The Dragon Demands

Well the question is which do we consider more cumbersome; "Succession Conflict following Dalton Greyjoy's Death" or "Iron Islands Succession Conflict of 131 AC"?

Well we've got two options, not just for these but in general: "Iron Islands / Vale Succession War of 131AC" Iron Islands/Vale Succession War after the death of Dalton Greyjoy/Jeyne Arryn" (and should we go with "Vale" or "Arryn"? (Greyjoy vs Iron Islands)

Well I don't know maybe Elio can come up with a better name.

Well how's about "struggle for power in the Iron Islands on the death of Dalton Greyjoy"?

How about "Iron Islands civil war of 133-134"? There's been...a few, struggles for power in the isles

The "struggle for power" after Dalton Greyjoy's death needs a more specific name https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Struggle_for_power

@Ran POTSK and I were confused about how to handle articles and template for in-development projects which haven't been greenlit yet. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Template_talk:ASOIAF This wasn't an issue before, because up until 2021 they only told us about projects that were actually greenlit, like the Long Night prequel. But now we've got reasonably confirmed pitches for "Nymeria & the 10,000 Ships of the Rhoynar", "The 9 Voyages of Corlys Velaryon", etc. What should policy be on confirmed pitches that don't even have pilots lined up for filming?

I realized that there were actually three "Westerling" characters in the events surrounding the Dance of the Dragons: Johanna, but also her father Lord Roland Westerling, and Harrold Westerling of the Kingsguard (of unclear relation to the main branch). Also because Season 1 of House of the Dragon seems to be emphasizing Harrold a bit more. So I added the Westerlings to the Dance/Lannister template: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Template:Lannister_tree_Dance This led to some complications, however, as Jason Lannister had bastard daughters by an unknown woman. Because there's a mate for Jason on both left and right, but Johanna's Westerling tree needs to go "up". This is what I did: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=Template:Lannister_tree_Dance&oldid=265498 Reversing Tyland and Jason left to right, but leaving a note that Tyland is older. But I fear this is confusing. Given that Jason's bastard daughters are unnamed, not to mention their mother, an alternative and more elegant solution would to simply leave one footnote "Jason had unnamed bastard daughters by an unknown woman"....then put JOHANNA and the Westerling branch left of the Lannister branch, with Jason restored to the left. Which is better? Because the second option means leaving out the bastards except as a footnote, but it's a lot neater.

Intriguing...there's unlikely to ever be a Persian translation...officially anyway: turns out that Iran isn't a signatory to the Berne Convention for copyright. So everyone in Iran just downloads fan-translations into Persian for FREE. https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2017/07/why-iranians-love-game-of-thrones.html

Thanks! Let's see...turns out there's also translations in Irish Gaelic, Mongolian, and Sinhalese (Sri Lankan). ....But the chart on his site doesn't add up. If Azerbaijani will be the 47th language.... He lists 6 x 8 = 48 - 1 = 47 listed in a grid there, not including Azerbaijani. He lists 3 alternate covers for English by country spelling, we should probably consider that one language, so 47 - 2 = 45. Issue is that there are alternate covers for European versus Latin American Portugese and Spanish, and Simplified Versus Traditional Chinese. There SHOULD be 46 maximum, to include Azerbaijani. ....I think the two versions of Chinese and Portugese are indeed different "translations" as they have different translators listed, while Spanish is like British vs American English (it doesn't list two different translators). So let's subtract one from 45, we get...44 that I'm aware of. Well, 45 including Azerbaijani. So we're still short by 2. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Translations https://www.agameofthronesbooks.com/my-book-collection/ I...cross-referenced with the wikipedia "List of Harry Potter Translations" to see if there are any major world languages we're missing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_in_translation Major as in a national language like "Hindi" and not a prestige language or local language like Latin, Gaelic, Basque, Occitan, etc - anyone who speaks Latin or Occitan probably also knows one of the other languages. I mean in terms of "market penetration". There are essentially four zones that still lack translations - 3 if you discount Africa, as Harry Potter doesn't have that either: Languages of the Indian subcontinent: Hindi, Bengali, Marathi, Gujarati, Nepali, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu, etc. (though there is a Sinhalese translation in Sri Lanka) Languages of South-east Asia: Indonesian & Malay (dialect continuum, though Harry Potter has translations in both), Khmer (Cambodian), Filipino (there are Thai and Vietnamese translations, and English is widely known in the Philippines) Languages of Central Asia: Persian/Farsi (lumping this in with Central Asia instead of Middle East), Pashto, Kazakh, etc. A few leftovers, which may have been translated since 2017: Afrikaans (English is well-known in South Africa, and how similar is that to Dutch? Harry Potter does have an Afrikaans translation) Armenian (an independent branch of Indo-European altogether) Bosnian (Harry Potter has a Serbian and Bosnian translation. However, I asked on my YouTube channel, and a girl from Serbia pointed out that "Serbo-Croatian" / "South Slavic" is more of a dialect continuum across former Yugoslavia, more or less mutually intelligible dialects (much in the same way that Slovak speakers can pretty much understand Czech speakers). And of these, GRRM himself admitted in 2017 that "Hindi is probably the biggest language that A Song of Ice & Fire has not yet appeared in". Which languages has "The World of Ice & Fire" been translated into so far? Is there a way Elio & Linda could just shoot GRRM's publisher an e-mail to ask for a listing of all Translations?

The Translations article on the books translated into non-English languages hasn't been updated in almost a decade: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Translations The Wikipedia page it's based on was deleted a few years ago. So I used the Internet Archive to get the most recently saved version, from April 2016, then copy-pasted the updated entries. This was difficult because the archived page doesn't save the wiki code, so I couldn't just copy-paste the whole thing but had to spend over an hour adding it in one at a time. It doesn't contain any info on The World of Ice & Fire, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, or Fire & Blood. I updated it as best I could quickly slapping what info I could find in there. Which major languages definitively do not have even a single book translated, as of 2021? To my knowledge, there has never been a translation in: - Persian / Farsi - Indonesian / Malay - Filipino - Hindi, Marathi, Bengali, etc. ....We can probably skip the Esperanto translation. Ironically, there's been a MASSIVE surge in popularity for the TV show in India and Southeast Asia since only 2017. That's when HBO finally started promoting it heavily there, and actually produced localized dubs (putting real effort into making a decent Thai dub for the first time in 2017). In the later seasons of the show, India led the world in online piracy of the show. And according to analytics, this wasn't just casual viewing either; during Season 8, the top 5 countries discussing the show on Instagram (by volume) were the USA, Brazil, UK, India, and Germany. And starting in only 2017, there are YouTube channels in Hindi with hundreds of thousands of views, going through the entire series, but I think much of it is fans trying to make their own amateur translations and explain them to other Hindi speakers. And not just translated dialogue, I'm not sure if there's ever been an official translation for proper nouns and concepts from the books. EDIT: Interesting....GRRM himself remarked back in early 2017 that he'd just signed a contract to have the books translated into Azerbaijani (a Turkish language), marking the "47th" language the books have been translated into: https://grrm.livejournal.com/516673.html 47th, yet a hand count of the wiki's list reveals only 38. Well, I counted variants as one thing; maybe European and Brazilian Portugese are counted as two different languages? And traditional vs simplified Chinese? Even so we're about half a dozen short. And GRRM himself states in this specific comment to that blog post from January 2017, that there is no Hindi translation:

This "Young Rhaenyra and Alicent" artwork is mind-blowingly good. Read the thread, where the artist explains they tried to base the clothes and hairstyles from various period pieces like "The Tudors". I seriously think we should investigate asking the artist to use it in the wiki:

yeah

Yes, Mystical. I want them to put more money into the animated "Histories and Lore" for House of the Dragon so they're not just (good) motion comics, but outright "high budget tie-in animated shorts" about different parts of the world, to sort of set them up as well as test the waters for future spinoffs.

Yeah I want to steer back to prequel discussion. Give me your e-mail so I can send it to you. It is 67 MB.

I saved a copy of that audio recording. I'll send it to you if you want. Their text-based report redacted out the worst of it. But this is getting off topic.

Yes....getting back on topic here..... I think that there are basically six prequel eras that they could, possibly, launch into immediately that don't overlap with each other. That is....you can't make "Targaryen Conquest" and "Sons of the Dragon" at the same time, that would all be one long "Targaryen Conquest" show. Targaryen Conquest (Conquest, Dornish War, Sons of the Dragon) Dance of the Dragons (what House of the Dragon is doing) - the Regency would need to be a sequel show Blackfyre Rebellion ("the life of Aegon IV and its aftermath", starting with A - his father Viserys II's "reign" during the kingship of his cousins Daeron and Baelor, B - Aegon IV's Blackadder-like corrupt reign, C - the actual Blackfyre Rebellion) Tales of Dunk & Egg (a 50 year period covering the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, through the verge of the fifth one) Robert's Rebellion (possibly starting with "Young Tywin and the Reyne Rebellion" as a bridge between the two eras, then Robert's Rebellion, through Greyjoy Rebellion) Old Valyria (use this as a springboard to spinoff other stuff from the World book about the Free Cities, Dothraki, Summer Isles, Yi Ti, etc.) The long reign of Jaehaerys doesn't have enough action for a TV show and has too many timeskips; maybe as a direct sequel to a "Targaryen Conquest" show if it's popular enough. I hope we see that as an animated bonus packed with House of the Dragon. Regency/Aftermath needs to be a sequel series to Dance of the Dragons. "Young Tywin and the Reyne Rebellion" is a one shot one season thing; and it kind of makes more sense to do that as a lead-in to Robert's Rebellion (which is relatively short; combined we could get four seasons out of "Robert's Rebellion") Targaryen Conquest and Blackfyre Rebellion would be great eventually, but for the moment there's just too much overlap with Dance of the Dragons. Shows need a mix of either "audience familiarity", "exciting new stuff", and substantial source material. Targaryen Conquest and the Dance of the Dragons have a little of each - general audiences would be familiar with the names, but it's got exciting new stuff, and decent amounts of source material. They're SO similar though - Targaryens running around with dragons - that the Dance wins out over the Conquest due to having much more source material. Blackfyre Rebellion, in contrast, isn't as familiar to a TV audience (they never mention the name "Blackfyre" in a live-action episode), it doesn't really have "exciting new stuff" - same locations but no dragons, and not nearly as much source material as Conquest or Dance. Dunk & Egg has full source material, the only narrativized prequel...for the first three instalments. Reasonably "familiar" as it's only 90 years out from Game of Thrones and older characters mention it. Not as many exotic locations, but deep source material and strong fanbase support balances that. Robert's Rebellion has extreme audience familiarity....decent source material, albeit for a short series lasting at best 3 seasons...and not really exotic new locations. Valyria is "exotic new locations", SOME name familiarity from the main series (Targaryens, dragons), but not much - it's hard to be both exotic and familiar, but that's an expected tradeoff...and only an outline of source material (mostly descriptions of the different Valyria provinces from the World book). But stacking up say, Valyria vs Blackfyre Rebellion....Valyria is so "different" from the other five big prequel eras that it stands out. In short, the selling points and major cons: Robert's Rebellion - audience familiarity Dunk & Egg - extensive source material (to start with), decent audience familiarity Dance of the Dragons - substantial source material, decent audience familiarity Targaryen Conquest - less source material than Dance, better audience familiarity, largely similar locations to Dance Blackfyre Rebellion - scant source material, marginal general audience familiarity, no new locations Valyria - exotic new locations, low source material or initial name recognition So I don't think this new second wave of pitches will, or should, include Targaryen Conquest or Blackfyre Rebellion. Save that for the third wave years from now. Though I do hold out hope for this renewing interest in the Valyria pitch (one of the original five pitches)

yeah

yeah

...a reasonable deduction.

I just checked the afterward in my copy, it says "they go to Essos" but don't mention them joining a sellsword company. What's that from?

The morons running the TV show "kinda forgot" about that and never mentioned it even by the final season, except for one line in Season 1 where Aemon says Rhaegar was his nephew. This is probably going to be a soft reboot anyway, but.....AT A CERTAIN POINT, we made the horrific realization that we were doing a better job of keeping track of their statements than the writers themselves. Benioff & Weiss and Cogman never bothered to keep track of anything. They said Aerys II was Aegon V's son not his grandson. They also off-handedly mentioned a "Maegor the Third" without explanation. They're con men faking their way through it who NEVER paid attention. We'd...WE would be the ones keeping "Aerys is the son of Egg" alive, FOR THEM, because it's not like Cogman himself put much effort into enforcing that. Why perpetuate their own continuity errors that they NEVER bothered justifying? We sort of assume they did this to make Aemon closer to Aerys, but it came up so infrequently in dialogue...what was the point? And the insulting way Cogman handled this; even in direct Q&A, asked "is this an official change" he'd just respond with a blunt "yes"....without ELABORATING on WHY they did it.

....you want Daemon Blackfyre to survive to be leading rebellions at age 70? And how the heck would the Second Blackfyre Rebellion plot even work out with the original Daemon still alive? That's silly.

Dread Pirate Roberts?

My attempt to map out the Dunk & Egg stories, as Martin has said that 3 are finished out of a planned 12: 1 - The Hedge Knight - Ashford Tourney Between the first and second novellas, Dunk & Egg travel to Dorne, take up service with the mad Lady Vaith, sail down the Greenblood with the Orphans, take a ship at Planky Town, fight off some sea raiders, then arrive at Oldtown to meet Egg's brother Maester Aemon. Meanwhile, plague devastates all of Westros but Dorne and the Vale (which closed their mountainous borders in time), thus Dunk & Egg were spared. All of this happens off-screen but is ripe for inclusion. 2 - The Sworn Sword - aftermath of the plague, now a severe drought. Conflict at Standfast. Lady Rohanne. Mostly "setup" as this is the first time the Blackfyre Rebellion is explained. 3 - The Mystery Knight - the "Second Blackfyre Rebellion" As yet unpublished: 4 - The She-Wolves of Winterfell - Dunk & Egg travel to Winterfell to take up service to fight off ironborn raids, but there are 5 different Stark widows at the castle due to lords dying in rapid succession, each jockeying for power. 5 - The Village Hero - Dunk & Egg wander into the Blackwood-Bracken feud. Probably setting up Egg's future wife and queen, Betha Blackwood. Martin has - oddly - said that after Winds of Winter is done, he'll release EITHER She-Wolves or the Village Hero, but not both (he hasn't decided yet). They're both mostly complete. I put She-wolves first just because I still hope we get it (not just for Winterfell, but because it's where they were initially heading in Mystery Knight). Other titles for future instalments include: -The Sellsword -The Champion -The Kingsguard -The Lord Commander So there are SEVEN later Dunk & Egg stories that Martin won't get to "until after the main ASOIAF series is finished". From The World of Ice & Fire sourcebook, we can glean some of the major events in their later lives: Third Backfyre Rebellion Peake Uprising - Egg's father King Maekar dies, Egg succeeds him after a Great Council Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion Broken Marriage Alliances: Jenny of Oldstones, revolt by Lyonel Baratheon, duel of LC Duncan vs the Laughing Storm "The Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig" The Tragedy of Summerhall (death of D&E, birth of Rhaegar) That's only SIX major events, however. They'd probably fit in mention of background stuff like Tytos Lannister gradually losing control of the Westerlands and King Egg having to send royal armies in three times to restore order - though the actual Reyne Rebellion happens after the War of the Ninepenny Kings (Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion) and thus after Dunk and Egg die. Who the heck are "The Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig"? More curiously, how could these bandits have been active for 30 years? If they both caused Aelora's suicide, and also led a revolt that Egg's son Daeron died crushing? As for the marriage alliance scheme, the plan was Prince Duncan to Lyonel Baratheon's daughter, Jaehaerys II to Celia Tully, Princess Shaera to Luthor Tyrell, and Daeron to Olenna Redwyne. Duncan abdicated to marry a commoner (the mysterious Jenny of Oldstones); brief Baratheon uprising settled when Egg's youngest daughter Rhaelle married Lyonel's son Ormund; Jaehaerys II eloped with his own sister Shaera; and by that point, Daeron didn't want to marry Olenna and given that his older two brothers got out of arranged marriages they let him too, and Olenna married Luthor Tyrell. ....I'm still not sure. I can only think of six out of seven major events. Maybe if Jenny of Oldstones and Jaehaerys/Shaera are two separate stories.