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The Dragon Demands

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  1. The Dragon Demands

    Game of Thrones Prequel Production Date Set

    I made an analysis video trying to match up the 11 actors we know of with the 14 roles described in casting sheets - a catchup video on all casting news since last September. Only 3 cast members even vaguely match up. A lot of these really haven't been cast yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYS314DIPI8
  2. Video from Variety. On the Emmys red carpet, GRRM speaks of "5 prequels" and that they range from "just 100 years ago" to "5,000 years ago". The question of course, is: was he just speaking loosely, and we shouldn't take this as factually accurate? We know some prequels got ruled out. 5,000 years ago was the rise of Valyria but that doesn't seem to be "a prequel" as such. Maybe he was just talking about prequel eras in general. Odd that he says 5 pitches - maybe he just got used to saying 5. We thought Cogman left after he signed on to Amazon - though it's possible someone else picked up his idea?
  3. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    What was the specific citation for red temples in Valyria? I assumed there were, but... Mossovy needs certainty for wiki purposes. Also it kind of feels like their version of Russia.
  4. I don’t know if parental crosses are in effect, such as Balerion x Quicksilver yielding Dreamfyre.
  5. The Dragon Demands

    The ASOIAF wiki thread

    I already made a page on “chimera” as Fire and blood is the first time that term was used. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chimera ....given that the only identification given for them by Barth is essentially to say that they were some KIND of chimera, it may make sense to go with that. Not that they are named “Chimeras” capital C - but that they are apparently a specific strain of chimera-creature. And thus list them off as a subsection on that page. I’ll try a write up.
  6. ….then where did she get the money for her ship?
  7. Another coloration issue is that...in heraldry terms, "argent" can mean anything from silver to white, grey gets mixed in there, and "or" can mean a range of colors from "gold" to yellow to orange. Syrax was "yellow", but Sunfyre was outright "gold", like the metal. Meanwhile, some dragons had eye coloration - does that match their secondary color? Meraxes had gold eyes....does that mean she had gold horns and crest? The Cannibal was coal black, but with "baleful green eyes" - so were his horns green too or not? Unclear. The only colors we never found out fall into three clusters: Vhagar, "the three sons of Rhaenyra" (Vermax-Arrax-Tyraxes) and "hatchlings during the Dance" (Stormcloud, Morghul, Shrykos). So, playing around with the frankly fanfic assumption that coloration is an indication of heredity, AND that size class roughly indicates generation, AND that Vhagar didn't lay more eggs later in life, just playing around with this, we have: Generation 1: Balerion - Black, with red highlights Meraxes - Silver, with "gold eyes" (Gold highlights?) Vhagar - Unknown Generation 2: Vermithor - Bronze, with Tan Silverwing - described as yes, "silvery" in F&B. Confirmed "Female", probable egg-layer. Dreamfyre - light blue, with silver. Egg-layer. Quicksilver - "silvery" Caraxes - blood red Meleys - scarlet red, with copper highlights. Egg-layer. Syrax - yellow The Cannibal - coal black, with baleful green eyes Sheepstealer - an ugly "mud brown" Generation 3: Sunfyre - shining gold, with pale pink wing membranes Tessarion - dark cobalt blue, with copper highlights. Egg-layer. Seasmoke - pale silver-grey Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes - unknown Grey Ghost - pale grey-white Moondancer - pale green, with pearl highlights Morning - technically Gen-3, given that she was confirmed laid by Syrax. Pale pink, with black highlights. Generation 4: Stormcloud Morghul Shrykos I think it probable that Morghul and Shrykos were laid by Tessarion, hence "the Blue Queen". Stormcloud may have been laid by Syrax for all we know. Colorations all unknown. So for the Gen-2's....let's assume color transmits, and that Vhagar was green/bronze. In that scenario: Vermithor gets bronze from mother Vhagar Silverwing, Quicksilver, and Dreamfyre all got their silver coloration from Meraxes Caraxes and Meleys got their red coloration from Balerion's secondary color, Meleys more probably a Meraxes-Balerion pairing (both "Mer-" names), unclear. ….ah, screw it, this falls apart. Too many assumptions.
  8. Alright, I've been going over my notes on various topics. Now we turn to dragon lineages (narrow focus, not the more "magic" questions about Dragon behavior). Unfortunately, we learned very little new information in Fire & Blood: Morning is the only new coloration we learn: pale pink, with black crest and horns. It still doesn't directly state what color Vhagar was. Morning is also technically the first dragon with a confirmed parent: her egg was laid by Syrax For some reason, the "half a dozen hatchlings" mentioned in Sons of the Dragon was changed to "a dozen hatchlings" in Fire & Blood version. Largely irrelevant, as sometimes hatchlings die, or got eaten by the Cannibal, so a count of "unnamed hatchlings" doesn't amount to much. Dragons started being born deformed and twisted close to and after the Dance. Not only that Rhaena's first hatchling died within hours, but the deformed monster that hatched for Alyn Velaryon's daughter Laena. Wingless/armless, killed after it hatched and attacked her. I fear we may see more of this in Volume 2. The poisoning of the Maesters? Who knows. But beyond our current scope.... Which of Jaehaerys's children were dragon-riders - and which dragons knew prior riders: His eldest son Aemon claimed Caraxes, his second son Baelon claimed Vhagar (unridden since Visenya's death), and Baelon's sister-wife Alyssa had Meleys. Meleys was the fastest dragon in her youth. It's remarked that the "female" dragons were regularly laying eggs. It's definitively stated that no one ever saw Sheepstealer again. Earlier line in World book that "their fate wasn't known until years later" simply refers to that guards stumbled on her in the Mountains of the Moon at one point, explaining how they know the Burned Men worshiped her - but stating neither of them were ever seen after that. And of course, the biggest information: all but stated that Daenerys's three dragon eggs are not from Asshai, but actually stolen from Dragonstone, and thus part of the Targaryen dragon lineage. Obviously, I'm dealing with Watsonian speculation, and we must remain cognizant of the Doylist "Maybe Martin himself doesn't know or didn't think this out". I.e. we can speculate what color Vhagar SHOULD be, but Elio has said "Martin just plain didn't think of it yet" for the World book. "Dragon generations" are an inherently problematic question, given that their eggs can lay dormant for many years. It DOES seem implied that the Targaryens at this time were regularly hatching them not long after they were laid (into hatchlings who didn't always survive) By the Dance of the Dragons, at least, I FUNCTIONALLY group them into size classes - which usually correlate with age. Helps to remember it by number of each (1 Super-Large, 8 Large, 8 Medium to Light, and 3 hatchlings; adds up to 20 dragons): Super-Large: Vhagar Large: Vermithor, Silverwing, Caraxes, Meleys, Syrax, Dreamfyre, Sheepstealer, the Cannibal Medium to Light: Sunfyre, Tessarion, Seasmoke, Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, Grey Ghost, Moondancer Hatchlings: Stormcloud, Morghul, Shrykos That's just how I remember it / memorized it from reading TPATQ. Also it's kind of broad - sort of like dogs or horses, there's variation, sometimes you just get an unusually small older one or unusually fast-growing young one. Dreamfyre is one of the second generation dragons - the first one we heard about after Quicksilver, Fire & Blood confirms, but she was notoriously "slender" and delicate-looking. Sometimes you just get a slender greyhound compared to a mastiff. And "Medium to Light" ranges from Sunfyre to Moondancer - Sunfyre was not considered "huge" but turned out to be a very formidable fighter, while on the other end of the spectrum, Moondancer was barely big enough to carry a young girl. Heirs of the Dragon section just mentions the younger generation's dragons as they pop up, but while it gives dates for Vermax-Arrax-Tyraxes it doesn't for the greens' dragons. (shrug) It does seem that Syrax was near the end of that older generation of "huge" dragons by the Dance. I mean, she's called "huge" but it was Rhaenyra who named her, she had no prior rider, and she was a couple of decades younger than Caraxes or Meleys. What's the break between Syrax - youngest of the "large" and Sunfyre, largest of the "mediums"? Whatever. Dragon reproduction as you all know allows them to switch back and forth from male to female - in real life animals that do engage in "Sequential Hermaphroditism", they only actually change sex ONCE, not back again, btw. WE know they can switch, but what's interesting is that there are dragons THEY consider "female" because they saw them laying eggs. The wrinkle added to this by Fire & Blood is that the ones they thought were female actually laid eggs pretty regularly, it says. It's not "oh we saw Tessarion laying an egg ONCE so we realized she was female". Those who did lay eggs laid them frequently, while the allegedly "male" ones either didn't, or did it rarely enough and in seclusion that they didn't know. The regular egg-layers were called "Queens", and included: Vhagar - considered female, had eggs with Balerion ("Balerion, Vhagar, and their get") Dreamfyre - laid multiple clutches of eggs, some of which hatched Meleys - the Red Queen Tessarion - the Blue Queen Silverwing - ….considered female, not called a "Queen", but a mated pair with Vermithor. Quicksilver and Caraxes are referred to inconsistently: Quicksilver is usually called female, Caraxes usually male, and this is a question for the "Errata" section.... So this is just idle speculation. The problem of course is that the Targaryens may have had other eggs that the original four besides Balerion left behind on Dragonstone - siblings of Vhagar and Meraxes. Another fear is that they never knew, in universe, who laid which eggs....though they considered some dragons female because they laid eggs, so clearly they must have SEEN them lay eggs. Why call Tessarion an egg-layer if they never saw her lay them? And Dreamfyre laid some. And who the heck sired Dreamfyre's eggs? She laid two clutches before Rhaena even started flying her, and another clutch...on Fair Isle? With no other dragons around? Years after Quicksilver died? (If Quicksilver even did sire them....in which case, why do they still consider it female?) At any rate, I'm reasonably sure that Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes were hatched from eggs laid by Syrax, and that they were sired by Caraxes…..given the way that Heirs of the Dragon phrases it, that Syrax, Caraxes, and Vhagar were spending a lot of time together: It seems clear from this that Caraxes at least sired some eggs with Syrax - though not 100% confirmed they became Vermax etc. The only other bit of info is that when the Dragonpit was finished in 56 AC, Balerion was kept there along with "three younger dragons" - and it's also stated that Vermithor and Silverwing were kept separate at the Red Keep, and Dreamfyre was with Rhaena at Harrenhal. These three younger ones were probably Vhagar, Caraxes, and Meleys - the three dragons claimed by Jaehaerys's children. It isn't impossible that one of them was Syrax, but she only starts being mentioned decades later when Rhaenyra claimed her, so I doubt it. Not one of the Medium to Lights. Plus the Cannibal and Sheepstealer were never kept at the Dragonpit…..and how the heck did some dragons go "wild" when unclaimed? Wouldn't they keep them in the Dragonpit? Or is it that they can't really keep them there if they don't want to stay? (shrug) At any rate, there were 21 named dragons after the three Conquest-era ones. 20 during the Dance, minus Vhagar, plus Morning and Quicksilver. That's not an impossible number to work with, really. "Generation 3" might be difficult, but the immediate second-Generation dragons...we might have more luck... So we're moving ahead with a god-damned big assumption that: 1 - Eggs hatched fairly quickly or not at all. Thus the pre-Conquest four dragons didn't leave behind other eggs which later hatched, and third-generation dragons usually hatched soon after they were laid. 2 - Vhagar stopped laying eggs as she got older. Otherwise, Shrykos could be one of Vhagar's for all we know. ….(sigh) it's easier to start with the second generation, at least, though using the assumption that none of them are from those original four, but all sired by Balerion (by either Vhagar or Meraxes): Dreamfyre, Meleys, Silverwing we're considering "egg layers". Assuming Quicksilver didn't leave any....I think...ah, crud..... I think Quicksilver was probably laid by Meraxes, as they were both silver, and kind of makes sense that her son would have her dragon's progeny. I don't know if coloration indicates anything definitively, as with dogs or horses. They had "a dozen" hatchlings near the end of Aegon I's reign, but only half that many by 56 AC? Our only other, frankly BAD guess is Dragon Coloration as indicating anything. Which it might not. It's no accident that Drogon looks like Balerion: he's not just a reincarnation or something, he may literally be Balerion's SON....or perhaps, grandson. …..interesting that just as Meraxes was silver/white with gold highlights, Viserions is white-cream with gold highlights.... My functional guess is actually that it Vhagar was GREEN, with bronze highlights, so that Daenerys's trio are an exact mirror of the original set (that's Rhaegal's coloration).
  9. The Dragon Demands

    Dangling plot lines/characters from FaB

    Ah....actually that may be probable...
  10. The Dragon Demands

    The ASOIAF wiki thread

    Going through my notes.... I want to make an article on....the things that killed Aerea Targaryen. What the heck do I title it? Were they, in fact, some form or larval stage of "Firewyrms"? Giving them a name imposes assumptions. This may be sensitive enough to ask GRRM if it's appropriate. Regardless....er….what title does Elio think we should use?
  11. The Dragon Demands

    The ASOIAF wiki thread

    Thank you for the added reference templates Rhaenys they are a great help.
  12. The Dragon Demands

    Dangling plot lines/characters from FaB

    Ever since I read the World book, after TPATQ, I was personally convinced that "Fake-Daeron" who shows up later in the Regency of Aegon III, is actually the bastard son of Aemond Targaryen with Alys Rivers. And that he'll probably ride the Cannibal. It's called "Chekov's Gun" people!
  13. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] F&B poll

    I jumped out of my seat when I read about the crenellation taxes....I wrote my master's thesis on those....
  14. I try to picture this guy in a live-action adaptation or something: "AHH! You have a WOMAN'S skin my lord! I'll wager that it's never felt the taste of the lash. I'll wager that it's never been flayed off by a pirate chief, to make a pair of fine stockings for his best cabin boy..."
  15. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] The Sons of the Dragon (extended version)

    It says for the Faith Militant that "in the Reach, Trident, Vale, they rose. Ragged Silas, Septon Moon, Dennis the Lame" Given that Septon Moon rose in the riverlands, does this imply that Ragged Silas was in the Reach, and Dennis the Lame in the Vale? It still doesn't clearly explain what the Gulltown chapter of the Warrior's Sons was doing. King's Landing chapter - wiped out at Burning of the Sept of Remembrance Starry Sept - mostly wiped out at the Battle of the Great Fork of the Trident Oldtown - mass-arrested in a coup by the Hightowers to save the city from Maegor and Visenya's wrath on dragons. Three-fourths chose to join the Night's Watch (where they caused problems later...) Lannisport - led by Joffrey Doggett, major thorn in Maegor's side, ultimately controlling the northern half of the Westerlands in all but name Gulltown - UNKNOWN Why does it say at times that Joffrey Dogget was the "self-proclaimed" Grand Captain of the Warrior's Sons? At other points it says they chose him in an election after the previous leader died in the trial by seven.
  16. The Dragon Demands

    Lack of pre-Jaehaerys roads

    They explain that: the Faith Militant was there for centuries, to help travelers and trade caravans along the more primitive local roads. When they got rid of the Faith Militant, overland travel ground to a halt. Jaehaerys realized they needed high-quality, official highways to speed travel along (bandits usually ambush when travelers get slowed down by muddy local roads; a real highway that stays in good condition you can speed along and it doesn't need a standing guard force like the Faith Militant).
  17. The Dragon Demands

    The Carter Presidency And The Game Of Thrones

    Carter spoke at my mother's college once while on his election campaign. She said she thought he was an idiot.
  18. The Dragon Demands

    When is the wiki of ice and fire going to be updated?

    We're not miracle workers, darn you! https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Special:Contributions/The_Dragon_Demands
  19. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    Okay, I'm going through my hand-written notes...I was busy for weeks with work/holidays and a slow close-reading..... But to refocus discussion away from Jaehaerys's children to a few other details gleaned...…(family tree questions will be handled in the thread on those)…. I've been trying to work out objective facts for wiki articles..... Where was the "Pepper Coast"? (See Wiki article writeup I made: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pepper_Coast It would be interesting to see a short history novella or extended MUSH historical note on...how Dorne was affected by the First Dornish War. It sounds almost like they got off easy, even though they were basically "glassed" and should not have been doing well in Jaehaerys's reign. It says the population of the Seven Kingdoms doubled under Jaehaerys's reign....north of Dorne. For that matter, the Targaryens ended petty lords feuding with each other over local bickering....that may have continued even in Dorne. How did they recover enough for Morion to be trying to attack just for the hell of it? The Night's Watch mutiny of 50 AC, under Maegor's Kingsguard leading Faith Militant....it says that only one in ten of the Watch joined them....given that there are 19-ish castles on the Wall, and they commanded 2 castles, does that refer to "they controlled a tenth of the castles"....or that there was chaotic fighting even at these castles? I think the former. Is the Shivers supposed to be an early version of the Great Spring Sickness? It sounds like a re-use of that trope ("A third of the Most Devout died")….though granted, that's just what a "plague" does. This is the earliest confirmed chronological mention of the religion of R'hllor, the Lord of Light. When considering who Jaehaerys should marry at the start of his reign, it's mentioned that R'hllor is one of the gods worshipped in Tyrosh. We don't know much of the history of that religion, other than a stray mention in the World book that red temples have spread a lot "in the past century" for some reason. This confirms it's been established in the Free Cities since at least 250 years ago (though I would assume it's probably ancient). Alysanne says that even if they marry her off to "The King of Mossovy and the Lord of the Grey Waste", she'll find her way back to Jaehaerys. This led to debate on wiki: does the Grey Waste actually HAVE a "Lord"? It's a wasteland. Or is Alysanne just speaking fancifully? Similarly, does Mossovy actually have a "King"? Or a "Prince"? Or a single ruler at all? I'm not sure if she was speaking literally. Similarly, Saera saying "oh I'll marry the King Beyond the Wall" doesn't mean there actually was one at the time More notes as I get them....
  20. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    As possible as any, but no clear confirmation. ...does fit that the Hartes are "petty lords" of not much note otherwise....we shall see...
  21. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    There weren't that many other dragons during their reign. Vermithor, Silverwing, Vhagar, Caraxes, and Meleys were claimed. Dreamfyre was claimed by Rhaena during most of this time, but then she died... Many of their children died young. Vaegon wanted to be a maester and Maegelle a septa, so that explains them, minus the three who were dragon-riders, that leaves four: Daella, Saera, Viserra, and Gael. All died very young. The section explains rather clearly that...Daella was terrified of everything. Even cats. Fragile and delicate. No surprise she didn't want to be a dragon-rider. Saera...tried to steal Balerion, but got stopped at the last minute. She was too irresponsible for a dragon. Gael was young and simpleminded. The only one I actually find confusing is that Viserra never tried to claim a dragon - but again, she died young in a drunken horse-race. I actually feel bad for Viserra: she wasn't Saera, so brazen she would defy her parents' command for an arranged marriage. From her comments, she was NOT trying to run away, she just slipped out of the castle for the stated purpose of "a final fling before I have to marry Lord Manderly". She'd have gone through with it.
  22. The Dragon Demands

    [SPOILERS] Jaehaerys and Alysanne

    Possibly, but like Walton Stark and Alaric Stark, there's wiggle room to say there was an older sibling who ruled briefly then died young or something.
  23. The Dragon Demands

    Scribes of Caution for Young Girls

    I seriously suspect Martin was mocking the tv show in this
  24. Surely you can’t be serious?
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