Gilbert Green

Why not? Who can force her to say "I do"? She can say "I don't". Or can threaten to say "I don't" in which case the ceremony will not even be held, because Tywin will want to avoid the embarassment. There is this entire ceremony designed to ensure that the parties consent. When exactly did Tywin hold a crossbow to her head? Or was Cersei merely worried that Tywin could cut her allowance in half?

I am no longer young. I have been hearing the phrase "madonna/whore complex" for decades. My mind always phases out when I hear it. It just not seem to me to be a meaningful or useful concept. But it sure sounds sophisticated, doesn't it?

Was she? I thought she and Tywin both agreed that she would marry for wealth and power. Rhaegar was first choice, and when that did not work out, Robert the second choice. The idea that Tywin's children, and particularly Tyrion and Cersei, live in mortal fear of Tywin is in my mind a fan fantasy designed to justify bad behavior. Yes, Tywin is murderous, but has demonstrated no particular tendency to be murderous towards his own children. He was displeased when Jaime joined the Kingsguard, but Jaime is still alive and kicking.

How exactly was he "coerced"? Fans build fantasies around this, but the books provide no actual evidence. Shae once asked him, "What's he going to do, spank you?" So he hit her. Draw your own conclusions, but I think he does not have an answer. Not a good one anyway. And that is why he hit her. The elephant in the room is that Tyrion wants his father's favor and his father's gold. And that is why he is not willing to stand up to his father on behalf of the woman in his life.

The entire premise of this conversation is Tyrion's bottomless abyss of self-pity, according to which others owe him everything, and he owes them nothing. But somehow it's okay when you say it but not when I say it. I mean, I agree with you. Tyrion wants a goddess from heaven who will come down and offer him absolute unconditional love and ask nothing in return. Especially not a share of his precious gold. So when he suspects his wife may have a few selfish needs of her own, he turns on her and gang rapes her. You say she was paid? When did that happen? Seems more likely the story was that Jaime paid her pimp for the one night. Virgin prostitutes don't tend to be free agents. Or are you talking about the time that Tyrion and the soldiers threw money at her while gang-raping her? The marriage was Tyrion's idea. Tyrion knows this. Or does he think that Jaime and the pimp were performing Jedi mind tricks on him from the bushes. Who was it got the Septon drunk enough to marry them? I think this was Tyrion and Tyrion knows perfectly well that this was Tyrion. He does not think it was a conspiracy of Jaime and the pimp. You keep saying "he thought she was a prostitute". Good grief. He thought she was a VIRGIN prostitute, who married her first and only customer. That's about as monogamous as you can possibly get. Even if she had slept with another man before she married him, that would hardly be grounds for annulment. But Tyrion was Tysha's first and only, and that is somehow not good enough? He knew he had saved her from bandits. What possible difference does it make if he also saved her from a pimp? Yes, his love for her was conditional on her loving him unconditionally. And that's obviously a highly unequal arrangement. But somehow it's okay when you say it but not when I say it.

Certainly no love on his end. If you meant that he did not love her, then that is obviously true, based on what he did to her. And the fact remains that she never brokeher vows, and Jaime never claimed she broker her vows. Tyrion broke his vows. As for him thinking that she married him for his gold, there is obviously an issue there. Women whose destiny is to bear children do take a man's means into account, and that does not make them evil, especially as he was the one who proposed. And the elephant in the room is that Jaime had already taken Kingsguard vows, meaning that Tyrion hoped for Casterly Rock if he did not displease his father. So in the end, alot of gold was at stake. The only trick Jaime claimed to have played was procuring a virgin for him to use. Marrying her after he used her was his own idea. But of course his vows meant nothing, as we have seen. A virgin? Yes, he knew she was a virgin. Was there some other word you had in mind? But you're not calling her names? I have not the slightest idea what your point is. They were about the same age. She kept her vows. He broke his. For abandoning his wife. For not standing up to his father. For participating in her gang rape. "Scam marriage" you call it. It was certainly a scam on Tyrion's end. Who cares how much Tyrion thinks Jaime paid some human-trafficking pimp. That is not the issue. The issue is that Tyrion did not love Tysha. He merely loved the idea that Tysha loved him. And the suggestion that his Casterly Rock gold might be a factor in her acceptance of his marriage proposal sent him into a Leprechaun rage. NOT ME GOLD. So he gang raped her.

What was fake about the marriage? Jaime never claimed it was part of the plan. It was Tyrion's idea. She agreed. And they both said their vows. She never broke her vows, and Jaime never claimed she ever did. Only one person broke his vows and that was Tyrion. Calling her a "prostitute" is just calling her names; which is especially funny since she was a child prostitute, still a virgin, procured from a human-trafficking pimp. And in the end even that was not true, but so what if it was? Why would he seek her out? Maybe to honor the vows he made to her? Failing that, maybe to do something else to make it up to her for the horrors his family inflicted on her? Maybe check to make sure those two weeks of "fake" marriage had not gotten her pregnant.

He is 26 when he tells the story to Bronn, though. And he has not lifted a finger to look for her for the last 13 years. Because, as he sees it, there is nothing in it for him. It never occurs to him that he owes HER anything.

Time for part I, I guess. TYRION: A RETROSPECTIVE PART I: TYRION SUCKS [at Winterfell] TYRION: Nice wolf! GHOST: Grrr. You suck, Tyrion! TYRION: Shy, isn't he! GHOST: Grrr. I mean it! JON: Sit, Ghost! You can touch him now, Tyrion. GHOST: Great. Thanks a lot, BUDDY. JON: If I wasn't here, he would tear your throat out. GHOST: Yup! TYRION: Hey Jon, aren't you a bastard, just like me. JON: Um, yeah. TYRION: Great! I can give you lessons in envy, self-pity and resentment. After one short lesson, you will be a total prick to everyone at the Night Watch; After two lessons you will want to kill your father, rape your sister, and strangle prostitutes. JON: Hey, wait a minute! You're not a bastard. You are true born! TYRION: You do not understand the POWER of self-pity. [at breakfast] TYRION: MMMM! Bacon burnt black! Tastes like in my dreams where I chow down on my family after roasting them with my fiery breath. [Crunch, Chomp] TOMMEN: Mommy, I don't WANT Bran to die. CERSEI: None of us do, Sweetie. TYRION: Well, [crunch, chomp] you may get your wish? CERSEI: Eh? TYRION: The maester says he's going to live. TOMMEN: Yippee! TYRION: The maester says he might even wake up ... JAMIE: ....! TYRION: ... and start talking ... CERSEI: ....! TYRION: ... unless of course he develops some unforeseen fatal complication. CERSEI & JAMIE: hmmm! SUMMER: THANKS A LOT TYRION! YOU SUCK! CERSEI: That infernal howling again! Those wolves are NOT coming South with us. TYRION: Yeah, well, I'm going NORTH. I want to see the Wall! JAMIE: Heheh! Planning to take the Black, little bro? TYRION: Me celibate? No way! WHORES! WHORES! WHORES! Hee hee. WHORES! FANS: OMG! Tyrion is so witty and clever! TOMMEN: Mommy, what are whores? CERSEI: You suck, Tyrion! TYRION: I hope that boy wakes up. Hee hee. JAIME: Hey, whose side are you on! TYRION: You know how much I LOVE my family. [crunch, chomp] FANS: Tyrion rocks! Whores. Hee hee. TYRION: Hey Benjen, I want to go North with you & Jon. BENJEN: Are you sure? I don't think you will like the weather. TYRION: You hate me because I'm a Lannister. I'll get you for this! [later, on the North road] TYRION: Brrrr, it's cold BENJEN: Here, you can have my coat. TYRION: Great! A coat. Thanks. BENJEN: You're welcome. [shiver] TYRION: HAHA! REVENGE IS SWEET! TYRION: Okay, Jon, you have mastered Lesson One. Time to begin Lesson Two. GHOST: GRRRR! NO! ENOUGH! STOP! CHOMP! JON: Down, Ghost! TYRION: Gosh! Why did he attack me? [at the Wall] [Sniffing the Stew] JON: Mmmm! It has MUTTON! TYRION: Yuck! It has VEGETABLES! [eating crabs] TYRION: [Acts like a giant prick] AEMON: A giant has come to piss on us, here at the edge of the world. TYRION: I have been called many things, but never a giant. AEMON: I think it is true, nonetheless. TYRION (blushing): You are too kind. AEMON (aside): I wasn't being kind. I was thinking of kind that eats children. GHOST (aside): Yeah! Nobody understands me either. [top of the wall] TYRION: If I touch Ghost, will he chew my hand off? GHOST: Oh Jon? Can I? Please? JON: Not with me here. GHOST: Damn! TYRION: Jon, you're my bestest buddy. I loves ya like a bro. JON: I feel the same, Tyrion. You're like family. TYRION: Speaking of family, any word of your Uncle Benjen? JON: No. If he doesn't return, I'll go out and find him. TYRION: But who will go after you, if you don't return? JON: Why, my bestest buddy, of course. TYRION: Er ... ! [back at Winterfell] ROBB: Any member of the Night Watch is welcome here, but you suck. TYRION: No fair! I came to be nice to Bran. I drew a picture of a saddle for him ROBB: Hmm. Perhaps I misjudged you. SUMMER: NO! GRRR! He REALLY DOES suck! GREY WIND: GRRR! I agree! He REALLY sucks! SHAGGYDOG: GRRR! LETS KILL HIM. TYRION: ARRGH! Call them OFF! STARK BOYS: Summer! Grey! Shaggy! HEEL!!! THEON: The wolves think you suck, Tyrion. ROBB: Wow! They sure do. [at the crossroads] INNKEEPER: Sorry, we're full up. TYRION: Throw someone out. I am a LANNISTER and I want a room. My traveling companions, including Yoren who, though elderly, is not my equal in rank, can sleep in the stables. GUESTS: Wow! What a prick! CATELYN: Tyrion is an evil baby killer! Arrest him, guests. GUESTS: Sounds plausible. [Guests seize Tyrion] TYRION: Hey! You are all just PREJUDICED! . [on the east road] BRONN: The Dothraki prefer horsemeat to pork. TYRION: I'm no Dothraki. I my dreams, I always eat the knight first. (later) TYRION: Lady Stark, you need every sword. Arm me and my servant Jyck, or we will all be raped and murdered by Evil Hicks. CATELYN: Oh, all right. Ser Rodrik, arm the prisoners. JYCK: Here come the Evil Hicks, m'lord! I shall fight bravely. (Jyck fights bravely, while Tyrion hides behind a rock). JYCK: AARRGH! [dies] TYRION: Ha ha! Idiot! [At the Aerie] SWEETROBIN: Mommy, Tyrion sucks. Can we throw him out the high window? LYSA: Yes, dear. But first he must have trial by combat. VARDIS: Hi. I'm Sir Vardis. I represent truth, honor, justice, chivalry, and Lord Sweetrobin. BRONN: Hi. I'm Bronn. I represent selfishness, evil, killing babies for money, and Lord Tyrion. LYSA: Let the Trial by Combat begin. [clash, clang] BRONN: Your powers are weak, old man. [clash, clang] VARDIS: You cannot win. If you strike me down, I shall become.... OOH! OUCH! ARGHH! BRONN: [chop, splish, hack] VARDIS: [thud!] FANS: HOORAY! SWEETROBIN: Can we throw him out the window now, Mommy? LYSA: No dear, the gods have judged him innocent. SWEETROBIN: But MOM! He SUCKS! FANS: We hate you, Sweetrobin!

Frog wasn't in the show. So they had to replace him with Bran.

Good grief. Now he's threatening to report us to the United Nations for hate crimes. And if anyone dares point out that the word "rape" has had multiple definitions over the years, and decades, and jurisdictions, that counts as "excusing rape", in his book. Even if you are not excusing the bad behavior that you don't necessarily call rape.

Who is the bully? You are just angry because I refuse to bow to your authority. Call it "rape" if you want to. I never said you could not. I can certainly see what people are getting at when they call it rape. I'm not the language bully. That's you, not me. I merely expressed the opinions that (1) language is arbitrary ; (2) morality is universal; and (3) what Tyrion did was wrong in any language, no matter what you call it. Wow, dude. You are vicious. Why would you say such a thing? I never said it was not rape. I said it depends on the definition of "rape' used. Which is practically a truism. To me, it lies somewhere along the continuum between a violent rape (which is what some people have traditionally meant by the word "rape") and visiting a prostitute (which, in my opinion, you also should not do, and for related reasons). Would it qualify as "rape" in your jurisdiction? Or some lesser crime? Dunno. Check your local statutes. In any event, don't emulate Tyrion. What he did was evil. When people call Tyrion's actions "rape" because the girl did not "consent", I understand what they mean, and more or less agree. They are calling it out as wrong, and saying why it is wrong as well. But I also see that they are approaching the issue from a fairly narrow linguistic and conceptual paradigm. Part of the problem is that men are not mystical mind readers with the magical power to know whether a woman's "consent" is "valid" by some definition. My own solution to this is the conclusion that sometimes a man has the moral duty to hold back even when a woman appears to be consenting and perhaps even actually is consenting. Some are of the opinion that if a women does not consent, then hands off; but if she does consent you should definitely go for it. I agree with the former, but not the latter. I have no desire to report you. You are projecting. You're the one calling me a rapist. Why don't you go hit that report button.

You sound hostile. Please tell me what you imagine I have said that you disagree with me about. I did read your paragraphs. Nice paragraphs. I would have said them differently, but that's fine.

He has been rather lax about it, considering Tyrion is 27.

They are all parts of a larger whole. Which we cannot see.

For example, Tyrion should not have had sex with the slave girl. It was wrong. Doesn't matter what you call it.

I already supplied such an example. One slave offers another slave to share his whiskey, and both slaves consent to share the whiskey.

I remember you. You're the guy who thinks we don't have to understand the words we use as long as we obediently bow to your authority. A more reasonable position would be that sex slaves can and do consent, depending on how you define consent. Because language is flexible and you are not the Word Police. Nonetheless that there are maybe some things one should not do to slaves, depending on circumstances, whether they "consent" or not. Because semantics do not dictate morality. I see. So defining things is okay, but only when you do it. So when two slaves share a pint of whiskey, each is guilty of deliberately poisoning the other, because neither is capable of consenting to drink the whiskey. You just supplied one. It is EXACTLY about the underlying realities. It is not about what you choose to CALL the underlying realities. What if I were a Frenchman, and preferred to call it, not "rape", but "le viol"? Would you scream in outrage? What if the Powers that Be, who are always redefining words, decide to redefine rape next year or next century. Will what Tyrion did still be wrong? In my opinion, yes.

- He is hunting Sansa; and he "knows" or at least suspects, that Sansa is his target. - He is willing to join forces with a larger warrior for a share of the spoils. - He is small enough to be mistaken for a 12 year old boy, in the dark or from a distance. So we should keep a sharp lookout for big mystery knights and their small mystery companions and not assume too quickly that we know who they are. Is the big knight Sandor? or Brienne? Or Lem? Or someone else? Is the small companion Podrick? Or Shadrick? Or Edric? Or someone else?

I agree that Tyrion behaves badly. But this is because of the underlying realities surrounding his actions, and the harms and foreseeable harms therefrom. It is not because of semantics. Define "consent" however you like. It won't change underlying realities. Meanwhile, "yes" seems a poor safeguard when dealing with prostitutes and sex slaves. The end customer is the last person to be in a position to know if "yes" really means "yes" or not. As often or not, it is what her pimp (or master) told her to say. And who knows what coercion the pimp used?

Well, he asked Tyrion who did it. And Tyrion's response was to be a smart ass: (paraphrase from memory): "Nobody poisoned him -- he choked on his pigeon pie." Which Tyrion does not believe, and probably did not expect Tywin to believe either. Seems any stick is good enough to beat Tywin with, because he's bad for other reasons. But the criticisms here make no sense. How does anyone know he's not interested? It's not like we have access to his thoughts while Tyrion is not busy being a smart-ass to him.

He's been fantasizing about murdering his entire family since Book 1. You can say they deserve it, but that does not extend to Myrcella. Yes, he has become even more murderous since Daddy took away his toys. But if you can justify his plot involving Myrcella, you can justify just about anything Sounds like a powerful motive to me. Tyrion does not think he is safe. He thinks he is playing the game of thrones. That you either win or die. And as for his precise thoughts, Tywin does not know them because he is not a mind reader. Seems you can't lose this argument. Any evidence against Tyrion is proof - not merely that he is innocent -- but that Tywin knows he is innocent. And, of course, it there is no evidence against Tyrion, that leads to the same conclusion. But maybe Tyrion is not quite the genius you take him for. What was his clever plan when he poured out the wine. Was being noticed part of his clever plan? Or was he hoping no-one would notice? Guilty people make mistakes under stress as well. How does Tywin know the difference without being a mind-reader? What difference does it make? They are both psychos. If he might have plotted Cersei's death, he might have plotted Joffrey's death just as easily. Both might plausibly try to have him killed if he does not strike first. Tywin is not a mind reader.

None of this makes any sense to me. Tyrion was never going to kill Joffrey?? Why the hell not?? Does Tyrion only kill nice people but never evil people?? He was plotting the death of Myrcella. When Illyrio pointed this out, Tyrion, in his own thoughts, admitted he was knowingly doing this. Tyrion thinks Joffrey would make a worse King than Aerys. Is he a fan of mad murderous kings? The only reason he had not made an attempt on his life yet is that there were still a few years to go before he achieved power. Tyrion was caught pouring out the poison cup to cover up the evidence. To cover up for whom? Sansa? I would not blame him if he did, mind you, but if his defense is justification, he cannot claim innocence on any other ground. Pouring out the cup to protect the murderer makes him an accessory after the fact, or makes him look a hell of a lot like one. Tyrion stole poisons from Pycelle. If these were not for Joffrey, they can hardly have been for anyone any worse than Joffrey. Cersei may be crazy for alot of reasons but not for this. The reason she thought Tyrion guilty is because he looked damned guilty. Of course Tywin thought Tyrion at least probably guilty. What was the proof of his innocence? His denials? Tywin was probably thinking if that someone else did not take out Joffrey he was going to have to do it himself. He was probably secretly grateful to Tyrion for doing it for him. If you want to blame Tywin, blame him for that.

This is absolute nonsense. Everyone believed that Tyrion was guilty. Because Tyrion framed himself. He would indeed have eventually killed Joffrey. But someone else beat him to it. Tywin probably thought Tyrion guilty but was prepared to let him live anyway simply because Tyrion was a Lannister and Joffrey a psycho. If you want to blame him for something, blame him for that.

Count me out. Tyrion did not murder his father to make the world a better place. And, in fact, he did not make the world a better place. It is just one more murder, motivated by hate, greed, envy and the lust for power. The killing of Tywin was not a justifiable killing. It was simply murder. That fact that Tywin may "deserve to die" for reasons unrelated to Tyrion's murder of him, is beside the point.