Gilbert Green

On 4/18/2024 at 4:16 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

I've just noticed the idea of mummery and pretence is tied in with the idea of 'playing roles' in Quentyn's first chapter:

Back in the Planky Town Quentyn had played the wineseller, but the mummery had chafed at him, so when the Dornishmen changed ships at Lys they had changed roles as well. Aboard the Meadowlark, Cletus Yronwood became the merchant, Quentyn the servant; in Volantis, with Cletus slain, Gerris had assumed the master's role. - The Merchant's Man

And the only other time the word 'role' appears in ADWD is when Barristan is musing on Quentyn's death:

Grief and guilt had been known to drive good men into madness, and Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater had both played roles in their friend's demise.  - The Queen's Hand

I don't completely buy into the 'Quentyn is alive' theory but this careful use of the word 'role' might be significant. Are we being led to assume some 'mummery' on the two friends' part in the events surrounding Quentyn the Crisp?

Barristan all-but accuses Gerris to his face of mummery:  "do you take me for a doting grandfather".

But even putting the Quentyn is Alive theory aside, roles and identity are definitely themes in the story.

Initially, GRRM by naming chapters after characters' true identities.  But now has begun a pattern of naming chapters after roles played:  Mercy, Alayne Stone, Reek, The Merchant's Man, etc.   What with faceless men running around, surely GRRM will eventually use this to deceive the reader.  A chapter will be named after a character, but it won't actually be that character, but someone playing the role of that character.

On 2/21/2024 at 6:24 PM, Aebram said:

I don't recall where I first heard this idea. But when I think about it, the word "syncretic" comes to mind. Wikipedia says that "Syncretism is the practice of combining different beliefs and various schools of thought. Syncretism involves the merging or assimilation of several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, thus asserting an underlying unity and allowing for an inclusive approach to other faiths."

The article also states that:

Of course Wikipedia may not be the most authoritative source ...

Syncretism is a vague word, of which academics are fond, but which I don't find particularly useful.  But I was not objecting to it.  I was responding to the concrete example that you gave in plain English.  It strikes me as extraordinarily unlikely that a missionary would think or talk that way.  And of course, a missionary would not use the word "syncretism" either, because he is a missionary, and not an academic.

Wikipedia cites the example of missionaries who identified "Manitou" with "God".  I would not call that "syncretism" either.  It merely represents the missionary's idea that God is not his local god, but the God of the Whole Universe, who was already present before the missionary arrived.  The missionary is not trying to promote "syncretism", but merely to use a local word for "God".

On 2/17/2024 at 8:30 PM, Aebram said:

Real-life Christian missionaries sometimes did similar things; they would introduce Christian concepts to an indigenous community by telling them things like, "Oh, your goddess Oxun of the River is really Mary, mother of Jesus," etc.

This sounds more like a post-modern academic, projecting his own beliefs and attitudes onto an ancient missionary.

It seems to be very unlikely that an ancient missionary would actually think this way.

There are much better explanations for why once-pagan practices survived in Christian communities.

But perhaps you have an example of a modern missionary in mind.

Yes, I think we will see a zombie homicidal maniac version of "Jon Snow".

But it's a trick.  It won't actually be Jon Snow.  It will be Cregan Karstark, glamored by Mel to look like Jon, and having access to parts of Jon's mind and memory, thanks to having been warged by Jon at the time of its death.

These are just names.   A suffix this basic is not going to have a common derivation or significance across an influx of multiple cultures.  Nor, realistically, will it have a common spelling.  So "ei" and "ey" are basically the same.  You might as well start a thread debating the significance of names beginning with the letter "b".  But I'm sure a thread will be started for that soon.

There seems to be some tendency to spell masculine names "ey" and feminine names "ei".  Hence, we see Andrey but not Andrei.  But that seems not to be universal, as I can think of at least one exception in Barbrey Dustin.  

And of course, the derivation of that is that GRRM started with Barbara, and changed it a bit; just as he changed Edward to Eddard.  He could just as easily made it Barbrei.  Similarly, "Winifred" became "Wynafrei"; "Circe" becomes "Cersei"; "Sally" becomes "Sallei"; "Janey" becomes "Janei"; "Elena" becomes "Elenei".

Missandei is a foreign name from a foreign culture.  It is not going to have anything in common with other names ending in "ei" except maybe that it got transliterated in a certain way.

Janei named after Cersei?  No.  Just no.  That's like saying Gandalf was named after Adolf [Hitler].

Women with the "ei" suffix are promiscuous?  No.  Just no.

The reason he is called "Harry the Heir" is because he is the heir presumptive of Lord Robert Arryn, precisely as Littlefinger laboriously explains to Sansa in the books.

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

On the topic of un-Cat ... GRRM has said that Lady Stoneheart's story is not done by a long shot (I think a comment on her absence from the show). Bearing that in mind, will we ever get a POV from whatever spirit resides in her?

My guess would be no.  But we already have indirect testimony from UnBeric, who asks if he was born on the battlefield, and if Thoros is his mother.  UnBeric, at least, does not think he is Beric.

I can also see the dead appearing in dreams and visions to POV characters, in a way that might provide clues that they are separate beings from whatever evil spirit inhabits their corpse.

Jaime had a vision of he and Brienne being trapped in the Underworld together.  And Brienne was beautiful there.

Brienne had a vision of following a man she loved through a forest.  She calls to him, and he turns.  Then a shadow, seeming to strike from her direction, kills him, much to her horror.  I think this foreshadows the death of Jaime; and gives a clue as to what the perspective might be of a human spirit trapped in a zombie corpse.  Able to observe, perhaps, but not really in control.

3 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

One reason I ask is because I think thus far GRRM has used the POV formula in very straightforward ways. But with wights, resurrections, skin-changing etc. possibly moving to the forefront in the next books, will he start to experiment with the structure, to show us some real horror?

I absolutely think GRRM is going to use the fantasy elements of the story in tricksy ways, including but not limited to tricky use of POVs:

-- FACELESS MEN:  Very tricksy characters, who can appear in the shape of a dead person, convincing characters and readers that such person is still alive.  They can even have POV chapters; since the tradition of naming chapters after the role being played (Alayne, Mercy, The Merchant's Man, etc. etc.),  has already firmly established by GRRM.

- GLAMORS:  self evident.

- WARGING:  Human's can be warged.  And a character can "die in his own POV" while warging another human.  All GRRM has to do to trick us is to conceal this information.  In fact, I have an idea that this may have already happened, and Bowon Marsh and Friends assassinated a warged, glamored Cregan Karstark; only to have the real Jon Snow return to his body hiding in the ice cells.

- ZOMBIES:  I don't think they will get POVs but they can walk and talk; and convince certain POV characters that they are alive for a while.

-- SECOND LIFE:  A person's POV can continue after his body has died. We already saw this with Varamyr.  And what will that second life be?  Another human?  A dragon?

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

Hmm

I reread and agree that Lady S seems most likely to have stayed in the cave while the men took the three out to be hanged. I personally don't think her presence is necessary for Brienne to have been cut down. But they would certainly have dragged Brienne back to Lady S rather than just say 'OK you said Sword, you can go' so Brienne and Lady S have certainly have had some more conversation.

I'm not ruing anything out.  But when your sentence has been passed and you are already facing the hangman, the hangman will not typically cut you down no matter what you shout.  It is not a good time to change your mind about the plea bargain you rejected.  UnCat's orders to the hangman were not conditional, as far as I can see.  Seems to me that Brienne's best hope is for the rope to break, and/or for the proverbial "cavalry" to arrive.  Maybe Edric and a couple of buddies will rush out swinging swords at the last minute.

But, if she won't be cut down by her captors, what is the significance of the word she screamed?  I have ideas about that, but you are probably not going to like them.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

I think its reasonable to hope they cut the others down too although that depends on those soldiers seeing them as a package which they didn't when convicting them. Brienne would certainly have screamed 'Pod too' once she was cut down but that may have been too late.

  Where there is life, there is hope, they say.  Yes, it is reasonable to hope, no matter how dire their situation, if only because of there is a certain story logic to dire cliffhangers. 

In this case, I think GRRM (the evil bastard) is counting on us to hope for their survival, so that he can then play with our  expectations, when a mystery knight and his mystery squire appear at the Vale Tourney in Sansa's POV.  But that's only my guess.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

Its odd that she has become a different creature, yet would still rely at all on Brienne's vow.

GRRM has said in an interview that this kind of wight (the UnBeric kind) is driven by its oaths.  So oaths are the one thing that you would expect it to understand.

On 2/9/2024 at 7:44 PM, Castellan said:

So, given the issue of Lady S not being present and Brienne screaming sword with what appears to be her absolute last breath, do you think she's undead? raised by Beric at Lady S's instrutction? And what do you think she and jaime are up to? I presume its all been argued somewhere, so you can just point me to that if you like

Beric is gone.  She would be either raised by Thoros, maybe at LS's instruction, or raised by Stoneheart herself.

Ah, people will get mad at me.  And it's only my guess, after all.

Yes, I think Brienne is undead.  A fire wight pursuing a monstrous and twisted version of her dying oath and other prior oaths.

Brienne made an oath to take [Renly's] sword and kill Renly's slayer with it.   When she entered Catelyn's service, Catelyn swore to her that she would not keep her from fulfilling that oath.

As she dies, Brienne screams a word that signifies an oath to "take the sword and kill the kingslayer".  This curiously echos her prior oath regarding Renly.  Except it has now been extended to a different Kingslayer, and perhaps, in her damaged zombie mind, to all kingslayers, including Gregor Clegane (reputed slayer of Aegon) and Sansa Stark (reputed slayer of Joffrey).  And of course she will pursue Stannis as well.  In the fever dreams that precede her handing, Jaime and Renly already seem to be becoming confused.

Brienne and Sandor have many curious parallels.  I think both will become their opposites, messing with the readers expectations.  Brienne will take up the Hound helm and fight Gregor, and hunt Sansa to avenge Joffrey (as Sansa half expects Sandor to do).  Sandor will become a True Knight, and become a knight errant embodying the best ideals of knighthood.  And he will be accompanied, I guess, by a shy 12-year old squire.  And he will carry a large sword, which he will refuse to draw against lesser adversaries.  And readers will say, "that's obviously Brienne, accompanied by Pod, refusing to draw Oathkeeper -- remember her story about honor and the Just Maid".  But it will actually be Sandor, accompanied by Edric, Lord of Starfall, and refusing to draw Dawn. And, as ironically foreshadowed by his terror of fire, he will slay a dragon (Can a man be brave when he is afraid?  That is the only time a man can be brave!).  He will draw Dawn for that adversary, at least..  Etc. etc. 

My guess is, that all the curious parallels between Brienne and Sandor, and between Podrick and Edric, are part of this curious plot to mislead Sansa and the reader.

But some of the parallels between Dunk and Egg, on the one hand, and Sandor and Edric on the other, will be thematic.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

GRRM may hold us in suspense for awhile before revealing whether Pod survived or what condition he is in.

That much is for sure.  What is it already?  Eighteen years?

15 hours ago, Seams said:

I think there is a pattern of "the boy who lived." 

Even in the Potterverse, boys don't necessarily live merely because they are boys.  Cedric Diggory died just to prove how evil Voldemort was; to show that his murderous acts can affect people we know and like.

Cat is gone.  UnCat is not Cat.  It is an undead monster, making use of a few aspects of Cat's mind and memories.  Some fans don't accept this.  They think that if someone gives this Demon-Haunted Corpse  a nice talk, this Demon-Haunted Corpse will somehow rediscover its lost humanity.  So they think that, when UnCat ordered hanged an innocent 12-year old boy that we know and like, she did not really mean it, deep down in her heart of hearts. 

My guess is, they are wrong.  Cat would not approve of UnCat's actions, to be sure.  But Cat, wherever her spirit dwells, is not in charge of this demon corpse.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

We see it in Ser Dontos (spared at the request of Ser Barristan after the Defiance of Duskendale), ...

Ser Dontos is dead.  He did not exactly die of old age either.  Ser Barristan's mercy shows that Ser Barristan is merciful.  It does not tell us anything about Dontos; nor about Littlefinger.

16 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Pod may be one of these survivors already: he was spared after the ham theft in Tywin's wagon train. 

So basically, even the murderous Lord Tywin has more mercy in his heart than Mother Merciless.  That's the message I'm getting from this parallel.

11 hours ago, Castellan said:

Pimples and styes: I wasn't commenting on any similarity to Edric just pointing out that Pod is unprepossessing and easily dismissed by other characters in the books but has the makings of a fighter. He has a pimple when seen through Sansa'a eyes, I forget when the stye comes in, maybe when Brienne meets him.

Yes it might make sense for Jaime and Brienne to go somewhere else rather than into the hands of Lady S. But I think Brienne will want to save Pod, she couldn't stand to see him hang - that was how she rationalised her decision to choose 'sword'.

Yes the sty was when Brienne meets him.

Pod's hanging was long ago already.  Either Pod is dead by now, or he was cut down alive and has already escaped from Stoneheart.  Because Mother Merciless has no mercy.

There was never any hostage situation.  Stoneheart sought to bind Brienne by an oath, and not by any hostages.  Hostages would be entirely contrary to Stoneheart's thinking.  As far as she is concerned, Pod is an enemy soldier, and had she given any thought at all to his relationship with Brienne, she might have asked Brienne to prove her loyalty by killing Pod herself.  Instead, she demands that Brienne prove her loyalty by slaying Jaime.

Stoneheart was not even present when Brienne screamed sword.  You have to fill in alot of blanks, and in a manner inconsistent with Stoneheart's logic and character, to imagine a hostage arrangement involving Pod between Brienne and Stoneheart.

19 hours ago, Castellan said:

He has a sty and a pimple (both temporary phenomena, I agree!) is scrawny with nondescript hair and suffers from social terror that makes him stammer and hardly able to put a whole sentence together. Like Sam, and Brienne, he is a character who is dismissed by many around him but nevertheless, guess what, gets through by sheer persistence or whatever talents they do have. He is type that GRRM seems quite keen on.

I can see why there is a temptation to go from Egg was a secet targ and ended up King therefore Pod should echo this pattern but  I really don't want to think he will turn out to have some fantastic secret heritage. It would kind of spoil the whole point of his character and persistence. Its possible he'd end up head of house Payne because of the war and upheaval of the times, that's about as far as I want to speculate. Interesting events have got to come out of the return of Jaime and Brienne to the BWB camp and he'll be involved in those I assume as Brienne's squire. And I think that if the last book is ever written, at the end the major characters will mostly be dead and already turning into legend and there may be only a few of the youngest characters left to remember them, and Pod could be one of those.

Yes, sty and pimple both temporary ... and I don't recall that he ever had both at the same time.

Scrawny?  Sure.  But I don't expect Edric to be getting much fatter either, with the life he is leading.

Nondescript hair?  Okay.  Edric's long fair hair is a bit more remarkable to be sure.  But did you catch where Gendry tells Edric that if his hair bothers him, he should cut it off?  That's foreshadowing, I guess.  When we next see Edric, he may no longer be defined by longish fair hair.

Stammers?  Edric is also shy and halting.  I don't recall Edric ever actually stammering.  But who knows what he would do in the presence of a beauty like Alayne Stone.  Given the trouble GRRM has already gone to to set up Podrick/Edric parallels, I half expect him to start stammering.

I don't assume Brienne is safe either.

If Edric becomes a mystery squire to a mystery knight, he will already parallel Egg to some extent.  He may not be a secret prince, but he would still be a secret lord.

Yes, I do think GRRM is more than capable of "meek shall inherit" themes.  But the story has a 1000 characters, and everyone can't be special.  One or two frogs may turn into princes, but the rest will live and die as frogs.  Pod might end up being one of them.

Jaime and Brienne do not have to return to the BWB camp.  And I for one don't expect them to.   Anyway, it seems our mystery lad Edric has already left the BWB.

6 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

Well we know now that at least Hodor's name was very well thought-out from the beginning and not drawn from Lassie. I won't go into details as this is a book-only forum. But there's precedent.

Yes, but nobody could have guessed, and nobody did guess, the meaning of "Hodor".  So I rate the success rate of this kind of speculation as very low.

Also "Hodor" is not his name.  His actual name is "Walder", and that has no special significance.  His mom probably named him after her favorite brother or favorite uncle or something, as is normal.  But "Hodor", the mysterious word that Walder says, and the source of his nickname, was set up as a mystery from the very start.

I know y'all are just having fun and brainstorming.  Will you call me a spoilsport if I opine that these semantic associations have maybe a one in a million chance of matching anything GRRM actually intends?  For all we know he was watching LASSIE COME HOME, and imagined a young Roddy McDowall, then changed Roderick to Podrick.  And no, I don't think this foreshadows him bonding with Nymeria.

I think the significance, if any, of Pod's sty is that it is superficial and temporary.  It does not define who he is.  It is just something he happens to have at a particular moment in time.

So if a mystery knight with a mystery squire shows up at the Vale tourney, and that squire happens to have a sty, it probably isn't Pod.

On 2/1/2024 at 2:09 PM, SeanF said:

From the Shield Islands to Meereen was 80 days, albeit that was a fleet, rather than one ship. 

You are going by the so-called "most precise ASOIAF timeline".  Which is okay, but it helps to remember that it is not a canon source.  It's conclusions can be questioned sometimes.

Also, those 80 days assume Victarion left the same day he decided to go.  If he spent a week gathering the Iron Fleet, or instance, it would be 73 days.

Here are some other conclusions you can draw, using the "most precise ASOIAF timeline" as a framework.

- It took only 3 mos, 7 days (99 days)  for news of news of Dany's arrival in Qarth to reach Pentos AND for Barristan to THEN travel to Quarth.  If the news traveled by sea, then a one-way trip is just a little over a month and a half; but you can give Barristan more time, maybe, by postulating some system of sending news from Qarth by carrier bird.

- It took 2 months and 5 days (from 9/9 to 11/16) for the Quarteen Warlocks to travel from Quarth to the Iron Islands.  And of course the travel time is even less if Euron stops into slavers bay to check out this Dragon Queen he is so interested in, before transporting his captured Warlocks through the smoking sea.

- The timeline author allows 25 days elapse (1/4 through 1/29) between Stannis' decision to go to the Wall, and his arrival at Castle Black.  Allowing a week for the overland journey and a few days to prepare, then the journey from Dragonstone to the Wall might have taken two weeks.  The author of the timeline seems a big believer in set schedules for sailing ships, because he remarks "let's assume Mel's magic for Stannis' ships was really really good."

10 hours ago, Potsk said:

That he won't be alive? Then Brienne luring Jaime to Stoneheart would be pointless.

Well then, maybe Brienne isn't luring Jaime to Stoneheart.

The choice was sword or noose.  There was no third "rope" option signifying "tie up the kingslayer and bring him to me."  i know that's a collective fan headcanon, but it isn't actually established or foreshadowed by the text.

The point of Brienne's actions might be to keep an oath, regardless of why she made the oath.  If she needs another motive than that, all this "oathkeeper" foreshadowing is nonsense.

6 hours ago, Evolett said:

The parallels between Pod and Edric are quite striking. In whatever way, we're meant to see a connection between Payne and Dayne but I'm not sure Podrick is a red herring. It could also be the other way round. Edric has already served a resurrected man, a "true knight"  who continued his set mission while also caring for the smallfolk. Thus Podrick's ultimate role could be similar - to serve a key player who will be resurrected in the future - Jon Snow, or someone else?

Regardless of which of them is the red herring, I think GRRM's plan is to present us with a mystery knight and his mystery squire, and keep us readers guessing.

I don't think there is any deep symbolic significance to most of these parallels.  I think GRRM is engaged in the entirely practical game of misdirecting his readers for the purpose of ultimately surprising them.

GRRM will lead us down he garden path.  And then mystery squire will make some vaguely-worded reference to his past, and then the reader will imagine his suspicions have been confirmed. 

Pod has already served a character who was hanged and "survived".  Edric and Podric already have this parallel.   

The mystery knight will not be Jon Snow, I think.  Taller.  Roughly the size of Brienne, or Lem, or Sandor.  And Sandor too has "died" and been reborn. 

Pod was being hanged last time we saw him.  He might not be alive.  Don't get too mad at me for pointing this out.

Podrick Payne's role in the story is red herring.  He is set up to be confused with Edric Dayne.  And maybe with Shadrick.

Both will have many parallels to confuse the reader.  But Edric will ultimately be the more important character because of his connection with the sword Dawn.  Podrick has even studied Dornish helaldry as (I suppose) has Edric.  Each has an elder relative known for wielding a greatsword.   Each has rescue his former Lord from a fiery river battle.  Each is shy.  Each is associated with purple colors. 

Edric, like Egg with Dunk, will serve as squire to a True Knight.  Podrick has already (in a sense) done so.

On 1/31/2024 at 7:16 PM, Alester Florent said:

The map in The Lands of Ice and Fire has no scale, but using the Wall as a guide, it's at a scale of approximately 1mm/10 miles. Using that scale, it is, as the crow flies, approximately 4,000 miles from the Iron Islands to Meereen, and approximately 7,700 miles from the Iron Islands to Meereen.

Euron can't sail as the crow flies, because Westeros (and Valyria) are in the way. So his quickest route (through the Smoking Sea) is more like 6,000 miles.

Funny.  I plotted and measured the "The Known World" map using the Wall as a legend, from Pyke to the western tip of the Westerlands, then to the Western tip of the Reach, then the the Eastmost isle off the Arbor, then straight across and through the Smoking Sea, then up to the tip of the Isle of Cedars, and then on to Meereen.

I got about 4,730.  Or roughly 2 weeks at roughly 12 knots.  Pretty much exactly what I get on the ADWD maps.

I think you must be doing something wrong. 

6 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

My copy of ADwD has only three maps: Beyond the Wall, the Free Cities, and Valyria. Maybe we have different editions

You can download all 5 maps from Random House.

A Dance with Dragons Maps | Random House Group (randomhousebooks.com)

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

From the Shield Islands to Meereen was 80 days, albeit that was a fleet, rather than one ship.  Victarion did put in at ports and islands, even if there were times he crossed open sea.

Victarion's chapters are filled with mentions of the adverse weather conditions he faced.

Sailing ships don't have set travel times.  That's not how sailing works.  You can travel hundreds of miles in a day under ideal conditions, or you can sit becalmed for weeks.

And of course, when transporting alot of men, you need to restock more often, especially if you get delayed.

But if you are only transporting a handful of men (oneself and a few mutes, say), then a few weeks of provisions is hardly a big deal.  And if you don't get delayed you don't need to resupply.  It is not like you are going to run out of petrol.

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Vikings however had a well-devekoped system of open ocean navigation. And considering Ironborn are pseudo-Vikings, I don't see why they should be limited to coastal navigation.

https://www.academia.edu/14821349/Viking_Age_Navigational_Tools_for_Oceanic_Exploration 

Obviously they would be stuck on the Iron Islands forever, if they were entirely limited to coastal navigation.  The Summer Islanders even more so.

But when Euron leads the Ironborn fleet far out into the Sunset Sea, and then swoops back to attack the Shield Islands from the West, the text suggests this tactic is both unusual and daring.  Cersei thinks that Willas just forgot to man his watchtowers and failed to notice 1000 ships sailing by, but Victarion confirms that Euron indeed did this.

Just now, SeanF said:

Yes, but ships in medieval times hugged the coastline and dropped anchor at night. 

Euron does not follow that rule.  Per text.  Sorry.

21 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That approach is one I hate in general terms; the "let's ignore physics" thing is not unique to this setting, let alone this theory. The mindset behind it is generally pretty consistent though.

It's an aesthetic thing.  How much magic is too much magic?  I can't help you there.

I never said "let's violate physics".  It wasn't me who gave GRRM permission to have Drogo melt gold in a cooking fire.  And not even with magic as an explanation.

Anyhow you keep talking about violating physics.  What rule of physics do you claim has been violated?  Do maps with inconsistent or inaccurate scales violate physics? 

Do gods who give red winds in exchange for human sacrifice violate physics?  I guess.  But it seems to be a part of the story.  Both Mel and Moqorro have done it, and Euron is hinted to also have the power.