The Dragon Demands

yeah

yeah

I don’t think any of this will happen in the books

Rejoice.

the tide has turned

Has anyone been able to identify any specific new info in the World app update which just came out?  I just got the update but can’t discern what’s new.

23 hours ago, Ran said:

I'd be hesitant to give any name to it, and because of that I'm not sure it merits its own article. I guess it was parasitic, so in that sense any other parasites mentioned in the course of the series and other texts could be lumped together into a Parasites article (assuming we don't have one already).

I already made a page on “chimera” as Fire and blood is the first time that term was used.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Chimera 

....given that the only identification given for them by Barth is essentially to say that they were some KIND of chimera, it may make sense to go with that.  Not that they are named “Chimeras” capital C - but that they are apparently a specific strain of chimera-creature.  And thus list them off as a subsection on that page.  I’ll try a write up.

Going through my notes....

I want to make an article on....the things that killed Aerea Targaryen.

What the heck do I title it?

Were they, in fact, some form or larval stage of "Firewyrms"?

Giving them a name imposes assumptions.

This may be sensitive enough to ask GRRM if it's appropriate.  

Regardless....er….what title does Elio think we should use? 

Thank you for the added reference templates Rhaenys they are a great help.

Ser, that was an extremely technical and obscure use of arcane and trivial knowledge about medieval society.

(bows)

I doff my hat in respect.

Do turkeys exist in Westeros?  Problematic, as they are a New World animal.

At the Fire & Blood launch event last night, GRRM joked that he’s not sure what people in Westeros would have for Thanksgiving, as “turkeys don’t exist”.  

This made the rounds on Twitter reports, prompting many to point out Theon chasing a “turkey” in book one.

Explanation?

Yes, I was going to ask about a prominent December 20 warning too.

Yeah...that makes sense.  Summer Islander sugar barons?  

First you get the sugar, then you get the money, then you get the power...

@Ran

Question:  I made an article on "Silk", because there's already a few on "substances" - that is, there was enough specific info about "Silk in the storyverse" to merit generating an article.  Sheep are sheep, no need to define that.  But I listed off all the citations that "Silk mostly comes from Yi Ti, often via Qarth" and also Naath.  Etc.  Just to point out "these are the regions that produce this substance and these are the ones that do not". 

....thinking of other major cash crops....where does Westeros get Sugar from?

Because we've seen people eating sugar confections in King's Landing, Renly's army camp (from Highgarden), and little sugar skull candies in Dorne. 

Now I looked it up, and in medieval times, honey was the most common sweetener in medieval Europe.  They only started getting sugar cane after the Middle Ages, when it was produced in the Levant - but even then, the Arabs themselves got sugar cane from India.  Which was always the heart and center of the industry. 

So...which are the big sugar-exporting regions?

Great.

I've attempted to update the Elephants and Old Blood pages accordingly:  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elephants_(Volantis)

Quote

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Not least because the first quote is discussing the situation at the Doom, when the Old Blood were likely pretty exclusively tigers and so led Volantis into conquest and war. You have to pair this up with the rest of the talk of the ruinous cost of the wars, its ultimate failure, and the rise of the elephants, who would have made inroads among the Old Blood in the wake of the setback.

Ahhhh...I forgot that just because merchants might not be able to RUN for triarch, doesn't prevent an Old Blood triarch from courting the merchant vote.  

That politicians might not actually be "from" the constituency they court.

…..well, more simply, my question is:  as a rule...are Elephant CANDIDATES, such as Trianna, always Old Blood?  Would wealthy merchants NOT of the Old Blood of Valyria be forbidden from running even as Elephants?

yeah

yeah

I was looking over the Volantis political party articles and hope we can get some clarification.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Elephants_(Volantis)

What is the distinction, if any, between "freeborn landholders" in Volantis, and those of the Old Blood, who can trace their ancestry back to Valyria?  Do the Elephants differ from the Tigers on this?

Quotes from A Dance With Dragons:

Quote

"After the Doom it pleased the Volantenes to consider themselves the heirs of the Freehold and rightful rulers of the world, but they were divided as to how dominion might best be achieved. The Old Blood favored the sword, while the merchants and moneylenders advocated trade. As they contended for rule of the city, the factions became known as the tigers and elephants, respectively.
 

Quote

"The triarchs are neither kings nor princes. Volantis is a freehold, like Valyria of old. All freeborn landholders share the rule. Even women are allowed to vote, provided they own land. The three triarchs are chosen from amongst those noble families who can prove unbroken descent from old Valyria, to serve until the first day of the new year. And you would know all this if you had troubled to read the book that Maester Kedry gave you." 

The first quote actually seems to imply that "the Old Blood" consists ONLY of the Tigers (the pro-war faction), while "the merchants and moneylenders" ARE SEPARATE from "The Old Blood" (the Elephant party, who advocate trade).  

The second quote, however, seems to indicate that while all "freeborn landholders" can VOTE, ONLY those of the Old Blood can run for triarchy - in EITHER party.  And thus the Elephant candidates must by definition ALSO be "Old Blood" families, albeit those who favor trade.

The two quotes contradict each other.  

So...are the Elephants Old Blood or not?

Oh...thanks!

…as you can see from the "Recent Changes" tab I started a round of updates on September 28:  a few new ones like Alaric Stark, Jonquil Darke, and updating others (Jaehaerys I, White Harbor).

….however, the wiki slowed down until it ground to a halt and editing became physically impossible, so I had to stop.  I suspect because the videos continue to play even in editing mode.  Didn't have a chance to start updating a family tree template for Alaric - btw, if we know his wife was a Mormont and some description of her but not her first name, does she get her own article? And in what title format? ("Wife of Alaric Stark"? "Lady Mormont (Alaric Stark)"?

What is the relationship between Alaric and Ellard Stark?  I left the note in the article.  Did Alaric..."supersede" Ellard, and "Ellard Stark" no longer exists as a character?  And Alaric is the renamed Ellard?

You've mentioned before there were issues regarding Ellard Stark and the chronology of which Stark ruled when that had to be updated due to new developments from GRRM (line got removed from World book as a result)

No Alaric Stark page until December 20? Etc?

What is the “semi canon” status, if any, of info coming out about the prequel TV pitches?

What is the canon status for Unseen Westeros art?

What are the copyright restrictions?

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 12:30 PM, Ran said:

George likes to keep it simple. He doesn't fuck around with making up definitions for measurements. That way lies madness.

Lord Jordayne was many things, ser -  loyal, witty, mayhaps even something of a sentimentalist - but mad?

MASSIVE Problem

Big enough that @Ran should ask GRRM about it directly (at some point, eventually in a list of errata)

I was working on that article I created on "Measurement" (subsection of Science & Technology), spinoff of brief notes from the old Concordance.... https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Measurement

Long story short, of the 7 base units of measurement, only 4 could possibly apply to a pre-modern civilization, and pre-moderns actually didn't have temperature scales either, narrowing it down to three:  Length, Weight, and Time.  Plus the derived units, i.e. from Length we get Area and Volume.  Time overlaps with cultural stuff with calendar systems.

I checked using electronic search, and Westeros pretty much uses the current Imperial system measurements used in the United States, familiar to GRRM's readers:  miles, feet, inches, acres of land, gallons of wine, hours, seconds, etc.  Calendar system is a bit unorganized (how long is each month?) but that's a whole other issue...

Only rarely does he use a few unfamiliar, pre-modern terms like "league" ( 3 miles) and of course "stone" weight (prominently appears at beginning of first novel:  if one stone in real life equals 14 pounds, and King Robert gained 9 stone, then he gained around 112 pounds...)

The problem happened when I started researching comparisons to other major Fantasy series, particularly Robert Jordayne's The Wheel of Time :

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Measurement
http://www.personal.ars-informatica.ca/paul/wot/wot.php?page=measures

While the Westlands in The Wheel of Time use commonly encountered real-life names, they do not correspond to real-life units.

Moreover, this was a subtle but pervasive background principle throughout the novel series...which he only explicitly stated in later novels.

Basically, "1 pound" is the same as a real life pound, "1 foot" is apparently the same as 1 foot in real life (based on character heights)…..BUT....they use a DECIMALIZED system.  Thus "1 pound" in WOT contains 10 ounces, not 16 ounces....so a WOT "ounce" is bigger than a real-life ounce.  Particularly, "1 foot" is divided into TEN "inches", not 12 as in real life, so each "WOT inch" is larger than in real life....which frequently comes up when discussing character heights.  This gets compounded in larger distances:  one WOT "mile" is actually 1.1 real-life miles.  (They also define "1 league" as 4 miles, not 3 miles as in ASOIAF).  

Moreover, "one week" in Wheel of Time CONTAINS 10 DAYS, not 7 days.  It's a pervasive background principle, but they rarely draw attention to it to spell it out to readers, up until you get confusing statements like "there are 3 more 2 day festivals this week".  

Thus, up until now, we all assumed that measurements given in ASOIAF basically correspond to their real-life measures.  Yet by explicit comparison, The Wheel of Time used real-life names for FICTIONAL systems (a "6 inch long blade" in Wheel of Time isn't actually 6 real life inches long).  

Martin has stated that "one year" for Westeros corresponds to one real life year, thus "one week" has 7 days, each day seemingly has 24 hours, etc.  

But we need to confirm, beyond time units:  is "one foot", "one acre", or "one gallon" defined like in current modern day usage?

He's stated "1 league is 3 miles" - is one mile like a modern mile?

The biggest one I have issue with is...twenty years old at this point, dating from the first novel:  we ASSUMED that "a stone" is equal to 14 pounds, because that's how much a real life "Stone" weight unit is.  Wheel of Time also uses a "stone" weight in its decimalized system....and thus defines a WOT "Stone" weight as 10 pounds.  

GRRM may also be intentionally using archaic units, to reflect medieval customary usage which was variable.

I'm freaking out at this, I never knew Wheel of Time did that.  

So can Elio & Linda confirm at some point, "by explicit comparison to how measurement systems are actually different in Wheel of Time, despite using the same names, do all measurement units mentioned in ASOIAF actually correspond to real life ones?  Particularly, the Stone weight?"

I think I stumbled onto something which I wrote as an update to the "Currency" page:  I was re-reading The Rogue Prince and realized it actually did give our first and only example of a numerical money value from the Dance of the Dragons era (or thereabouts).  This wasn't in the list before.

In the year 120 AC, of the Red Spring, when Laenor Velaryon was killed, his father Corlys Velaryon offered a reward of 10,000 gold dragons for information leading to the capture of his murderer.  

….which is curiously small, given that he was arguably the richest living man in Westeros, and Laenor was his only (legitimate...) son and designated heir.  Compare to the tournament prizes in 298 AC - 10,000 for the winning archer (albeit an extravagant kingdom-wide royal-level contest), 40,000 to the winner of the joust.  

…..but this is the opposite of the pattern seen in Dunk & Egg, when money values were HIGHER in spring years.

It's not my idea, I read it in a medieval economics paper about Westeros by Mondschein (which was great) regarding Dunk & Egg:

compare to the medieval warming and cooling periods (1000 to 1200, then 1300 to 1600's).  Every winter/summer cycle in Westeros would follow that pattern in miniature.  Basically, every "summer" is an economic "boom" period, every winter an economic "bust" period.  

Thus the first book of ASOIAF under Robert Baratheon, at the end of summer, is at the tail end of an economic growth boom, while stories set in SPRING would be after an economic bust just ended.  

Due to scarce goods & products, the numerical value of prices increases in winter...but by spring, so many workers have died that labor is scarce, so wages increase.   This makes everything balance out - 3 plus gold dragons is considered a fair price for a horse in the Dunk & Egg era, but 1 gold dragon is considered a fair price by Jaime and Brienne.  


….of course, Dunk & Egg is coming off of the First Blackfyre Rebellion not too long before, while The Rogue Prince is coasting along 70 years of economic prosperity and peace in the Targaryen golden age.  Which one affects price more? Prolonged peace, or seasonal-influenced economic growth cycles?

...my only tentative theory is that 70 years of Targaryen peace far outweighed seasonal influences on the economy, and thus money values would be LOWER in the lead-up to the Dance compared to the main novels (prices go up in times of scarcity, they go down in times of plenty).  All this is tentative.  (shrug)  We'll have Fire & Blood soon enough...