never really existed. The Hoare sigil marks historical conquests. By the time the Maesters really come into existence they've long lost Oldtown and other areas and it for example doesn't mentioned the greatest Hoare conquest of all the Riverlands. It's likely the sigil is a later post Andal creation which reflects the historical might of the Hoares. As for the issues with Qhored Hoare the obvious answer is. There is more than one Qhored Hoare and our sources simply don't distinguish between them. One who was a great king during the olden early days of the Ironborn before the coming of the Andals who conquered a vast empire and a second later one after the Hoares became hereditary kings of the Iron Islands who fought and defeated the Justman dynasty. Given that Qhored Hoare was the greatest king of the Ironborn in their early days then is makes sense that they would name some of their sons after him. We see it everywhere else after all. The Hoares at Aegon's conquest ruled the Iron Islands and the Riverlands and nowhere else. If they did we would have seen references in the actual text to Ironborn control of these areas. The Night's Watch was simply led by his brother at the time he had no control or influence over them let alone the lands in between. The Crabs are references to Hoster having cancer which I believe the ancient Greeks described as crabs pinching the stomach or something like that. Not something to do with Ironborn or some other wacky conspiracy. What do I think is going on? Once again you worked up a crazy theory in your head from a bunch of half gathered references from different points with little connection and tried to call it some idea of Ironborn domination of Westeros only stopped by the arrival of Aegon the Conquerer.
  18. One Jenny only claimed she was a child of the forest not that anyone actually thought that. Jenny's mental state is hard to grasp so she is probably wrong about. We actually meet this supposed COTF. They're the ghost of high heart and she has some odd appearances she doesn't look like a COTF so scratch that one. As for Leaf walking the lands of men can mean a lot of things. Given that common is reasonably widely spoken among the lands beyond the wall their might even have been significant need for her to even cross the wall. Also she said she did it to watch and listen and learn. None of that means anyone saw her. The fact her heart was weary could easily be that she'd been alone for so long that she wanted to go home and meet someone to talk to. Just because she took the time to go into the lands of men doesn't mean anyone saw or her and if they did. Would anyone else believe it to be anything but the rambling of a madman. It's said by Maester Kennet in WOIAF that the first men and early Andals didn't build round towers when noting the age of the first keep. Perhaps some of the first men did build stone castles with square towers but not round ones. If there isn't any evidence of the early andals or first men building round towers then any castles with round towers must either post date the Andal arrival by some time or had access to far superior stone building techniques than the early Andals. Winterfell's inner walls are noted to be at least two thousand years old and the outer walls somewhere over a thousand years. the first keep is older than both so must be closer to three thousand years old or so which is long after the Andal invasion if you place it out at four thousand years before Aegon's conquest. What you've is taken two statements which say different things and taken them to be saying the same thing. Let's start with Oldtown and the seat of the high septons. For one the Starry Sept wasn't even around when the first High Speton was chosen and this would have been many generations after the beginning of the Andal Invasion to start with. The next sections you don't quotes notes that oldtown became the unquestioned centre of the faith in the cneturies that followed. Also the sources of your quote is Pate a novice of the citadel of dubious capabilities who may not actually know how long the Starry Sept was the home of the high septon or he may simply be paraphrasing the exact amount of time which is longer but he says a thousand years because it sounds good. The stuff with the glass candles would place their arrival around 1100 BAC which based on your final estimate would mean they arrived before the Andal invasion. As for the Arryn issue just because the crown is said to have been worn for a thousand years doesn't mean it is the only crown they've ever worn. It seems quite reasonable to me that the Arryns could have had two or three different crowns in the past with the older ones being lost or destroyed. The original could easily have been lost when King Roland II attacked the Riverlands and meet his end to an axe wielded by the Hammer of Justice. The stuff with the Blackwoods is only relative to the Andal invasion so not really relevant to everything else. A counter point to your timeline is the number of Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch of which there have supposedly been 998 including Jon Snow. Given that to elect a Lord Commander the order needs to gather for a vote and elect a candidate by a two thirds majority you can't have multiple being selected and dying in the same battle or perhaps even the same war. Given that several whose rule we know lasted far longer than the two year or so average we'd need for your numbers to be right (the night's watch was founded at the end of the Long night we must assume) including Osric Stark who was leader for sixty years, Byrnden Rivers who led them for thirteen years, Jeor Mormont for ten or eleven and the Night King who led them for at least thirteen years and probably much longer. Given that Sam can find lists containing hundreds of lord Commanders you have to push the Long Night back quite a bit further to fit all of them in. Also while in ASOIAF some legends are indeed true such as the others that doesn't mean all of them are accurate tales of the distant past.
  19. Sure the Maesters are unreliable but they are certainly better than the singers you use to make your arguments about the Andals being in Westeros thousands of years before their is any evidence of them crossing the narrow sea. The about the COTF is that everyone thinks they are completely gone until Bran wanders into a cave and finds a few. Nobody seems to think they are around at all so the Maesters are hardly unique in this at all. The reason why the Andal castles have weirwoods is because the early Andals were smart enough to realise that trying to convert everyone by force to the seven was a fools errand and kept them as a gesture of reconciliation between the faiths as a means of strengthening their hold in Westeros. Given that Humfrey Tegaue's attempt to do just that hundreds or thousands of years after the andals arrived provoked the revolt to topple his dynasty you could understand why conciliation might have been preferred particularly when the control of the Andals was still weak. The gates of the moon has square towers because it is old. Early Andal castles had square towers and when later rebuilt they replaced them with round towers because round towers are more tricky to undermine. Given the location of the Gates of the Moon it is quite likely it is more vulnerable to being overlooked than undermined. As such the expense of rebuilding it's towers may have been too great for the benefit it might provide particularly given that the square towers aren't actually the ones at the very front of the castle. Storm's End's perfect wall is clearly very odd. Maybe it's final form wasn't even built by the Andals themselves but by other even more skilled stoneworkers at some point in the distant past.
  20. There is no serious evidence for the Andals being in Westeros at that point. The castles for one can be rebuilt and repaired and updated. Tales of the ancient castles being built in their current forms is ludicrous and even the Maesters simply believe the castles got rebuilt at some point to their current forms not the Andals were around thousands of years earlier than they were said to be. The earliest Hightowers were built of wood and clearly the actual stone Hightower was built after the Andals showed up. Almost all of the accounts of Lann the Clever make him a first man. The handful that don't are clearly tales of a more dubious nature and not to be trusted. Galladon of Morne is associated with Tarth the island not the house and the claims that he's an Andal also place him much later than the other tales possibly a champion from the Andal invasion when Morne itself was built or at the very least the set of ruins currently associated with Morne. Symeon Star Eyes wasn't a knight it's just that the singers gave him that title because it sounded better for their hero to have a knighthood you know when you're singing to an audience influenced by Andal values of Knighthood. Serywn of the Mirror is clearly such a mix of different tales and legends from different points of time and history that telling anything about him is nigh impossible. If the best you can muster are the stories of bards to support these claims (a source so dubious no one takes it seriously), rebuilt parts of castles and other baseless claims. The stuff about the Andals being involved in the breaking of the pact is reasonable but that probably only because the Andals invaded and killed most of the Children of the Forest long after the Long Night and the end of the Age of heroes.
  21. First problem. Lucamore wasn't even a Kingsguard during the attack at Jonquil's Pool and the knights who did come to her defence are known, Ser Joffrey Doggett and Ser Gyles Morrigen (p199 of Fire and Blood). As for Ryam crowning Alysanne queen of Love and beauty I think you read too much into it. The gifting of a rose is something stated to be done by Loras at the start of every joust and I think you feel it is too important given he would have given out perhaps a dozen by the time he gave one to Sansa we don't know enough about how many rounds the tourney had. Though it was the only red rose he gave out that might have been because it was his last joust of the day or because Sansa had red hair. It doesn't seem to be a wider tradition anyone else follows any where I've seen. You've tried to make the stories of four characters match but all of them have problems. Sansa was never queen of love and beauty she was simply given a rose by Loras after a joust an act he does to multiple unnamed women during the same tourney.Maris the Maid's story is probably entirely fabricated. Tourneys are the past time of knights and there weren't any knights before the arrival of the Andals. Likely singers have simply inserted a tourney into a song or story about Maris the Maid which may have been dubious in the first place. Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar though and everyone agrees on that even in story. Ned places her lasts words in his mind right next to his confrontation with the Kingsguard in the red mountains of Dorne. As for your attempts to use etymology on Alysanne name to compare her to Lyanna it doesn't really work. For one none of these people's names actually mean anything. These aren't the Early Germans of Late Antiquity who did have names which meant something. There names picked for reasons which we aren't given but presumably Alysanne was a girl's name somewhere before hand. we don't exactly have a broad sweep of names from the early period to judge if it was around beforehand. Two the se add on you note is placed randomly with Alysanne's name compared to Lyanna which means it no longer holds it's meaning anyway.
  22. A couple of errors. They don't exactly affect the theory though. None of Rhaenyra's children likely had Velaryon blood unless you think their Strong like appearance came from her and Laenor was actually their father. Aegon III had no Hightower blood at all. Daena the defiant is the child of Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon not Jaehaera. I'm not sure what the entire connection is with dragon hatching I prefer to think the Maesters had something to do with it rather than it being a conspiracy involving an extinct house. Of course if you really wanted to go ham on all this Strong stuff with Lucamore the Lusty being Baelon and Alyssa's father then why not go the next step and suggest Viserys during his reign somehow became aware of this which is why he was so insistent on making Rhaenyra heir as she was the only one who could arguably make some kind of legitimate claim to the throne and marrying her off to Laenor an attempt to restore the correct line of succession as painlessly as possible. It of course assumes that you think Lucamore and Alysanne actually had two children which I don't buy to be fair. The other stuff about the Strongs being connected to the Starks. Maybe but I don't think the German translation of Stark being strong helps your case since you could technically translate the German stark as stark (stark possesses an archaic definition roughly meaning strong) and they are both cognates so you could argue they are the same word. The Starks are probably related to most houses of First men origin somehow and I'm not sure what would make the Strongs so important. The more interesting way to translate Stark is through Kashubian where Stark translates apparently as grandfather or old man which I sure if you wanted to could allow you to go ham on theories if you wanted.
  23. Two points. Roose owes Joffrey absolutely no loyalty. He sworn no oath to him whatsoever and legally owed more loyalty to the Lord of Winterfell who was executed on trumped up treason charges. Two legally Robb had every right to be King. He'd been support to be declared as such by his Northern Bannermen and the Riverlords. Arguably he had more right to be King in the North and King of the Trident than Joffrey ever had as King on the Seven Kingdoms even after his victory. I guess it depends whether you believe in divine right of kings or popular sovereignty ( in this case the people in question being the lords and landed knights rather than necessarily the general populace). A third point even if Walder was the host Roose was clearly a big part of the conspiracy around the Red Wedding and without his involvement Walder may have elected to be more cautious in his methods of ensuring the Stark's downfall rather than open breaking of guest right. Roose is still guilty of conspiracy to breech guest right even if technically he wasn't the host. One last point of Roose. The only reason he opposes Ramsey killing Barbrey Dustin and turning her skin into boots is that she is one of the few certain allies Roose can count on and as such needs her support and that Human skin boots aren't very good. The only difference between Roose and Ramsey is that Roose has just enough intelligence and self control not to do something stupid that people will hear of it and to keep his crimes nice and quiet. No doubt the list of his crimes against his smallfolk are almost as long as Ramsey's.
  24. Given that the Targaryens haven't had dragons in over a century by the end of the rebellion the Targaryens are little different from the Valyrian nobility of Volantis or elsewhere with a major difference they at least in part hold Westeros stanch opposition to chattel slavery. Dany herself confronted with the Horrors of slavery tries to put and end to it with little success. No doubt the Sea Lord thought that a grateful restored Targaryen dynasty would be strong allies against the Slave Cities in Essos. Dany didn't have to travel to get to Viserys she was with Viserys the entire time. She's never been to Dorne of that much I'm certain. No there is virtually none. The only serious 'clue' is a comparison by Barristan to Dany looking a little like Ashara's daughter. Given that Jorah thinks Dany looks like Lynesse surely she could Lynesse's daughter as well if it wasn't for the fact that Dany is Rhaella's daughter born on Dragonstone. The Targaryens have Dornish support isn't anything new. Also Willium Darry isn't William Dustin the two are distinct characters and there isn't some false identity stuff going on here. It doesn't. Maybe Maester Walgrave and Oberyn knew each other but nothing really connects onwards. Willum Darry was a known master of arms at the Red Keep. He can't suddenly become William Dustin after years of service to the Targaryens. The only Northmen protecting Dany if Jorah who arrives years after the supposed arrangement would have occurred and nothing suggests Dany was born to Ashara Dayne. She's called Stormborn because she was born in such a massive Storm and Dorne simply doesn't get the Storms the Stormlands/ Narrow sea gets.
  25. The problem with Dany and Viserys being in Dorne is how do they end in Essos? If they were in Dorne somewhere why did Oberyn and Doran suddenly dump them in Essos? Why does Viserys have no knowledge of certain Dornish support for him? Wherever they were it must have some connection to Braavos since the Sealord of Braavos was a witness to the marriage pact Williem Darry agreed with Oberyn (also would the Sealord freely be able to visit one of the regions of Westeros and not the capital). I think probably some Embassy of Braavos in another Free City or maybe a Braavosi outpost or town along the Coast near Pentos. It depends on how far north Lemon trees grow in Essos to limit their location. The Rest. Well the number of times doors and Stars are mentioned next to each definitely seems a little high to be purely coincidental. I doubt anything much will come of it but well who knows.
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